Can I ask a retailing question of you all?

[KateA.]

I hope this is appropriate here. If not just ignore me! It seems like many here are shopping on the Internet and buying things out of the newspaper-used- and I'm curious to know the reason. Is it strictly the cost? Or doesn't your local fish store carry these items or can't they get them for you? I used to be a bargain shopper too, but have changed over the years. I'm into the "service" thing and I will shop locally 9 times outta 10 regardless of the price. I think that comes from being a small local retailer all these years, but also the fact that I like my dollars to stay local and to go to people I know. Internet shopping is becoming so easy and common now, and I can see its effects now and then on our business, so I'm curious about how we can counteract that. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[750t]

I agree with you,if we didnt buy from the lfs there wouldnt be any. But on the other hand I refuse to pay twice as much for a item. Ie ac500 lfs $79.95 on line $33.00 even with shipping still saving a ton. I do try to give them as much of my buisness as I can but with some items it just dont make sense. Tim

[ArkyLady]

I only have one small LFS here in town, but I will buy everything from him that I can IF it's not priced too high. For instance, he had a Penguin Mini for $24, I can get one online for $16, but with shipping and having to wait a few days it's worth the extra few dollars to me to have it now. For the most part his prices are pretty decent, so if he has what I'm looking for (or is willing to add it to his next order), I'm happy to buy from him.

If I need a lot of things at once, then I usually buy it online because I can save a few bucks on each item and the shipping isn't so much for multiple items.

I own a small computer store/repair shop, so I have the same issues to deal with. People can generally buy things online cheaper than I can sell them for (sometimes cheaper than I can buy them for! haha), but we service what we sell and if they do have something that breaks we can have them up and running in a day or two as opposed to them having to ship things back to wherever they bought it from and waiting a week or two. Then again some people think "This item is $10 cheaper online than in this store, I'll buy it online" then they end up paying $10 to have it shipped and waiting 3-5 days for it to arrive. Oh well :)

*EDIT* Do you have a local aquarium club? Perhaps you could work with them and give their members some type of discount. It may also be good to have seminars/workshops on fishkeeping now and then. These could either be hosted by the aquarium club or by you. I've also thought that educating new customers would be a good approach. That way instead of them buying a 10 gallon setup and a handful of fish that die and they give up, they'll end up with a 10 gallon setup that they fall in love with then later they'll want a 30 and a 55, etc. You know how addicting this hobby can be :)

[OrionGirl]

Second that. I support my LFS--I buy fish from them, I buy food, tanks, ect. But, for filters and filter media, or lighting, the cost difference is too much. Paying $2-3 more is one thing, paying double just doesn't make sense.

I shop online a lot, much more for non-fish items. The reason there is simple--the products are not available locally. I buy most of my clothes online, and even if I have to return it, it's still cheaper than driving to Denver to find a better selection. Yesterday, I bought some accessories for my digital camera, and I tried to purchase them locally first. No one even knew these things existed, let alone offer to order them for me.

Spending my dollars locally would be better. One of the reasons I shop the farmers market, and as much locally as I can. However, when that is much more costly, or not an option, I'll continue shopping the internet.

[dave76]

It is mainly cost for me, If I can buy a full setup for $250 vs $650 to me it is a no brainer. And as for service, I get no better protection than buying something with my Visa card. If I am sold defective merchandise, I first go to the seller for a refund or exchange, and if they are non responsive or think that I will just go away by them ignoring me (ebay) I just dispute the charges with Visa and I get my money back. For me it is about price and security. I also enjoy giving back to my community, but most LFS are waaaaaay over priced. I mean $20 dollars for a rock, a power filter for $50 dollars that I can buy for $23 dollars online? Its rediculous. I support my LFS, but I have a family to support as well ya know, and I would rather put my kids through college than thiers.

[JSchmidt]

My biggest reason for buying online is selection. My LFS doesn't carry much of what I want: Eheim filters, EboJager heaters, etc.

