Moorish Idol

[kbaker721]

Just curious, how hard is it to keep a Moorish Idol?

[gcvt]

Moorish Idols are very difficult to keep, even for experienced reef keepers. Feeding is the big issue here; the chances of getting them to accept any prepared or frozen foods is slim to none.

Personally, I don't think these fish should even be sold in stores or online - probably best left in the ocean. Those who do sell them usually won't guarantee them because of their dismal survival rate.

[kreblak]

A friend of mine in Tampa works as a professional in aquarium maintanance, set up, and cleaning. His clients are people with huge houses and LARGE (300 gallon + sized) saltwater aquariums. He has told me on numerous occasions about the difficulties involved with Moorish Idols. One of his clients was so enamored with how the Idol looked, that they continued to purchase them, one after another, and they just kept dieing. They went through 5 before they gave up, and this was in a professionally maintained aquaruim.

[ChilDawg]

Yeah, I haven't read anything good about keeping Idols in captivity. They are extremely attractive, but even large public aquaria have mixed successes. There are some Idols that will SURVIVE for a while in captivity, but almost zero will thrive in a hobbyist tank.

[squid]

I'm friends with the owner of an LFS in my area and because of the low prices and beauty of the Moorish Idol we've experimented with keeping them in home aquaria. I personally kept a beautiful specimen in a 90 gallon tank at home for 18 months. (Which is long for a Morrish Idol in captivity.) Here are a few tips if you want to give it a try.

1. We discovered that the most hardy specimens are collected from Hawaii. So start it off right with a good fish.

2. You must plan on it being the main show fish in your tank. But here is the trick: It needs to be a mature, stable tank without any swimming (competing) fish. So in order to give it a go I had to remove all of my water column fish and then immediately introduce the Idol.

3. Of course you must have great water conditions, though it doesn't have to be reef quality. And it needs some space to move so a 4 ft. wide tank or better is necessary.

4. Medium size (4 in) seems to be the most hardy, too small and they are too frail, too large and they are too cranky to acclimate. Acclimate the fish quickly (30 min) as they hate being in the bag very long. Keep the lights off for the first day or so. Turn the lights on low only to feed.

5. Start it off with live brine shrimp for the first week or two to get it eating comfortably. Transition to frozen brine and Mysid. Then to dried krill, plankton, then to flake/pellet if you wish. After about 4-6 weeks it should eat about anything. If your live rock has a good population of amphipods and other yummies all the better. They feed on the rock by blowing a "puff" of water at the targeted critter and then nab it when it floats up.

6. After a month or so you can begin to add smaller, community type tank mates.

When the Moorish Idol has decided it has had enough it will just die with no advance warning. Mine was eating fine and showing no signs of anything wrong one evening and then the next morning it was dead. It broke my heart because I thought after 18 months it was in for the long run.

HTH

[ChilDawg]

Why would anyone keep a fish that will die with no advance warning because it is ill-suited for captivity? That seems to be cruel to me. I would advise against keeping them unless you have a SERIOUS interest in advancing the field of Idolatry (the captive care of Moorish Idols) and I would actually start that by replicating the natural food of the Idol prior to keeping them.

This is what I eventually am thinking of doing prior to working with candiru in captivity, if such a thing is possible.

[squid]

Chil,

And I suppose you've never lost a fish.

Since the question was asked, and the only responses were all negative I thought I'd share the positive experience that I had with it. And I do consider the experience a positive one as it was a beautiful and active fish for the 18 months I had it.

For all I know I saved it from being eaten by a shark.

[ChilDawg]

I understand. However, I cannot condone the captive care of a fish which is so poorly-suited for the hobbyist's tank. Your positive experience aside, I would very much be interested in seeing a formula for the replication of the specialized food which the Idol eats in the wild before I see any more Idols being sold.

I have also seen that diets such as the ones proposed by you cause Idols to waste away as they cannot utilize the nutrition from these diets, and, over time, they just flat-out die.

By the way, if you were to look at "My Dorm Denizens," at the bottom of my posts, you would recognize that I have lost fish. Anyone who has not, hasn't been in the hobby for a significant length of time.

I am merely suggesting that homework be done with this delicate fish and its very specialized eating habits in the wild (and scientific replication of such foods being done) prior to purchase. If you don't like it, that's fine, but I find it to be a waste to keep a Moorish Idol without its complete natural nutrition, as it does not thrive without it.

Further on down the road, when there have been captive bred Idols enterring the hobby would be the time to experiment with new and different foods, but removing an animal from its natural habitat and failing to wean it off its natural foods (weaning involves using its natural foods, remember) IS A WASTE. You will not convince me otherwise.

We are at an impasse. If you wish to continue this discussion further, it would be my pleasure, but it would probably be as much of a waste (of time) as keeping a Moorish Idol in the aquarium without the specialized nutrition such fish regularly enjoy in the wild.

[slipknottin]

I believe Anthony Calfo summarizes the issue best in his book.

