fishless cycling 6 weeks in..HELP

[nichole]

I am six weeks into fishless cycling my 45 gal tank. I had my nitrite spike around the second week and they have been at zero since about a week after that and have stayed that way. My nitrates are between 40-60. The tank seems to be able to burn through about 2 ppms in a 24 hour period. I add back ammonia to get it back to 5 ppm and then it is a constant cycle of burning through it down to 2-3 ppms every day.
It has been 6 weeks this past Tuesday...what am I doing wrong? Or does it just take more time?
Thanks in advance for you help.

[ChilDawg]

I wonder if this thread will help some? http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5927

[TwoTankAmin]

When your nitrites dropped back to 0, your tank was cycled. You are now way overdosing ammonia. 3-4 drops/10-gals is sufficient to hold the cylce til you add fish.

Change to this dosing routine, when you can dose and then test 0 ammonia in 1-2 hrs afterwords, add fish.

[nichole]

I am confused now. All the posts I have read on this forum say you are to keep adding the ammonia back to 5 ppm and when the nitrites are 0 and the tank can burn through the 5 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours then I am cycled. Can someone please clarify this for me? Thanks.

[carpguy]

Originally posted by TwoTankAmin
3-4 drops/10-gals is sufficient to hold the cylce til you add fish.


Unless, of course your ammonia is a weaker concentration or has weakened through age, exposure to light…. Better to stick to ppm dosing.

So the problem is that your nitrites have been at 0 for a month but you still get high ammonia results after 24 hrs? Weird. I'd take a sample to your friendly and reliable LFS to check the accuracy of the test kit. I'd also look at whatever your using as a dechlorinator and see if its likely to screw up ammonia tests (some do).

In the meantime, try cutting your dosage in half. This was the original protocol laid out in the Chris Cow article. Some reports have come back in suggesting that staying high throughout the cycle can produce an unnecessarily hostile enviroment for the bacteria and slow things down quite a bit. This usually seems to manifest as an endless nitrite spike, not an endless ammonia spike.

Those are just some hunches. Can't really say for sure… but 6 weeks is long and ammonia should have been zeroing for awhile now.

HTH

HTH

[nichole]

Thanks for all of your help. I am now thinking our test kit may be off. It is starting to make sense to me now...we have been at 2ppm of ammonia after 24 hours for three weeks now. We are going to take some water to the LFS and we are going to buy a new ammonia test kit.
Thanks again.

[RTR]

Also check the pH and KH of the tank - if you have soft to very soft water, the KH will be burned out and the pH will drp low enough to slow or damage the nitrification bacteria.

You should have at least 3 degrees KH for fishless cycling.

I agree that ammonia dosing can and should drop back after nitrites appear and certainly after they peak.

[nichole]

I tested the water this afternoon and my readings were ammonia 2, nitrite 0, nitrates 40, and ph 6 or maybe even lower. I tested the water out of my tap and it has a ph of 7.6. Could not find a kh test at the lfs I went to. I decided to do a water change. I changed probably 80%. About three hours later I re ran the tests ammonia 1, nitrite 2-3, nitrates 10, and ph 6.4. Is it possible that something is causing my ph to drop too low and this is causing the tank not to cycle?? I am at a real loss at this point and very frustrated. Any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks again.

Again tank stats are:
45 gl
under gravel filter
one power head
fluval 304

[demon_surfer]

one thing i read says that lower pH makes ammonia less toxic? if her pH is very low could this be messing with her cycle? also if the ph is swinging it might be because you have softwater. I dont really know much about this im just hoping that i can bump this up to the top so you can get some more advice

[wetmanNY]

nichole, your low pH is the problem. At such low pH, the nitrifying bacterial community slows to a crawl.

A pinch of sodium bicarbonate (the "bicarb" in the bathroom medicine chest) for now (fast-acting), and a tablespoon of crushed coral in the filtration for later (steady supply), will support the KH and raise the pH and your cycle will be complete by this weekend.

Take a peanut butter jar to the lfs and get them to fill it for you from their open bag of crushed coral. They may even charge you...