A second reason is price. I cannot see paying 2 or 3 times as much on bigger ticket items just to support my LFS. That's the case if I try to order something that's not normally stocked.

I support my LFS when I can. I buy tanks there. I buy fish food. I buy light bulbs. I buy substrate.

I don't like the idea of LFSs disappearing, but it seems that they need to come up with a different business model if they're to compete with the online places.

Jim

[125gJoe]

Last Sunday I went to try and find a regulator, a powerhead, and CF lights at a LFS here and I refuse to pay almost a 100% mark-up. Forget the regulator - they don't stock that..

Over-pricing, dirty aquariums can be easily fixed. But, do some of these LFS's want to?

Sunday I left the store feeling like the owners must think most customers are willing to over-pay, or the average customer is clue-less.

Now, I don't think all LFS's are that way - just the one's over here... LOL

[mogurnda]

I try to support the LFS, but I have serious ethical issues with 2 of the 3 local ones. One often has unhealthy livestock, the other sells fish and invertebrates that should not be sold (like dorid nudibranchs), so I don't like to patronize either of them. The third is a 20 min drive away and doesn't always have everything. But I have spent a lot there on fish and food.

Mostly it's convenience. Premium Aquatics, e.g., has a huge selection, fantastic service and is a click away. Inland Aquatics has great tank-raised livestock that my LFS never has.

As far as used stuff, it's both an issue of money, plus it's kind of like a treasure hunt going through old stuff.

[Rocketman]

Well, I bought my whole 60G setup online (bigalsonline.com) for about $200, (minues the tank, which I bought from one LFS, and the gravel, which I bought at Meijer.)

Interestinly enough, that LFS has since gone out of business, and I now work at the Pet Supplies Plus across the street from Meijjer, (for those of you who don't have a Meijjer, it's like a Wal-Mart times 10. They have horrible fish.)

The other day, someone brought in an online ad for a Fluval 4 or something. The price online was $111. The price in our store was $176 - and this is a large chain, (but with a local owner and manager - I actually think we DBA, Do Business As.) Yet most of our customers buy Dog Food, and those who do look at aquirium supplies rarely buy anytthing that is cheaper online - meaning, we don't even get those people in the store. The only filters we really sell, (although we have everything except Eheim,) are to people just setting up tanks, or to people that know they can get it cheaper online, butam not sure what to get, and need face-to-face advice. You cannot get much help online, I think this is a major factor, (most people don't know about these forums.)

But Live Fish, for example, is something I would never buy online.

By the way, visit Pet Supplies Plus on Rochester Road in Michigan, new managment!

[JSchmidt]

With some notable exceptions, I think many LFSs distribute the worst advice and are great sources of misinformation. I don't mean to hijack this into a 'bash the LFSs' thread, but if the best we can say about LFSs is that they give out free advice, I'd suggest it often is worth what it costs... if that much.

Many of us have bought online fish and have had good luck. I much prefer getting to see the fish and making my own selection, but for many less common species, online fish selling is the only way to go.

Jim

[29gallonsteve]

With few exceptions I think the greatest issue is that many LFS (at least in my area) are PET Stores, not Fish Stores. Let's face it, fish don't bark/scream/holler/tweet when they are sick or dying.

I assume ye ole' toilet gets used alot in the LFS. It is much harder to dispose of a large parrot or dog if it gets ill. So, I assume that there is much more attention paid to the other pets. Think about it, you never look into the bird cages/dog kennels and see a group 'pets' chomping down one another.

Equipment is very expensive for the LFS (because of a lack of bulk buying, I assume). Is it that they are overpaying wholesale b/c they are buying in such small quantities?

I agree with my man, Jim, on the issues of advice. There is such a slack attitude with most LFS. I get my advice from some of the experts in the industry...namely, all of you (well most of you...lol).

