View Full Version : F8P - the truth is out there?
Hi all,
I'm interested in knowing the opinions of people on here that have kept Figure 8s as to their best environment.
There is so much conflicting information out there that it is hard to know which version is the truth.
For example another thread on here suggests that they need a pH > 8, but everywhere I look online says between 6.5 - 7.5. Mine are at a steady 7.5 at the moment.
Also there is the BW / FW debate. OK - it seems that the genral consensus on here is that BW is the way to go. But then I read elsewhere that they are FW fish and salt should be avoided. These links both say that FW is the natural habitat, although Ian West's site says BW is considered better by most.
http://aquaworld.netfirms.com/Other/Tetraodon_biocellatus.htm
http://www.pufferfish.co.uk/aquaria/species/pufferfish/types/tetrbioc.htm
Ian also states that the pH should be 7.
And another:
http://puffernet.tripod.com/biocellatus.html
So, I'd be really grateful if anybody that has had success in keeping these fish can share their experiences for the benefit of those of us that are new to the little beauties!
Cheers,
Ade.
Pufferpunk
05-01-2003, 9:27 AM
The man who wrote this article has been keeping puffers for over 40 years & has kept a F8 for 18years: http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/8puffer.shtml
Good link Pufferpunk, I seem to have overlooked that one. 18 years is a long time!
However this does serve to illustrate my point as his information conflicts with a lot of the other information.
Even fishbase.org has them as demersal FW:
Fishbase.org Fig8Puff (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=25175&genusname=Tetraodon&speciesname=biocellatus)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with anyone, I just thought it would be interesting to hear people's experiences.
Oh, and my next job is figuring (no pun intended) out how to get them into a (cycled :)) BW tank...
Cheers,
Ade.
Pufferpunk
05-01-2003, 4:08 PM
I assume you mean that the fish is in FW at the lfs & you want to get it into a BW tank? If there are no other fish in there, just get the SG to 1.002 in your tank, & acclimate like you had any other fish. You can raise the SG in time. If your SG is higher & you have other fish, put your new fish in a bucket & use an airline tube to syphon a drip system into the bucket. You will have to kink the hose to slow down the flow.
No, I mean that the fish are in FW and need changing to BW (although that was not the point of the thread).
I'm not going to go through the story again but I have two f8s in a freshwater tank, I agree they need changing to BW. I understand adding (marine) salt will cause the tank to re-cycle when it hits a certain SG. But like I say that was not the point of this thread.
OrionGirl
05-01-2003, 4:17 PM
That article was written by RTR--he's a very knowledgable guy, and I'd follow his advice.
To convert your existing FW tank to BW, you'll want to start by using BW for your water changes. Mix the water to the 'goal' sp, and over the course of several water changes the entire volume of water will be raised to this sp. Make sure to monitor the conditions in the tank, and use FW to replace evaporation losses.
Like I say I'm not arguing. I respect the opinions of those with more experience than myself (which isn't hard), which is why I'm changing my tank to BW and which is why the original point of this thread was to get people's (plural) experiences of Figure 8s.
There seems to be a lot of interest in these fish so it seemed to me stimulating discussion was not a bad thing. Or maybe we should all read one article and take this as the one word of truth?
Pufferpunk
05-01-2003, 4:49 PM
To me, RTR is a puffergod. The only person I've heard of that has kept puffers longer & may know about the keeping of more species is Dr Klaus Ebert, who has written a spectacular book about them, [\I]The Puffers of Fresh and Brackish Waters[/I] As far as I'm concerned what RTR says, goes. I don't question his expertise against any other site.
Some more articles written by RTR:
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/pufferreview.shtml
http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/intropuffer.shtml
http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/snailsforpuffers.shtml
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/ghostshrimp.shtml
http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/sapuffer.shtml
These are just the puffer articles I'm aware of. He has written countless other articles on almost any fish subject you can think of. You can find more in the archives at Tom's Place.
There is no one true path. Everyone has their own experiences and interpret those as they wish.
But as you have already found, there is no other group of fish with so much repeated bad info as the puffers. If you want the current best info, you have to leave the web and get Dr. Ebert's book. I do not agree with everything there, but where I do disagree it is matters of opinion, not fact. A review is here:
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/pufferreview.shtml
Figure-8s do not need high brackish. My feeling (note, personal feeling, not proven fact) is that they need the hard alkaline water more than a particular salt concentration.
If you take you specific gravity up no more than a counple of points per change, and wait 2-3 weeks between water mods (note, between specific gravity changes, not between partials), you are unlikely to read any unoxidized metabolites (ammonia, nitrite). If other bacteria are required or at least functional at those low sp. gr. differences, they will develop sufficiently to avoid fish stress. Should you read NH3/NO2, just drop back to the prior density for a few weeks.
Edit: LOL, double posted w/PP. In any case, I'm no puffer diety, just have a lot of tank-years of puffer keeping. And unfortunately had to learn a lot of things the hard way. These fish were considered FW community in the 1960s - live and learn.
Erm, I'm getting a bit confused about my ability to write in English now.
