Learning to quarantine everything...the hard way...

[Subliminal]

Recently I've lost my two favorite fish to the ich. Well, 3 if you count the coral beauty I took back to the petstore.

Anyway, ich in my main tank bad.

But the tank is full of live rock, inverts and corals. So nothing to be really done to the main tank except for it to sit for 2 months w/o fish to get rid of the ich entirely.

So, this weekend I took ALL the coral and ALL the LR and stuck them in bowls and buckets and whatever, all to get my remaining fish out: A pair of true percs and a couple of damsels.

Next was to put that tank back together. It will remain fishless until the ich cycle is over.

I decided to follow a local guy's routine which seems to work REALLY well for ridding the fish themselves of ich.

I set up a 10g tank with powerhead, sw and a heater.
I put a few pieces of plastic piping in there for hiding places, but no sand rock gravel etc for the parasite to lay eggs in.

48 hrs from the time they went in, they'll be swapped to a second 10g tank with new sw and the first one will be dumped, thoroughly cleaned and set to air dry until it's needed again in 48 hrs. This will happen a total of 4 times.

The idea is for the parasites to drop off the fish like they naturally do, but then to have no place to drop off too, and with 8 days gone by, they should be entirely off the fish.

In the meantime, I have to leave that original tank fallow, so I decided to set up a second sw tank on a permanent basis.

So, yesterday a fellow AC enthusiast came and picked up all my freshwater fish, and I bought 40 lbs of carib-sea or arag-alive sand, cleaned out the tank really well, made my 2-3 inch sand bed (I want to get some nice sand sifting creatures in this one) and it's sitting in wait for the fish in about 7 days.

Now, everything seems to be working out quite well EXCEPT:

I'd like to get some live rock in the 29g display tank, but not sure how to do it w/o waiting 8 weeks for the rock to quarantine. I don't want to go through this ich thing EVER again.

It sucks, quite honestly...it sucks real bad. ;)

[AngieW]

Eek, that does suck, I'm sorry you've had to go through all this. Blech!

[Pallen81]

That completely sucks.

[Reefscape]

I think the above, of what Subliminal has talked about, is something that far too many do not do..Quarantining new arrivals is a valuable part of keeping your aquarium paracite and disease free and can save you time and money in the long run....

It sucks Damon, but your on the right tracks to getting things back up and running...

Niko

[Star_Rider]

wow..I feel your pain..I may have to do the same thing..
I'l keep the fish out of the main tank for atleast 2 weeks and treat my fish for ick..in a hospital tank I have set up mine wi have pvc with 2 hob filters..I tried to catch the fish but found I may have to dismantle the maintank to do so..but the affect may be more adverse as the corals are doing really well..
I may wind up losing my fish as the trade off may be more damaging to the reef.

[Subliminal]

Yep. Tough stuff.

Luckily I found a guy in our local club who is super anal about his qt methods. He outlined this whole thing for me and he also says he has about 200 lbs of LR that's just completed his 8 week qt session.

He said we could go to a local store, buy as much lr as i want/need, then head over to his house, throw it in qt, and he'll trade me some already QTed rock, lb. for lb.

[Subliminal]

From what I understand, ich that has gone untreated with fish still in the tank will die off naturally in 11 months. It just completes it's whole life cycle (in an aquarium).

Ich in a main tank with no fish to host in will completely die off in 8 weeks

Ich in fish with the tank to tank method will usually be completely gone in 8 days.

It's a tough schedule if you don't have a tank to put the fish in for a few months.

And a lot of fish can't tolerate copper, and inverts and lr certainly can't.

I know what you mean about the corals...it's tough to have to pull the entire tank apart...i know..

I've done it twice now...never again.

Another thing I learned: BE VERY CAREFUL SELECTING YOUR INHABITANTS!

[Pallen81]

my firefish had a blister/bubble right by his fin for about 5 days. the bubble moved around too. there were never any salt like spots on him though. its been gone for over 5 days now? this doesn't remind you of your ich outbreak does it???

[SigPiPup]

All this talk is making me think that getting a UV Sterilizer isn't that bad of an idea.