[nichole]

Thanks wetmanNy and demon surfer for your posts. I really appreciate it.
Here are my readings from today:
ammonia 0
nitrite .50
nitrate 40
ph 6.4-6.6
gh 7
kh 6

I am going to add the sodium bicarbonate (baking soda right??)
and get the crushed coral. Hopefully I will be ready to get fish this weekend. It has been a long process!!

Thanks again.

[carpguy]

Yes, baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. Your current KH and pH are good -- I wouldn't mess with them too much.

Keep some crushed coral on deck for the future (just a different form of the same thing that will dissolve much more slowly and stablely).

The cycle process itself tends to acidify the water and erode the carbonate buffer (the KH). When the buffer is gone the pH drops suddenly. This tends to suppress the bacteria and can kill your fish, so its something you'll want to avoid. Some folks with natural KH below 3 (like me and the mighty WetFeller) use coral to boost KH to a safer level. Over 3 is generally considered safe and stable -- regular water changes will provide enough buffer to replace what the cycle takes out.

Hopefully things will move along a bit more quickly from here -- the tanks are more interesting with fish in them.

[nichole]

Carpguy thank you so much for the post. One last question....should I not add the crushed coral until after the cycle is complete? My ph flucuates and I have been adding proper ph to the tank for a few days in order to boost the ph because earlier in the week it was really low (6.0 or even lower). I have stopped adding the proper ph so should I just keep adding the baking soda at this point or go ahead with the crushed coral. Sorry for so many questions. I am new to this! I really appreciate your help.

[wetmanNY]

Better find out what phosphate does to the test results, nichole.

How can you run twelve posts without mentioning phosphate buffers, when the "issue" is pH? What else is going in? Don't tell me.

And now you need repeated urgings to raise your pH with bicarb and stabilize it with calcium carbonate, so that the nitrifying bacteria can get back on track.

You're getting good advice.

C'mon! Get going, now!

[carpguy]

The pH-Up sauce is another type of buffer. I've never used it and have never really looked into it, although from the WetMan's post I'll guess it buffers with phosphates. Various folks along the way have reported some problems with this method of buffering -- the consensus seems to be that its not as stable.

The bacteria don't know or care if the ammonia comes from a fish or a bottle. The cycle produces acid. You are establishing the cycle -- once its cycled it will continue to produce acid. Carbonates that are naturally present in your tapwater can absorb a given amount of this acid and the pH will remain stable. When the acid has blown through the carbonate buffer there is suddenly nothing left to absorb the acid and the pH will drop fast. Put a sponge on the counter and start to drip water on it -- it will absorb the water until its saturated and then suddenly you'll have water running off of it onto the counter.

Your cycle is being hampered by a pH crash. You'll want to get the buffer back in place to absorb that acid so that the cycle can finish and the fish can move in. This is something you'll want to address now.

Test your tapwater after its had a chance to sit out for a few hours in a bowl (surface area counts). Deal with those figures. You want a KH of at least 3, maybe a tad higher is nice too. If you have a decent supply of carbonates in your tap then you'll be recharging the buffer at each regular water change and you'll jut want to get out of this hole you're in now. If not you'll need to add some carbonates of your own on a regular basis…

Baking soda will dissolve fully and increase KH all at once. The acid will then start to erode it. You'll add more. It'll start to drop. This will become tedious. Some crushed coral in a mesh filter bag will dissolve slowly over time. You'll add it and it'll take care of itself for months. After tinkering with finding the right amount (try a tablespoon per 10g and work from there) its an extremely stable and low fuss technique. To boost immediately (like in the wake of a crash) baking soda, for long-term KH maintenance try the coral.

You can get the big picture and the fine detail at the WetFeller's
SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com). If you don't have it bookmarked you should -- its a first rate resource.

HTH

[nichole]

Thanks for all your help. I have added the baking soda and I also bought the crushed coral and added that to the tank yesterday. I tried to go to that website you gave me but it doesn't seem to be working. Thanks again for your help.

[nichole]

I know that wetman was a little irritated with me because I didn't mention I had added proper ph to the tank. I read on another forum that the low ph I had been having in the tank could hamper the cycle and that proper ph would raise the ph and help with the cycle. So that is why I added it to the tank. I hadn't gotten any advice in several days and was at a total loss as to what to do. I only did it two times. So that said I have followed all of your directions........