Thanks,
steve

[Dabbler II]

I have only been in this fish thing for about 9 months now. From the storys I am reading here you guys must have crappy LFS :confused: Very rarly I pay full price for fish or equipment. I deal with one store mostly and the information I get from the store is great ( no bad advice ) There are some things I would get online like lights you can't beat the price ( $300 for 550 watts of cf light verses $1100 at big al's). As one person said earlier if you don't support the LFS then you will be buying off the net for everything (and if that happeneds then where are you going to get that heater when it quits at 5:00 in the afternoon). I don't beleave in buying fish over the net( too many DOA's that I have heard about), I have to see them before I buy them.
edit:Get to know your LFS's take care of them and they will take care of you.

[NJ Devils Fan]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
Second that. I support my LFS--I buy fish from them, I buy food, tanks, ect. But, for filters and filter media, or lighting, the cost difference is too much. Paying $2-3 more is one thing, paying double just doesn't make sense.


I do the same thing. I was just at my LFS a few days ago, and I needed to get filter cartridges for my emperors, and a 2 pack was $7.99, meanwhile on Big Al's, a 4 pack which I need is $8.49. I did get Stress Coat and a few fish there, but I just won't pay double the price for what I can get at Big Al's. I also got a prefilter sponge for my powerhead and the total on Big Al's even withthe shipping was about $21 which is just great. And, I will get everything by Friday, which will be in time for my Saturday water change and maintaince.

[KateA.]

Wow! Thanks for the great responses everyone! This sorta confirms what I was thinking. As far as the cheaper prices online thing, let me add my perspective. Wholesalers and manufacturers really treat small stores unfairly by giving volume discounts to chain stores. We all know who the biggest U.S. retailer is and they quite regularly price items at or below our COST on items. How the heck can we compete? And that's a big retail trick: sell a few select items at or below your cost to draw people in, then sell them other stuff. We've had folks bring in ads from online and say, I want this can you match the price? There is no way. Mostly it is on big ticket items like fancy lighting and large filters. The only way we have found to fight back is to try to provide as complete and accurate advice we can, so that at least we get them back in the store and maybe they will buy something. And we could always do better on that aspect. (BTW I have recommended folks to this site when asked about a good online information source! );) Since we've moved our store I have been looking for all kinds of ways to get folks into the store and we plan on doing more workshops and stuff with manufacturer reps in the future. Our other store was just too small and we didn't have the room. Thanks again for all the help!

[mogurnda]

The only way we have found to fight back is to try to provide as complete and accurate advice we can Having been an LFS employee, and having shopped in these places for decades, I have to say that this is variable even at a good store. One has to know which employee to trust.
I hope that all your employees give reliable advice. If so, I hope that your customers spread the word, and that your business succeeds. I worked for 2 stores in college. One was run as a business, and I ultimately got tired of the livestock (and employees) being treated as mechandise and quit. The second was run by and for hobbyists, and focus was always on quality livestock and advice. Guess which one spread all over the county, and which folded.

[KateA.]

I like to think we are trying to be hobbyists and are focused on that. Some of our employees have fish tanks, fresh and/or marine, and those usually give the best advice. They are also the ones who our customers flock to or ask for. We definitely have some who don't know enough, but they are all pretty good about finding someone to ask for further advice. We are extremely lucky! My brother started this business in his garage in college, selling fish to students. He never finished college!

[OrionGirl]

I think that's a really important thing to address. One of the biggest lacks in my LFS is knowledge. The owners are great, and really know what they are talking about. I have no problem asking advice. Some of the employees, on the other hand, do not know as much. I don't have a problem with that, but I do object when they give bad advice. Employees need to know that saying "I don't know, let's find out" is a much better answer than making something up. Not pointing fingers, but I've seen it happen at stores.

I would never ask my LFS to meet an online price. If I thought it was feasible, I wouldn't be shopping online in the first place.

[Cearbhaill]

I have access to two different types of stores- neither being particularly better than the other.