[Reefscape]

All this talk is making me think that getting a UV Sterilizer isn't that bad of an idea.

I always like to keep one there, on stand by, just have to plug it in if its ever needed....

Niko

[Star_Rider]

I have a 25 w uv sterilizer..it seemed to have masked the issue for a bit.

my understanding of ich..is it needs a host to survive..no way to treat a reef tank as any meds will kill the reef.



"Ich in a main tank with no fish to host in will completely die off in 8 weeks"
is news to me..my understanding is the tomites need s host or will parish in short order..the only question is when do they hatch out.

my reseach suggests that in the tropical environement the ich should hatch out and die in approx 3 weeks.(temp at 80-82)..the warmer water should speed the hatch cycle.

I never heard of it dying off naturally in 11 months.
I always equated it to a living cycle.

I aso understand that meds may be harsh on fish but you can aso use hyposalinity..dropping the specific gravity over the course fo a few days to 1.009-1.010
but it also has some drawbacks as some fish don't tolerate the ower salinity.

I will be trying to catch the fish tonite and place them in the q tank..with daily water changes.the treatment and hospital tank will need to sit for 14 days ..



in my case all the fish came from the same source and are the first inhabitants to the tank.

I will also be running my uv sterilizer in the maintank during the ich treatment.

[rusty-nail-z]

sorry to hear about that subliminal, Im sure you guys saw my little post about a possible ich on one of my fish. Im also takin that advice an immediate reaction response.. going to the fish store right when it opens to get a second opinion, then gettin myself a hospital/ quarantine tank. My femal perc is the one with the spot, but the male doesnt have any spots. Should I hospitalize them together? On that topic, what isa an effective, wallet friendly quarantine/hospital set up??

[Star_Rider]

sorry to hear about that subliminal, Im sure you guys saw my little post about a possible ich on one of my fish. Im also takin that advice an immediate reaction response.. going to the fish store right when it opens to get a second opinion, then gettin myself a hospital/ quarantine tank. My femal perc is the one with the spot, but the male doesnt have any spots. Should I hospitalize them together? On that topic, what isa an effective, wallet friendly quarantine/hospital set up??

the problem with ich is in the way it spreads.

the white spot trophant is what you usually see(white spot/salt) it is feeding on the flesh of the fish and will feed from 3-7 days..leaving the fish (protomant) it attaches to surfaces/sand and begins to encyct(Tomite) they are non-infective at this stage and will remain like this for 3-28 days.(this is the stage where it is possible to speed the time by raising the temp slightly as in cooler water they will remain for the longer 28 days it is also the stage where they mutipy) the tomite will hatch and the new theront begins to look for a host.(they have only 24 hrs to find a host and this is the stage where they are treatable).

so if you can catch all the fish I would treat all the fish.

here is a good read if you are interested.


http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

I also discovered the method described here..you can do large daily water changes to reduce the re-infection eventually wiping out the ich..I think similar to the change the tank method..which actually sounds like a good idea.

[Subliminal]

Ok, I'll try and answer a few questions to the best of my understanding.

First, the low cost quarantine method:

Get a 25w heater (~$12)
Get a 10g tank ($~12)
Get a powerhead ($~15)

Personally, I'd recommend a second 10g tank for the tank to tank method, but we'll see how that plays out first.

I used some pcv piping from my garage (scrubbed of course) for the fishies to hide in in the tank.

Rusty, yeah I'd hospitalize them together...but they're your fish and I think you need to do your own thing... :)

As to the UV, well...I actually was given one recently, but not sure if I'm even going to bother. I'm going to wait the whole 8 weeks and never worry about it again (hopefully). The UV might speed things up, but since there's just inverts and rock in there now anyway, and I'm not going to cut this short, it really wouldn't help me with anything.

As to the 3 week thing, I believe it's the unhatched eggs in the substrate that make it take longer.

[Subliminal]

I think in the future, I'm going to recommend that people wait 8 weeks before sticking fish in their tanks. I know nobody will listen, but maybe, just maybe someone will prosper from my mistakes... :)

[Star_Rider]

makes sense

I was just pointing out info I learned from researching.