Ok..here are my readings from yesterday and today. Have I started the cycle all over again??

Yesterday:
ammonia: .25
nitrite:.50
nitrate: 40
ph: 7.2
kh: off the charts (added 20 drops to get it to change
gh: 7

I did an 80% water change last night and here are the readings today.

ammonia: 0 (have been adding 3 drops per 10 gal. (have 45 gal tank) and am now able to test again in 2 hours and have a reading of 0ppm)
nitrite: 2ppm
nitrate:40
ph: 7.4
kh: 7
gh: 8

As I said in my previous post I have added the baking soda to get the ph up and I have the coral in my filter I am adding nothing else to the tank besides these two things.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks again.

[Vagabond]

I think you're almost there. Especially if you can keep the pH stabilized in the range it is in now. Just keep adding your ammonia and watch for the Nirtites to drop to 0 and you'll be there.

I know how frustrating it can get to look at an empty fish tank day after day waiting for it to cycle, wondering if you are doing the right thing. I didnt have the pH problems you've had, but I thought my fishless cycle would NEVER end. My Nitrites spiked and wouldnt come down.

Well, the tank eventually did cycle, it was a great day when all those numbers from all those tests fell into line.

So Hang in There! the day will come.

Vagabond

[wetmanNY]

Sorry nichole. So grouchy and cross sometimes. Your instincts were absolutely right*, but you could have raised the pH with bicarb...

The Skeptical Aquarist is afloat once again, BTW!
.

*I think I'm so smart, but I didn't learn about the nitrifiers being pH-sensitive until very recently myself!

[nichole]

Wetman no need to apologize. I am very new and I appreciate all of your advice which I do know is very accurate. I am very impatient and frustrated at this point. It has been almost 8 weeks now since I started fishless cycling and I am so tired of looking at the tank with no fish. Based on my readings from yesterday I think I have started the cycle all over again. SO I am just waiting patiently AGAIN. Thanks everyone for your advice.

[demon_surfer]

i think maybe you are reading your tests wrong, unless there is something in the water that can kill the nitrifying bacteria. what exactly in the readins makes you think that you are starting all over again?. basically all you need to do is maintain the ammonia levels in your tank at about 5ppm untill it vanishes over night. is the ammonia doign this? if it is then all you need to do is a huge water change (80%) and your set. if you can tell us, how often are you adding ammonia and what are your test results. and why do you think you keep getting reset :)

[nichole]

Well I don't think I am reading the test wrong. I have been dosing with 3 drops of ammonia per 10 gal (45 gal tank) and it has been burning through it in about 2 hours. When I first started out I was dosing to 5ppm but several people suggested cutting the dose and only adding 3-4 drops per 10 gal. So that is what I have been doing and I have been adding it every day. I think I might have restarted the cycle because for a while I was at o nitrites but couldn't get rid of the ammonia and then I changed the dosing and now I am at 0 ammonia but yesterday I had nitrites around 2-3 and today they are at .50. So I am not sure. But hopefully I am close. Several people have also said when I was at o ammonia I was cycled but all the articles I have read have said the ammonia AND the nitrites had to be at zero. So are you saying the nitrites don't have to be at zero and I just need to do a water change?

Everyone thanks again so much for all of your help!!

[carpguy]

hi nichole

I think your tests are probably ok and you've accidentally pushed your cycle back a bit. The stuff in your water that can suppress nitrifying bacteria would have been the acid from the pH crash.

The 3-4 drops per 10 gals is not necessarily an accurate dose. Might be, but then again…. Ammonia concentrations can vary from one mix to the next or concentrations can drop as the mix ages. Thats why the protocol is usually "enough to get to 5ppm" and not a specific amount. I used 1/4 teaspoon for my 30g, although I think that may have been a little high (long nitrites, 30 day cycle). I think 3-4 drops/10g would have been a little low for me. It'll work in the long run but it may not be optimal.

The cycle isn't established until you are at double zeros: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite.

It does sound like you're close.