Store #1 is new and shiny and smells nice. The tanks are relatively clean, and the selection decent enough. No one there knows much more than I do about fishkeeping- the clerks are your basic $8 an hour kids. They will do anything to avoid waiting on a customer- you've never seen someone as intent on emptying garbage cans as a clerk avoiding a customer. During one of my initial visits I actually went to the manager and said "I have $900 in my sock and no one will even say 'can I help you' ". I get waited on pretty quickly nowadays, but think the shops attitude towards customers stinks.

Store #2 is dark and dank and smells like fish food. It is a typical "hobbiest shop"- I think the owners just wanted a huge personal fish room not a business. While the owners themselves might know a bit about fish- they are always way too intent on doing some sort of exotic maintenance to their pet tanks and have the same $8 an hour clerks skulking about avoiding customers. You just cannot get waited on.

Now I know a thing or two about running a fish shop- it was my families business while I was a child. We would have been horsewhipped had we neglected a customer- the customers are the key to the whole operation. The customers need to know that you are around- ready to help in any way possible and do it with a smile on your face. What on earth ever happened to service?? Game face?

I'm getting on in years and am considering semi- retirement. I'd like a nice part time job just to fill my time and pay for my obsessions. But at the $8 these stores are willing to pay I'll stay home and garden. I would be an outstanding asset to any shop yet none are willing to pay for such an asset.

Businesses need to invest in their own future by hiring serious employees, paying them well, and providing continuing education for them so they can further benefit the customers and hence the business. How can a small LFS afford to pay enough to get good, consistent, reliable, knowledgable help?

I don't know, but it seems a key part of the equation. I'm in a major metro area and these are the two best shops in my entire county- something isn't right.

If I could get something in a Store #3 that I simply cannot find anywhere else (service and expertise) then I would happily go the extra mile and extra dollar to support them.
But to give these stores extra money just to "support your local LFS"??
No way.
They don't deserve extra consideration because they give me none.

Big Al's any day of the week.

[Tim Bo]

I can choose from about 3 local LFS' and two large chains. Two of the LFS' I do not frequent other that to look at fish since their prices are high and they do not know much about their inventory. The last LFS is a great store that has higher prices for some thngs but is very knowledgable. I remeber seeing them refuse to sell 4 fish to a customer who didn't seem to care or understand the importance of cycling a tank - they explained the whole process etc and once finished she wanted to buy 4 trophues moori anyway. The owner looked completely perplexed and refused to sell them. These were expensive fish too! She stormed out and said she would never set foot in the store again. I then went over and told him how impressed I was and said I would be setting my foot in his store many times from now on.
The largest chain store I do not go to very often, though this is paritially also due to distance. The place is huge and interesting and I am sure it has meant the death of a few LFS' in the area. They even have tours for kids to roam around the aquariums, birds, reptiles etc. No LFS in my area can match that...

[tnlguinn]

i know my LFS owner very well, and never do i pay the asking price for his goods. he would much rather give me the quantity discount because i frequent the store and buy supplies and livestock. his staff with a couple of exceptions are very knowledgable and the exceptions know how to ask for help. he knows the customers that are fly by night buyers that are there to buy something and never return and his "customers". he carries what sells well in his store most of the time, but has never refused to get me anything i have asked for, even letting me refuse to take the item if i'm not 110% satisfied. GREAT STORE!!! but, he knows that he cannot beat the prices online on hardware items and even refered me to TFP and Big Als when i wanted to buy a fluval 404. he also told me that he doesn't expect to make money off of his hardware because i can buy i as cheap as he can. he makes 90% of his business on livestock and supplies such as water conditioners and food.

as for buying used items instead of new, its all about price. i bought my 125 gallon setup complete for $250, thats chaeper than the tank or the stand alone. it had everything including a fish. i found it at the LFS on the "post for sale" board. the owner knew that if i bought the tank i would return for supplies and to replace the things i wasn't happy with in the setup. he was right and therfore deserves my business.

the only chain that i frequent is Petsmart, and that is only to buy decorations. they have the best prices and choice to be had anywhere around. and guess who refered me to them, my LFS owner.

[KateA.]

