View Full Version : Butterfly Rams
Dobermann
12-09-2002, 9:59 AM
Ok I got a pair of Butterfly Rams (they are a little less than an inch) and six Green Swordtails to accompany my 4 Peruvian Angels and Farlowella in the 37 gal.
Immediately the Angels became more active and seem to really benefit from the company.
The Rams even at their small size seem to be engaging in pre-spawning behavior and were doing so even when I saw them at the petstore which is why I got those individuals.
Anyways this is my first experience with Rams. Can they breed at this small size and will they cause any harm to my still juvi Angels?
Any other suggestions as far as tank inhabitants? I was thinking a school of six lemon tetras or Bleeding heart tetras.
Their has been no aggression so far really.
SoulkeepeR
12-09-2002, 10:53 AM
they pretty much are peacfull, just keep an eye on the PH, they are super sensitive to the PH, just like discus
If you have Microgeophagus altispinosa (Butterfly Ram), they are almost impossible to determine the sex at under 2". They do not need the drastic water conditions of the Microgeophagus ramerizi (Blue Ram). Since they are interacting it could be simply because they are siblings and have grown up together. They are too young to breed at this time. It will be very difficult to obtain fry from any dwarf cichlids in a community setting.
Dobermann
12-09-2002, 5:27 PM
Ok these are what I have
http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/M-ramirezi-spawn2.jpg
They are a little under an inch and are acting like they want to lay eggs right in the sand. They are digging in the sand in the front right corner of the tank. I am surprised because I have read that they require very specific water requirements and are somewhat hard to breed and I have had them for one day. So it would be great if they did actually lay eggs.
So it would be hard for them to raise fry in my tank I mean they only have to defend against juvenile angels and some green swordtails?!
I hope they can raise some fry that would be cool.
Cichlid Woman
12-09-2002, 8:22 PM
Those are Blue Rams.
What's the pH in your tank?! Mine's 7.8, and I've got a male Blue Ram who's been in there a long, long time. Seems healthy, too. I'll add a female when I can get back to the lfs (an hour away) that obtains them from a breeder who uses our local water. The pH is high, and he successfully breeds them!
-- Pat
TwentyPlus
12-09-2002, 10:35 PM
how about this cute little short.../
http://www.eflowerhorn.com/straits/images/gal_02m.gif
Z Man
12-10-2002, 12:56 AM
OK Doberman, As you can see in that photo, the female has blue spangles in her side spot and the male does not. She also shows a pink belly but that may not show up unless she is filled with eggs. As for breeding, yes they will lay eggs a lot of times in a community tank whatever the water is. BUT even if the eggs turn into wigglers, the fry will not survive in hard water or a community tank. Blue Rams are not the best of parents and seem to roam around once and a while and that's when the other fish grab the fry. Once free swimming the toughest part is finding "live" food small enough so the fry can get it in their mouths. They are much smaller than Apisto fry which can eat live baby brine shrimp right away. You just can't breed these guys by mistake, I'm sorry.
Dobermann
12-10-2002, 5:47 PM
My Blue Rams just laid eggs on the sand in the front corner of my tank!!!!!
I have had them for 2 days!!! Am I good or what!
Ok so now what?
I want to keep these babies!! Somebody please help me!!!!
Cichlid Woman
12-10-2002, 5:58 PM
You're good, you're good ... I'm going to be watching this thread, because I want to breed Rams someday but I've never done it.
-- Pat
Dobermann
12-10-2002, 6:17 PM
I don't know if these eggs are going to last. The parents are still juveniles and seem abandon the eggs and start swimming around chasing each other alot....:rolleyes:
Dobermann
12-10-2002, 7:51 PM
I guess they are just too young to know what they are doing.
They laid the eggs and now they are swimming around the tank doing their mating dance and if they happen to swim by the eggs will briefly defend them and then off they go again. Are they always like this?
Luckily none of the other fish have eaten them yet but I guess it is just a matter of time.
If you will re-read my previous message you will see that that is the problem most times. That's the reason Rams should be bred in a tank by themselves. When they swim around, there is no other fish to move in and grab a snack. Then once I see the pair moving around, I remove them because they won't be good parents anyway. This is the easy part, feeding the fry is the biggest problem. Most starve to death!
Dobermann
12-10-2002, 8:30 PM
So this is not something they will "get right" as they mature?
They might but being a breeder I can't take a chance. Some people I talk to say their's take care of their fry but I wonder. I have 3 pair in a 20 long right now (not normal - just a test). Two pair spawned and they still just left the eggs and swam around. The reason for the test is I had 3 tank raised males and a good friend gave me 3 wild females. I wanted to see if they would take better care of the spawns. They don't! The wigglers are all bunched together in a corner and nobody cares much about them; I wonder how long they will last?
Dobermann
12-10-2002, 9:10 PM
This is really sort of interesting. It is not an evolutionarily sound way to reproduce.
Is this just with Blue Rams or other Rams as well?
They seem to be doing a little better now actually.
Before when I got home from work at 6pm when the male came back to the nest to seemingly relieve the female he would act as if he was relieving her then follow her around the tank.
Now he will stay with the eggs while she roams around and she does the same. So in the past three hours they have learned a thing or two? Hopefully this learning curve will continue.
Dobermann
12-11-2002, 7:28 PM
The eggs are still there. I guess the other fish haven't realized they are sitting on a gold mine.
I wonder how it will turn out. If they can make it too wrigglers maybe that will snap the parents into gear.
That didn't fire mine up. Actually that's when they got lazy and the wrigglers got eaten 2 dats ago. That was the 3rd spawn for that pair and they are getting a little better. Hope yours does much better.
Skippy
12-12-2002, 7:19 AM
This is just an idea.... and I haven't bred rams before so I don't know how the parents would react...
but what about using mesh to make a "containment net" around the parents and eggs since they're in the front corner.
two rectangular squares with mesh, the height of the tank and say 4-6 inches wide. Attach in a right angle formation to make a "column" containment area for the parents and fry.
This would also still allow you to drop food in from the top. inclusing BBS or small foods for the fry.
Just an idea.
I hope to eventually have some of those in my main tank, which will eventually be a lower PH south amreican tank featuring (hopefully) rams, cardinals and POSSIBLY discus. Heavily planted.