It seems to me that a lot of times it sounds like the cycle is something that happens once at the beginning and then is finished. Its really something that isn't happening at the beginning that we're trying to get going safely. Then it will happen automatically and continuously. The nutshell rendition: the fish produce (or we dose) ammonia, bacteria converts that to nitrites, other bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates. Generally the process ends there and nitrates tend to build up. The whole process tends to acidify the water.

The key points: ammonia and nitrites are dangerously toxic to fish -- the cycle isn't established until you have colonies that can process the full load as fast as it comes in. Nitrates are not as toxic -- you'll want to keep them low but they will be present in your tank. Water changes are the most common method of nitrate export. By the time you have finished a fishless cycle you'll probably have a pretty high level of nitrates so the last step is a large scale water change to remove them before the fish go in. Generally you want to keep the nitrates at least below 40 ppm and preferably under 20.

After the fish are in there will always be more ammonia, more nitrites, more nitrates, more acidification. The bacteria will take care of the first two, regular water changes will take care of the second two. There is a bunch of stuff (like nitrates) you'll want to remove, and stuff (like carbonates) that are being used up and need to be added back in. Once you're up and running the normal recommendation is for a 20 or 25% change once every week or so.

The coral in your filter should help give you a nice stable pH, but you can have too much of a good thing -- keep an eye on it to make sure your pH isn't drfiting up above where you want it to be. I need to supplement my buffer and you may as well. Or you may be overcorrecting a onetime incident caused by a lack of water changes and unusually high amounts of ammonia. Just something to keep an eye on and very adjustable.

You're almost there!

:D

[nichole]

Carpguy thank you so much for the post. So much good information. I going to raise the ammonia dosage to 5 and see what happens. I am pretty sure it will burn through it.
Thanks again for all the information. I think i definitely had some problems because of my ph problem but that has been fixed with the coral and has been very stable.
I hope I am almost there. Two months now of staring at a fishless tank is getting old.
Thanks for your help.

[demon_surfer]

from looking at the last results you posted for us i would say you are done, you are just getting added spikes because of the added ammonia. just do an 80% water change and then check your readings. after that you should be ready to go


im so glad i read some of the links that carpguy put in cause i found out i did my cycle wrong =/. i never even tested for nitrates heeh. just when i saw that my ammonia vanished over night i did the water change, that got rid of my nitrites and i put fish in :eek: oh well it seems to have worked.

anyway, after re reading the articles i have some more suggestions, you dont seem to have mentioned nitrAtes yet, they are what you are aiming for, please test for them and tell us if you are gettin g a reading. in wetmanNY's site it is suggested that the large quatities of ammonia might be stopping the bacteria that converts the nitrites to nitrates from getting a foot hold. but if there is nitrates in your tank i would say you are done.

[nichole]

demon surfer..I have been testing for nitrates. Here are my readings from today.

ammonia: 0
nitrites: 5
ph: 7.4
nitrates: 40

Some people say I was done when ammonia went to 0 and some say I am not done until ammonia and nitrites are at 0. I have also read articles where some say when ammonia is 0 you are cycled and some that say ammonia and nitrites have to be 0 to be cycled. Just don't know what to do!!

[carpguy]

Nitrites aren't as toxic as ammonia can be but they're still toxic. A colony will be along in a little bit to process them down to nitrates. Establishing a "Nitrogen Cycle" (http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html) includes both spikes, both colonies. Double zeros is done.

The WetMan has one of the best info sites (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/) on the web. Here's a link to the archived version of the nitrogen cycle (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/old/nutrient.html#nitrocyc) section. I just reread it and once again learned a bunch of new stuff. He has seemed a little grouchy of late, but don't let that fool you -- he's one of the most knowledgeable and helpful folks you're likely to find out here.

The original protocol (in the Chris Cow articles) was to scale back the ammonia dose to half the original 5ppm dose once the ammonia spike was complete and the nitrite spike was underway. Since this is where you're at now you might try that. Some of the fishless crowd favor staying at the higher dose but some of the feedback suggests that this may tend to draw out the nitrite spike, something I'm sure you'd like to avoid.

My fishless only took a month and that seemed like a long time at the time. Now its just a distant memory and I've got a tank full of healthy fish cruising around. You'll get there.