Yes, it is extremely difficult to hire knowledgable employees who really WANT to help. We've learned a few things over the years and we have a pretty good policy in place now. New hires get about a month to prove to us they want to work there. They have to be on time, with very few exceptions; they have to make an effort to learn, stay busy, ask questions, jump in and help.....Believe it or not, I had 2 new hires last fall who were both late THE FIRST DAY of work. They were chronically late and besides being lazy, just didn't have the personality to meet and greet customers. We let them go and gladly. Years ago we were so desperate for employees we put up with stuff like that a lot longer. We are in a small college town and would love to find longer term employees willing to do grunt work AND gravy work!! The sales training that we do now is really effective (meet/greet/ask questions/problem solve) and working with product reps helps too. They can be a good, free resource for all LFS's and they should take advantage of them. But when your workforce changes every year, it gets hard. And you're right about paying full price. If you are a good, dependable customer, your LFS should bend over backwards to give you satisfaction and a good value. Thanks everybody, you've given me some great feedback and ideas.

[Zeb]

I used to work at a LFS....and I have to say it was probably the happiest I have ever been.

Anyways, I used to rant and rave online about why you should support your local retailers.....and I bent over backwards for my customers, writing down books & website of interest, and spending alot of time explaining whatever they needed. I even took home quite a few books on the two types of pets I then knew nothing about.....reptiles and birds. I am now what I'd call on a "advanced" level on keeping reptiles and amphibians, and the basics of birds.

.....but in the end, the owner fired me. Why? Because I suggested a new way to care for her *dying* reptiles, and brought to work caresheets, books, and even lab studies. She said that I was too "aggressive" and she would never hire another hobbyist again. Personally, I think there were other reasons....but that is a whole different story. ( after all, she certainly didn't think I was aggressive when we went out for breakfast, etc. )

On the subject of this thread: It all depends. I will pay alot for a fish locally that I can get cheaper online....just because it's there. But for the most part, noone carries or will work to find the fish I request.

.....an Aquaclear 500 is $80 locally, and $30 online. So I always buy filters online.

....noone locally will carry ebojager heaters, or a similar quality. So I go online.

Mainly, I shop online for variety and decent pricing. If locals could provide it, I would gladly pay the markup price.

.......of course, I'll never let my ex-employer bring me down. I'm good at what I do, and I know it....I think my business in the future will prove that.

[KateA.]

Too bad you're in Montana, cause we'd hire ya.

[frisco]

I like receiving items in the mail other than bills. I lead a dull life and knowing a package is coming is exciting for me.

[Zeb]

Too bad you're in Montana, cause we'd hire ya.

Yeah, It is a shame.....

....but hey, congrats for being a good store. They DO exist, but are far and few between.

[Erika]

I agree that some lfs employees are clueless. When I was setting up my 125 and having problems cycling it, I spoke with a man who told me I HAD TO HAVE at least 2 Aquaclear 300 filters and 2 penguin powerheads, without a doubt. They only had one auquclear and when I went in the next day with my hubby, he acted like I was an idiot for looking to follow his advice. I can tell you that this location is one I would rather avoid after this incident.
However, a different lfs has an employee who is extremely knowledgeable and remembers who I am even if I don't go in for a month. His store also carries excellent fish that you can't find just anywhere!:D

[Deliverme314]

I just dropped 800 bucks on equipment for my new 90 gallon over the net. I chose to do this because everything I needed was going to need to be ordered by an LFS anyway so I would be waiting for it regardless and would have paid $100 bucks more on filtration alone. About 300 total... I am a firm advocate of supporting local stores but not at $300 exspense. I will be doing all my live stock order trhough them though which will amount to about 500 bucks.

[Jak Crow]

I've been getting all my equipment online. My LFstores charge too much for things like lights, light fixtures (depending) and filters, with some online places having high end lighting for $100 less than the LFS and various filters for $50 less. Things get a little more reasonable when it comes to various media though, and I buy fish locally.