8 weeks would give you a safety margin..and remove all doubt.:thm:
the biggest problem is getting rid of the pest.

time is your best friend in a reef tank or FOWLR

[Reefscape]

Mistakes are there for people to learn from and i do hope that people will give this thread some good thought as we have seen from this, the effects that a paracite in an aquarium can have, not only to the fish but how diss-heartened it makes the keeper..

Niko

[Subliminal]

Yep. Totally sucks.

And if I didn't have the time/money to qt these fish, chances are I would have lost them all.

And chances are, if I rush the fallow time in the big tank, it would just come back.

And chances are...that would really stink.

Oh well...what's a boy to do? ;)

[rusty-nail-z]

Lots of good info here guys... I just got back from my reputable LFS. I borught my female perc in to show the guys the little white spot. At this point, it was no longer visible. At that time, I thought I was just trippin out, or maybe it was some debris from my frogspawn. The guy proceeded to inform me that from the look of the fins and the movement of the fish that it wa healthy. I know this is a true statement, but IM sure it doesnt rule out the fact my fish might have ich. Anyyway, with no visible proof and the healthy fins dialogue, I proceeded to get a quarantine tank set up for future problems, new fish etc. When I got home and dropped my fish bank in the tank under the lights, I could see thatsame little white spot again. Doh! There is only one spot right now, but if it is ich, I dont want that @!$% in my tank.... Any advice on whether I should quarantine the both of them just to be sure?? I do have lots of living things besides fish in my tank (LR, LS, corals etc. which represent a far greater investment monywise...

[Reefscape]

I think if there is any doubt in your mind, they should be removed to QT and monitored..But dont take any action unless you can confirm it IS Ich...

Its just what i would do....

Niko

[Subliminal]

Another 'from what I understand' post coming...;):

Ok, from what I understand, many MANY tanks have ich present, but healthy fish can usually fight it off and never get sick. It's only once stress (temp changes, bad params, fighting, etc) is introduced that the fish have problems.

My clown was visibly covered with the stuff (once of the two) and still acted just like normal.

I don't really know what to tell you. You should have gotten a $$$ guarantee from the guy. ;)

[rusty-nail-z]

yeah, i think im just gonna set up my quarantine tank anyway. I really have no concrete way of "confirming" that my fish has ich, other that from pics and what I learn. It is only one spot now, but do I really want to wait until it gets worse? I just dont want to have to reboot my whole tank becuz of it. Does ich always manifest itself it multiple spots? Thanx for all the help so far, Ill ahve to start reading up on all those ich posts that I passed over while gettting my tank started. Good luck with your recovery subliminal

[Germanman]

wow that sucks man im sry

[SHK_ATK]

sucks to hear bro, I QT since Ive heard the horror stories. I like to keep my QT with at least one fish in there at all times, I currently have a yellow watchman and some chromis. Although I never QT any coral or inverts I am not sure if that is a good thing or not but I dont have any outbreaks or any bad water params thus far. I did have this one prob when I purchase my Regal tang from a Good LFS but I noticed a white spot once I was driving back home and when I finally got home I saw a lot of while spots So I drove to another LFS (since the one I purchase him in was an hour away) that was 15 min to show them they said it wasnt ich but that he was just stressed out and that he would be fine. I took no chances and purchase a new regal from them and got a store credit for the other one. I really dont want to ever get ich and thus QTing is in effect.

[phoneman111]

is there any way to fight ich without that blue/green crap.i have a 55g african cichlid tank with peacock eel. i just like to be safe because i frequently purchase 1 or 2 at a time.i have 12 now and i would hate to lose any of them. thanks for your help

[phoneman111]

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[rusty-nail-z]

dam, this thread is still gettin action, hope its goin ok for you sublim...I just got my qt tank up and goin, gettin ready to add my femal perc in there and her parter just in case. My girl went by the LFS today to get some water and some misc items. The guy there told her to qt the fishes for about 7 days while treating with this "Rid-Ich" stuff. He said meanwhile the main tank will be gettin rid of the ich too as there are no more fish in it. Ill prob treat longer to be safe, does any of this sound like a good course of action?

