Is it truly humane & possible to maintain SW w/out LR?

[Zeb]

I've been around on other forums, talking to local reef geeks, and reading books....and of course, noone says the same thing.

....but I've noticed I get a good amount of flames on some forums, but not others.

The topic I get flamed for is keeping a SW FO tank without the help of LR....

Specifically, I've been asking if my proposed setup would be apporopriate. ( That would be a 30 gallon tank, actinic light, aragonite substrate, Hagen Biolife internel wet/dry filter, Hagen Power head, tufa rock & dead corals, and maybe a skimmer. )

As you can see, it's a very simple setup....but this is my first time with SW, and my only goal is to properly care for the fish themselves. ( And easy fish at that....such as damsels, percula clowns, firefish. )

Anyways..... some of the points that came up were feeding. I was told that without LR I could never truly support them. ( I had said I would feed a mix of flake, brine, chopped fish, etc. )

I was also told that without LR, and especially without a skimmer, algae would go out of control within a few months.

Is any of that true?

Then I was blamed for trying to simulate a "petco" style tank, that could only support fish for a short time.

Any of your insight is appreciated....

[Drake Titan]

LR?????

whats that...thanks!

[Anaxus]

Maby a mod can move this to SW. They will be able to help you there

[RENEGADE]

kool aid can't help:p na-nnan-nna-nan-na-na

[SBA]

LR = Live Rock?

Agree this is for SW forum though as don't know the first thing about it:)

[OrionGirl]

Of course a tank can be run without live rock. The use of live rock is not new, but it is a recent development, and people were keeping SW tanks a long time prior to it's introduction to the hobby.

For feeding, clowns, damsels and fire fish will be fine with regular feeding of a good, varied foods. There are some fish that require algae and such, but you can even provide those without live rock.

What you do get with live rock: a variety of life. A great media for nitrification bacteria to thrive. Natural hiding places for shy fish.

Of these, the hiding places for fish is probably the most important. Reef fish are sued to being able to duck away and hide. Deprived of this, they will be stressed, behave un-naturally, and have suppressed immune function.

I won't flame anyone who chooses not to use live rock, but I'd like to make sure they understand the benefits of using LR, both in terms of maintenance and the impacts on the fish. You can provide comparable structures for hiding, and additional media for bacteria, but why bother when you can get all of the benefits with just live rock?

[kreblak]

Agree with Oriongirl. You can set up a tank without live rock, but LR makes things SO MUCH EASIER! Fish are much happier with it in the tank, they dart in and out, and sleep in the crevices. Plus, some fish (triggers, wrasses, etc) will reareange the LR to suit their taste. Plus, with live rock, you get hitchhikers like macroaglaes, feather dusters, and worms that make life better for everyone. My live rock imported some corraline algae which has been great. I also got a few tube worms, and some feather dusters which my hermits promptly attached to their shells as camoflague. Live rock might be relatively expensive, but think of it this way, it is a one time cost with nearly unlimited use and benefits.

[SamsonNY]

I'm new to this (s/w) but, from all of the research and, of course, my personal preference, I won't be using LR and, as OrionGirl said (and I agree), it's not necessary.

I have dead corals (huge, intricate pieces; some dead, some artificial) in the tank which give plenty of hiding places. A 4" DSB (caribean aragonite) which will be my method to achieve the goal of nitrate reduction. My w/d (with bioballs) will be my bio filter (ammonia and nitrites) along with my Ocean Clear canister for added mechanical filtration.

I did go with a protein skimmer since I will have a FO predator tank.


I'd say, take the "negatively" tuned advice with a grain of salt (IE: listen to it, absorb what you want, but have the internal ignore filter ready to go :p ). You're always going to run across individuals that know the BEST way of doing it, and if you're way is not same, then your way is the wrong way. :rolleyes:

Good luck with your tank. :)

[Zeb]

Oh man, did I post this in a FW forum? My bad...I didn't even know.

OK....so far I've found that RO is pretty much a must. So if I have to have RO, then I should probably just get LR.

What are the disadvantages of LR? Not being able to medicate fish?

Would a skimmer be less important with LR?

Does LR " propagate" into dead sand, making live sand?

Would pieces of LR reproduce organisms that would spread and colonize pieces of dead rock?


Thanks for your help...