"Take information for what it's worth and consider the source. Your advisor may have the most beautiful aquarium that you've seen, but has that success been repeated numerous times for extended periods of more than just a few years? In fact, ask yourself how many marine aquarium systems you've seen that were established for more than ten years."

I must say that Moorish Idols have proven to be a very poor aquarium subject. That you advocate feeding the fish only brine shrimp for quite a period of time shows little knowledge of their natural eating habits. Moorish Idols are primarily sponge and algae eaters. Brine shrimp are quite poor in nutrients and can still result in various hunger problems despite being rapidly consumed. These problems can develop over long periods of time, or can happen relativly quickly.

I have heard from a few sources that they do not need to be the only specimen in a tank, and having other peaceful tankmates that readily accept flake or pellet food can 'teach' the Idol to accept these items as food. Whatever food you do choose, it needs to be a good source of sponge and algae.

And you are correct in that they do frequently experience shipping problems. The tramua of capture, shipping, and potential damage to their mouth makes this a very important part of selecting the proper specimen.

I am not advocating that nobody attempt to keep 'difficult' specimens, experienced fishkeepers need to occasionally 'adventure' into uncharted territory to see if there were things that had been overlooked in the failure to successful keep these organisms. However, these are not the proper fish to sell to anyone who has a less than stellar track record, as evidenced by their dismal success rates.

[inxs]

I think since Squid is speaking from experience, his comments are more valid then "I've heard" or "I've read".

Furthermore he is trying to be helpful by sharing his experience which may help others .

I understand the argument that their natural foods and habitat needs to be duplicated and captivebred stock should be developed to improve the survivalrate but:

Since both Slipknottin and Childawg doesn't believe in trying to keep fish which have a poor survivalrate, think about this - In the beginning of the hobby the survivalrates of almost all fish was low and the SW hobby was almost a guarantee that you would only have your fish temporarily. If everything had been abandoned right there and then a lot of fish and other animals would have been saved, right?

There is a difference between someone indiscriminently throwing a mandarin, seahorses, cleaner wrasses in a FO tank and has them die over and over vs someone who is trying to accomodate a specific species needs and documents it. The second person is trying to advance the hobby and is supplying some information to help things along.

If you don't have experience with something don't bash others who do and are trying to do something positive.

[ChilDawg]

I am going to stick by my convictions, but squid is certainly within his/her rights to keep the Moorish Idol. kbaker, I don't think that it is recommended to keep them, unless you have a large amount of experience, and some coralline algae and sponges in your tank will help the acclimation process, if such a process is possible with your particular specimen.

I would love to see much more research and many attempts to synthetically replicate those food sources before Moorish Idols are tank-kept, and tank-rearing and captive breeding would make me feel much more comfortable.

Again, it is your call as to whether or not you keep a Moorish Idol, but, if you do, have some sponges and coralline algae in your tank and I truly would wish you the best of luck.

P.S. Upon re-reading (OMG, I did reading, somebody shoot me for doing that...), Scott W. Michael considers there to be a chance of survival in captivity for these beauties, but a slim one (he gives them a 2/5 on his scale...5/5 means well-suited to captivity, and 1/5 means almost impossible to keep in captivity).

He also doesn't recommend them for anyone other than experts.

squid, if you are an expert, I apologize for talking down to you about this issue.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by inxs
I think since Squid is speaking from experience, his comments are more valid then "I've heard" or "I've read".
Are you speaking from experience or what youve read? I offered but one example of someone advocating the opposite of the advice offered by Squid. I submitted this as evidence to suggest that neither case could demonstrate any solid proof of care suggestions.


Furthermore he is trying to be helpful by sharing his experience which may help others . As are we


I understand the argument that their natural foods and habitat needs to be duplicated and captivebred stock should be developed to improve the survivalrate but:

Since both Slipknottin and Childawg doesn't believe in trying to keep fish which have a poor survivalrate, think about this - In the beginning of the hobby the survivalrates of almost all fish was low and the SW hobby was almost a guarantee that you would only have your fish temporarily. If everything had been abandoned right there and then a lot of fish and other animals would have been saved, right?

I have never stated that nobody should attempt to keep difficult fish. I have said that these fish are very demanding and do require expert care.


There is a difference between someone indiscriminently throwing a mandarin, seahorses, cleaner wrasses in a FO tank and has them die over and over vs someone who is trying to accomodate a specific species needs and documents it. The second person is trying to advance the hobby and is supplying some information to help things along.

Ah, so as long as you believe the intent is viable. So you would have no problem with me keeping a mandarin, seahorse, or cleaner wrasse in a FO tank as long as I was attempting to 'advance the hobby and supply information'?


If you don't have experience with something don't bash others who do and are trying to do something positive.

I never bashed anyone, I stated that an individual isolated experience means little compared to advice from those who have handled thousands of stock.

[inxs]

Slip - you did say that "That you advocate feeding the fish only brine shrimp for quite a period of time shows little knowledge of their natural eating habits."to squid who managed to keep a moorish idol alive for 18 months which he was documenting to help answer a question.

As far as natural foods go I know of no species that eat flake and pellet food in the wild but that is besides the point and just shows how you can take anything and argue it.