Edit: the WetFeller is just now switching over to the new version and its apparently not a seemless process. I couldn't get past the front page but I could go to the archived older version. Bookmark it and return often. I'm sure he'll get there too…

[demon_surfer]

nichole from those reading i will say you are done. just do the water change and you are done :)

[JSchmidt]

Personally, I wouldn't add fish until both ammonia and nitrite read zero within 24 hours after dosing with ammonia. Why risk exposing fish to nitrite poisoning after waiting so long? It will end soon... it always does. It just seems to take forever.

Jim

[Mgamer20o0]

how do you know what is the right level for nitrite, nitrate, ph
kh, and gh?

[carpguy]

Ammonia and Nitrites should both always be undetectable in the tank. They're both harmful, can be fatal. If not fatal then harmful. Stress invites disease, burnt gills shorten lifespans. To be avoided.

Nitrates aren't great for fish, but not so bad. Under 40 is ok under 20 is better. I forget the numbers but I don't think any fish actually die until nitrates are well over 100 and most species can tolerate much higher levels.

Think of ammonia as chemical smoke, nitrites as regular smoke, nitrates as an annoying odor from traffic, garbage, your neighbors cooking, etc. The first can potentially kill you in a jiffy, the second may not kill you but is actually physically *gasp* harmful, the third isn't all that critical but wouldn't a little fresh air be nice?

pH, GH, KH, unlike the nitrogen complexes, are sort of the fixed conditions of your water. There really are no "right" levels. Its easier to go up than it is to go down but stable is more important than ideal.

KH is a measure of your waters ability to buffer acids, so if its very low you may be open to unstable pH, which is bad because unstable is bad and stable is good.

If you have moderate type water you can pretty much do what you want and most fish will adapt. Some fish are described as delicate -- the water should match pretty closely and be kept clean. Otherwise its not that critical unless you have water at one extreme or the other. Clean is always good. My water is very soft and acidic, great for SE Asian fish, S American, OK for most others, I wouldn't try a Rift Lake tank without significantly hardening the water. If your water is 7.4 your golden, if its 8.4 you might want to stick to moderate and harder water fish.

[Mgamer20o0]

thanks for the info carpguy i understand it better now thanks for you help

[nichole]

I have now been fishless cycing for two months and I have to ask myself what the heck am I doing wrong??
For those of you who have been helping me from the beginning here are my readings from today:

ammonia: 0
nitrites: 3
nitrates: 40
ph: 7.4 and has remained stable for the past few weeks
gh: 8
kh:8

I am just assuming I started the cycle all over again when I was having the ph problems (previous posts). I have been adding 3-4 drops of ammonia per 10 gal (45 gal tank). Then yesterday I dosed the ammonia to 5ppm and it was gone in 24 hours. I have read differing views as to whether I should cut the ammonia in half or not. The nitrites have been at this level for about two weeks.

I guess I am just wondering if I am on track now or if I should be doing something else. I am getting very frustrated and impatient at this point. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[OrionGirl]

Have the nitrites gone down from an original spike? It sounds like the bacteria colony that process nitrites is developing. I'd keep up the same dosing, so you will know that when the nitrites go to 0, it indicates the bacteria colony has reached the right size, rather than just a decrease in the supply of ammonia.

Patience is always hardest at the end! Hang in there!

[carpguy]

The original Chris Cow article (http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html) on fishless recommended cutting the dosage in half after the ammonia spike. (Take a look at Alternate Recipe for the dosing by concentration bit and Too Much Ammonia).

Since then a variant has developed where the dose is kept at the same level throughout. This seems to me to be a "more is better" sort of thing. After a number of threads like this one, and some reading on the side, it seems to me that more isn't better -- that the higher levels of ammonia tend to suppress the nitrite-reducing bacteria and cause longer than typical nitirite spikes.