[OrionGirl]

There aren't really many disadvantages to live rock. The potential for a unwanted hitch hikers like mantis shrimp...And medicating the main tank isn't usually advisable anyway. Copper would be the only thing that you really wouldn't want to use, due to it's effects on invertebrates. A quarantine tank will prevent the need for most medicating either way.

Skimmers and live rock serve different purposes. Live rock provides an area for bacteria, skimmers remove protiens from the water column.

The critters and bacteria from live rock will spread onto anything else in the tank--sand, rock, etc. Getting rock from multiple sources or adding detrivore kits will help increase the variety of life in there, but it can all come from the rock. Just slower that way.

[wayne]

I have the pleasure of being able to remember fishkeeping before the popularity of live rock. As I recall, marine tanks then were hard to maintain, equipment heavy and usually everything died in tank crashes. Live rock, and the Berlin system (+ mods) made everything a whole lot easier.
So yeah, for sure it's possible to keep a tank going without live rock, but I can't see the point because you're just making life hard for yourself, and I don't think the end result is evergoing to be as good, unless you want to really work at having a fantastic sand bed fauna. Plus you're always going to have hassle keeping tangs, angels and butterflies for example alive as it will be very difficult for you to sort out adequate nutrition.
I don't really understand the mentality of having dead corals in the tank, but it's your choice. Actually it's not because the destructive trade in dead corals is now regulated.
I guess the number 1 disadvantage of live rock is the cost, but you can't expect everything to be cheap. Killing a few hundred of fish, and having to break a tank down isn''t cheap either. I've seen a few mails recently from people wanting to know if live rock is necassary, I have a biowheel , cannister etc...... Well I don't want to sound smug (actually I don't really care), but it's not like this is a new experiment - it was all done a long time ago and people moved on. MAybe sand bed filtration will be the next big thing, maybe not.
I don't know how well a sand bed can denitrify, but I know a wet dry on a preadtor tank is a **** good nitrate machine, and if you want to remove them, and at some point you will, you'd beter have a plan. I'd guess wet/dry makers have a tougher future than live rock companies.

[SamsonNY]

Wayne,

First, fair enough. Maybe my stubbornness (sp?) will be my doom later on.... :p

But, I am very curious about your point on angels and tangs and feeding problems.
Can you further explain, please?

My (revised) fish list will be:
clown trigger
niger trigger
golden dog face puffer
stars and stripes puffer (hopefully 2 puffers will be okay)
yellow tang
hippo tang
emperor angel

Feeding will consist of AquaDyne (or fin, or something, the LFS sells it per amounts you request and highly recommends it for it's nutritional value) along with shrimp, squid, mussels, etc. (all cut up).

What's your opinion on this? Thanks.

Richard.

[BrianH]

Samson,

I think what wayne is talking about regarding live rock and feeding of tangs & angels is that tangs & angels need a lot of "greens" in their diet which can be satisfied with macro algea growing on LR. Picking this macro algae off the LR will also give them something to do while they are in a fish tank. These fish are very active, and providing some activity(like picking off the LR) will make them more comfortable.

IMHO I would add a good amount of nori (seaweed) to your list of foods. You are definitely going to need it for your stocking list.

Brian

[SamsonNY]

Thanks Brian.

[Ray Pollett]

one of the reasons people use LR instead of dead corals has been touched on: Stress. Just like people who are stressed, fish go thru the same problems. Their immune system deteriates and they get sick and die easier.

Why do they get more stressed out with dead corals. 2 reasons normally. 1: they usually do not have enough hidding areas to retreat to when alarmed or to sleep. 2: When people remove the dead corals to clean them ( and to replace them if any bleach remains).

With adequate LR you remove both of these areas that create stress on the fish. Yes, some people; me included; consider intentionally setting up a tank in a manner that will cause unneeded stress on fish is cruel and inumane.

SamsonNY,

I thought you were setting up a 90 gallon tank. My memeroy is not clear on this. But if it is a ninty that is a very overstocked tank you planned.

Ray

[SamsonNY]

Ray,

No, it's a 400 gallon (8' long x 40" wide x 24" high) and it's already set-up.

Richard.

[Ray Pollett]

SamsonNY,

That makes a big difference. I got your tank confused with someone elses. Sorry.

Ray

[SamsonNY]

No problem at all.

Richard.