Most newborn fish and fry are raised on newly hatched brineshrimp which are more nutritious then the adults however to acclimate a fish and get it to start taking food it may be neccessary to start it of with something it will take - even if it is brineshrimp . Furthermore a week to two is not a long time.

If you want to further the success you might want to advocate gutloading the brineshrimp some enriched food and perhaps sponge. Or maybe there is a way to get them to take sponge? I don't know.

As for the mandarin, seahorse and cleanerwrasse it has been documented many times how and what difficulties you will run into. So that experiment has already been conducted if however you could add something to the equation and improve the success rate you are doing something positive. The cleaner wrasses removal from its home reef impacts the echosystem and isn't just related to problems keeping it in the tank but let's say you decide to develope some sort of contraption that hatches copepods and crustatians under an undergravelfilter that are slowly being distributed into the tank - now you may have solved the problem.

What I'm trying to say is : take someones success and try to build on it.

[squid]

Guys,

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion on this. I stumbled onto this board about a week ago and have found everyone's comments to be largely respectful and helpful. Differing viewpoints are what make discussions worth having. I thank God that we do have a diversity of experiences, knowledge, and opinions, and that we are not all Orwellian droids.

ChilDawg, I agree with you and I am also committed to the philosophy of being responsible aquarists and providing the best environment and diet possible for our fish. About being an expert, I believe that the only true expert is God Almighty, creator of heaven, earth, and all life. I am 45 years old. I started my first SW aquarium at age 33. I'm not a marine biologist by any means, and there is still much I don't know about the complexities of the marine world. I do, however, have some experience born of many mistakes and successes.

Regarding the Moorish Idol thing. Once acclimated and established as the dominant fish mine was willing to eat anything I offered. I provided a wide variety of foods including angel fish formulas with sponge, nori, shrimp, brine, mysid, flake, pellet, dried krill. I soak most foods in Kent Zoe. The live rock in the tank provided a steady supply of macro algae, and a variety of 'pods. I am of the opinion that if you have the experience and are willing to give it the time, research, and resources necessary the Moorish Idol (along with other delicate marine species) may be a viable fish option. If you are not experienced and committed then stick with the many other varieties of beautiful and hardy marine life.

Keep in mind that not so many years ago the keeping of SPS, and LPS corals was generally viewed as foolish and impossible for the home aquarist. Now with much time, trial, error, experience, and learning they are not only thriving, but also being propagated by home aquarists. And for the betterment of the whole marine keeping lifestyle I might add.

jmho

[ChilDawg]

Okay, then I am sorry for having made such a big deal out of the Idol: you were speaking from experience, and you have had a good length of time in the SW hobby. I am glad that the discussion returned to intellectualism rather than the tense near-flames it had almost hit.

I realize that the corals mentioned above were at one time considered very tough to keep, and consider the experimentation done with regard to keeping them to have culminated (well, hopefully not CULMINATED) with positive results.

Looks like you can teach me a thing or two about the SW hobby. I hope that you stay here for a long time so that many others can benefit from your expertise.

[dezso]

If was your first Moorish idol you did good with 18 months. Usually mostly they perish after 2 max. 3 months. Me personal I have at the present two Morris idols leaving in may reef tank for the past two years with a pair of Spotted Mandarins (Synchiropus picturatus) and one Regal Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) The spotted mandarins spawn already twice, 3 fries survived . I started up a tall 65 gallon tank 5 years ago, just fish for one year then I converted over to reef tank. Two years lather I put the Moorish idols in. I have 5 mangrove plants a lots of caulerpa, seaweed or blade (prolifera), feather (ashmeadii), grape (racemosa) and some shaving brush (penicillus capitatus) on the rocks and the glass, 65 pound live sand 90 pound live rock. When I converted over to reef tank I build a 15 gallon refugium to hang in the back of the tank with fine sand,mud and live rock pieces some caulerpa and tons of bugs. I grow sponges in the sump (35 gallon), not the fancy ones. I feed them with freshwater mysis shrimp (crude protein 65.5 %) sponges and the rest from the tank.
I hope this will give you some hints squid. anywise you did a good job keeping him so long, you my bee one of that peoples who vill start breading them in tanks so same day the rest of as will have tank breaded moorish idols.

For slip just in case,

"However, these are not the proper fish to sell to anyone who has a less than stellar track record, as evidenced by their dismal success rates."

I started my first fresh water tank in 1974 first salt in 1981 My father was fish breeder in late 60-s and 70-s Angel, Diskus, Neon,

[MonoSebaelover]

Welcome to Aquaria Central! The biggest issue with them is believed to be the collection method. They don't do well during collection which leads to their untimely demise, which is usually within 2-3 months post collection. I had tried one like 3 years ago and got him to eat and happy and established, no changes, then all of a sudden came down with ich and was gone. Have never tried one again and never will cause that is one fish that should remain in hte ocean.
Slip isn't around any more...this thread is 3 years old :)! Anyway hope this helps and good luck and welcome to Aquaria Central!