Please forgive my sarcasm, but why are people defending RTR? At what point did I say he was wrong? In fact I didn't even use the letters RTR in any of my posts. He seems from afar like a very experienced and succesful keeper of puffers and I respect his opinion. I have read most if not all of the articles at aquasource. I will say this one more time: I was trying to get people's opinions and share their experiences.
As far as I'm aware RTR is the only one to have done this so far, so why would I be having a go at him?
Edit: double LOL, double double post!!!!
OrionGirl
05-01-2003, 5:28 PM
I guess I wasn't defending him--he's pretty capable of doing that. I identified him as the author so you could look into some of his advice on other threads if you wanted, to review his experience. I didn't think you were saying anything bad about him, and I can think of several occassions where he has indicated that his way is not the only way, just the one that works and makes sense to him. I guess I was endorsing him more than anything...Though I am not sure about deifying him. ;)
MonoSebaelover
05-01-2003, 5:31 PM
Calm down! No one was disagreeing with you or RTR. They were just stating points. I currently have 3 Figs, one in a 55 Brackish tank with some Monos, Anableps, bottom gobies, and mollies. The other two are a school project and live in a 29 gallon at school that will be going in the 55 in about two weeks when school is over. My pH runs 7.8-8.2. Don't test DkH and kH. Salinity is about 1.010. I have had all three for one year now, since I got them. One (the one in the 55) was born with only one eye but that is no drawback for him!
Right, sorry - I need more Prozac :D
If I understand correctly you will be adding 2 more F8s to a 55g community tank with 1 F8 in it?
I'd be interested to hear your experiences with that as it is the future of my two that I am interested in. I'm tempted to keep them seperate (maybe even totally alone) but can't decide...
RTRs advice on slowly changing my tank to BW sounds like the way forward for now to me. At what SG would a FW tank recycle when adding salt or does it depend on other factors also (such as speed of salt addition etc)?
Thanks all for responding, I will try to be less sensitive in the future! (but not to my fish!).
Cheers,
Ade.
Pufferpunk
05-02-2003, 9:47 AM
I've never heard anyone state the exact SG that the bacterial change over occurs. I believe that if you raise the SG as slowly as Robert recomended, there will be no recycle, as the new bacteria will be developing while the old bacteria is dying.
Hey! I love to have defenders! Pamper me! ;)
I suggested the slow sp. gr. change because that is how I do the adjustment myself and it seems to work. But as I and others have said, there is no one true path.
But along with that massive hedge statement, there still is more misinformantion on puffers in print and on the web than other fish group I know. I do get bent out of shape when folks who have never kept puffers quote incorrect web sites to defend what they want do with their fish. These fish are very like the Cichlids and the Loaches - they are very long-lived, may for some species be slow to mature, and generally are highly specialized predators. All I realy want to do is light the flame thrower and tell those folks to post back in a year or two and let me know how their FW community 20 gal tank with 3 puffers is doing. Yes, there are significant differeces between species. Yes, there huge differences between individuals within a species. But the group still represents highly specialized creatures extremely well equipped to eat very hard, crusty foods. They also have strong demands on water quality. If you don't have personal experience with the adults from this group, listen to folks who do, or learn the hard way as I had to do. It does nothing to me if folk elect not to hear what I or PP or others do and say. I have done my "duty" to the fish by giving my experience - anything beyond that is up to the *********** and is their choice. I don't need to be the puffer police.
Back to topic:
I wish I knew the level where SW bacteria come into action and FW bacteria start weakening and die out. I have no idea. It is reported that they are different, but no one ever specifies the transition levels. That uncertainty is why I do slow changes. Puffers can handle in nature much larger shifts that that, but I don't know if capitve changes impossed on them do as well - to me there is a difference in what wild fish elect to do in response to growth and maturation and what changes ***********s force on them. So I take the conservative path and do my changes slowly.
Pufferpunk
05-02-2003, 10:43 AM
Also in the wild, their "tank" doesn't recycle no matter how quickly the SG is raised or lowered.
RTR,
Thanks for your input (and everyone else for that matter).
It was not my intention to quote misleading websites to back my argument, I was trying to illustrate the conflicting information available, and show how confusing it can be for people just starting to look after puffers (like me!).
My motivation is purely for the upkeep of my fish, having bought them ignorantly and then realising my mistake, I want to make the best habitat for them that I can. I guess my way of learning is to question everything! No harm in that in my book.
I fully intend to follow your advice regarding the gradual introduction of marine mix (in all honesty I was going to do it anyway, but thanks for the method you proposed). In fact after re-reading your excellent articles on aquasource I realised how much of your advice I had already taken regarding tank layout, lines of sight, overhangs etc. The tank is not arranged for my benefit at all, just for theirs! My wife thinks I'm mad, but there you go.
As for tank size, as soon as I have room (and money) I will put them in a much larger tank than they are in now. And keep my old one as a backup (in case one of them turns grouchy in their older age!).
Thanks again,
Ade.
SBA - my 'bent out of shape' comment was not aimed at you. If you browse other puffer threads here in the last month or two, you may run across some where I have gotten, shall we say, a bit testy?:o