[5xevy]

Yep- most of us learn the hard way, myself included. It really doesn't cost much to start a QT. I've also never heard somone say they regret having a QT. I've heard plenty of people say the opposite though.


is there any way to fight ich without that blue/green crap.i have a 55g african cichlid tank with peacock eel. i just like to be safe because i frequently purchase 1 or 2 at a time.i have 12 now and i would hate to lose any of them. thanks for your help

Treating ich for freshwater is a little bit different. There's a link on here I'll try to find. But no, that blue-green stuff isn't necessary.


The guy there told her to qt the fishes for about 7 days while treating with this "Rid-Ich" stuff. He said meanwhile the main tank will be gettin rid of the ich too as there are no more fish in it. Ill prob treat longer to be safe, does any of this sound like a good course of action?

No, I would QT for a lot longer than 7 days. Sounds like the guy at the LFS isn't too familiar with the life cycle of ich. It'll also take longer than 7 days for your main tank. Rid Ich is not proven to work and is not an effective cure.

[5xevy]

Just found this article on QTs while searching for the freshwater ich page I had.

Good stuff (and pictures) in here:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

phoneman- The freshwater ich page is gone so still looking for a decent alternative article.

[rusty-nail-z]

Well, I went ahead and started treating my two clownfish with rid ich. Got my water params in the qt goin well. I filled the qt with half tankwater and half fresh saltwater mix, and am concerned about how I will stay on top of ammon, nitrite and nitrite levels.... This rid ich stuff turns to color the water becuz of the malachite green in it, and I have API liquid test kits. I guess frequent water changes on are the menu. The bottle of the rid ich prescribes a 25% change per treatment which would mean per day. One of the links to those reefkeeping articles said as much as 50%. Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Subliminal]

Rusty,

I'm using an entirely different method. Tank water to me is just full of the stuff I wanted to get away from...I'm using none of it.

Funny, my main tank is so full of that crap that I can see little white things in there.

Good luck living, little white things...there's no more fish. HA!

You already read the method I'm using, so I won't reitterate.

I just got done with the second swap. The fish went from the main tank to the first 10g, and yesterday to the second. Tomorrow, back to the cleaned out first. I match temp and salinity, and considering it's got only 2 clowns and a damsel (the other damsel had the ich real bad and died the first day), there's really not much chance of the water poluting...except for maybe the ich eggs I flush away...:)

[Subliminal]

Just found this article on QTs while searching for the freshwater ich page I had.

Good stuff (and pictures) in here:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

phoneman- The freshwater ich page is gone so still looking for a decent alternative article.

Thanks, that was a good read!

[Subliminal]

Oh and ttt....I've been reading today and I've seen at least 3 posts this morning alone with people asking about ich. :)

[Reefscape]

Rusty,

I'm using an entirely different method. Tank water to me is just full of the stuff I wanted to get away from...I'm using none of it.

Funny, my main tank is so full of that crap that I can see little white things in there.

Good luck living, little white things...there's no more fish. HA!

If your Ich cycle is at the stage that the paracites are free swimming, then the use of a UV Sterilizer will clear the tank water of this. Just a point to add for somebody else who is concidering using one of these devices for Ich combat...

Niko

[SigPiPup]

That article from RK is awesome. It, as well as all the bad experiences I've read about, has conviced me thoroughly to quaratine any and all new acquisitions. It is going to be quite some time before I'll have to worry about setting up a tank, but at least now the whole process has been de-mystified. I'm just sorry that I've had to learn from your misfortune. Thanks, I guess. :)

[Star_Rider]

If your Ich cycle is at the stage that the paracites are free swimming, then the use of a UV Sterilizer will clear the tank water of this. Just a point to add for somebody else who is concidering using one of these devices for Ich combat...

Niko

I have been using a uv sterilizer..and just discovered that the uv bulb had been turned off..it is up and running now.
sheesh

I lost my PBT last night..how discouraging..it was doing so wel and was greeting me at the tank at feeding time..I feel terrible.

my Tomini seems to be faring well and the clown doesn't seem as affected..

I do plan on trying again to remove the fish..but that tomini is lightening fast...