At the WetFeller's SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com) , for instance, I found this:

from his fishless cycling (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/startover/fishless.shtml) section
This passing "nitrite spike" is not necessary: it's nothing but an artifact created by the slower reproduction rates of the nitrite-users, compared to the bacteria that do the first metabolizing of ammonia. And some folks are suggesting that perhaps the very presence of ammonia itself has a suppressing effect on these nitrite-metabolizing bacteria, so that they aren't able to establish effective populations until the ammonia-metabolizing bacteria have stabilized and reduced the ammonia levels. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria do seem to be more sensitive than their ammonia-oxidizing partners. In fact, under stressful conditions some nitrite can reappear, even in a thoroughly established aquarium… the nitrite-respiring bacteria are sensitive to low temperatures and low pH.

I would--
1) try cutting the 5ppm dose in half.
2) heat the tank as if it had fish in it. I wouldn't necessarily go warmer, as the O2 level drops in warmer water and this is an O2 intensive process.

You may have knocked yourself clear back to the beginning of the nitrite spike, and the nitrite spike seems to be the longer phase of the two. Even so you should be winding down soon (unless you're continuing to suppress the little fellers).

HTH

[nichole]

Oriongirl and carpguy thanks so much for the posts.

Oriongirl-the nitrites have not gone down. They have been at this level for about two weeks now.

Carpguy-you are so full of great information. I actually read that article on wetmans site. Very good information. I am going to go back to my original ammonia dosing. That gets it to about 2ppm and wait wait wait some more. I basically got the ammonia up to 5 yesterday just to see if it would burn through it. Based on all of the information I have read I am pretty sure I have started the cycle over because of the ph problems that occured. I think I am almost there....at least I hope so or I might throw the tank out the window!!

Thanks AGAIN!!!

[carpguy]

Hi Nichole,
I'm a relative newb myself -- I fishlessed my first tank starting around last Thanksgiving, first fish in the water just before Christmas. I'm just trying to pass along what I learned (recently) from folks like the OnionGirl and the WetFeller.

And since I seem to always learn something new at the Skeptical One's site… I followed this link (http://www.csupomona.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html) to an article on fishless that I thought was much more informative than the Cow article. They recommend, in the absence of fish, boosting temps into the mid to upper 80s. Remember though that these are aerobic bacteria with a pretty hefty appetite for O2 -- if you're planning on using an airstone now is a plenty good time to start, otherwise you can get better surface agitation by lowering the water level a little bit to get better splash (assuming you've got an HOB). Since my tank is in the bedroom, I'd just go a little warmer an keep an eye on things.

HTH

[nichole]

Well I was excited today I tested my water this morning and here were my readings:

ammonia: 0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 40
ph: 7.4
kh: 8
gh: 7

I did an 80% water change this afternoon in preparation for getting fish tomorrow and waited a few hours and retested the water and here are my readings now:

ammonia: .25
nitrites: 3
nitrates: 40
ph 7.4
kh: 8
gh: 7

I am now at a total loss. I would have thought it had something to do with my tap water but I have tested that in the past and after letting the tap water sit for several hours ammonia was 0 and nitrites were 0.

Does anyone have any thoughts???

[goldfish freak]

My understanding is with a fishless cycle once both your ammonia and nitrite is reading at zero 24 hours or less after adding the full amount of ammonia then it is cycled. Did you add the full amount of ammonia to the water again after you changed the water, and tested a few hours after that? If so, than the readings you are getting are most likely high because you have not given the bacteria enough time to process the ammonia, it needs up to 24 hours. If not then it could be the brand of water conditioner you used to treat the new water. Some brands will sequester ammonia, thus not making it available for the bacteria to use.

[nichole]

Well I actually don't think I was cycled when I thought I was. I think I was actually so far off the charts with my nitrites that it didn't register with the color chart. The color of the nitrites was a blue grey. I thought that meant the nitrites were 0 since the 0 on the color chart was the only color my reading was remotely similar to. So when I did the 80% water change thinking I was ready for fish the nitrites really were lowered..they didn't go up like I thought. I have done some reading on this site and have found several other people that had the same problem as me with the test kit. The nitrites aren't really zero they are just extremely high and don't register on the color chart.

I also retested my tap water after letting the water sit out overnight instead of just a few hours the results aren't great.

ammonia: 1
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 0
ph: 6.8
kh: 3
gh: 7

Unfortunately I guess I will keep waiting.