New Tank

[SumthinFishy]

OK, I've read through all the posts in the newbie forum...thank you for all the useful information so far.
Anyway, I bought a tank for my bedroom: 58 gal Oceanic Show tank (already keep a freshwater in the living room). With the tank I bought a Fluval 404 (great filtration for a freshwater tank that size) thinking I was going to stick with freshwater (maybe do the cichlid thing) and after thinking it over I decided to take a walk on the salty side :cool:

A couple things I want to clarify/check on before I start mixing my water and getting everything going:
- Since I still have the box & receipt for the filter I ought to just take it back? As long as I have my dsb and live rock (added AFTER my fishless cycle) I won't need to use it as a filter? I can save some money and just use powerheads (10 gph for my tank size)? :confused:
- And how do you use a powerhead anyway? :confused:
- I need about 300 lb live rock over the base rock under the sand (well not really under, but the sand is over the base rock, I get it)? but...I can use about half that in live rock and use it to seed lace rock?
- How much base rock do I need?
- How do I decide if I want a FO or fowlr or reef tank? They mostly look the same to me except the reefs have stuff like anemone?
- If I went with a reef I can wait on elaborate lighting since I can't put them guys in for like ever (ok 6 months, but when you want something that's a long time :D ) right?

Sorry so many questions, just want to make sure I cover my bases before I get into this without all the proper information.
Again, thank you so much for all the help so far.

[BrianH]

Sumthinfishy,

Welcome to the salty side. I'm sure someone will come along and offer you some kool aid to go with your new salt water.:)

As far as the live rock goes, the general rule of thumb is 1 - 1.5 lbs per gallon which would translate roughly into between 60 and 90lbs for your 58 gallon tank. If you plan on buying the LR online (uncured) I would put it in the tank from the beginning and use the die off from the rock kick off your fishless cycle, If you plan to purchase cured LR from your LFS, then wait until your fishless cycle is complete then add the cured LR so you don't kill any of the creatures on the rock. The difference in the two types of rock (uncured & cured) is that uncured is usually about half the price but you still need to cure it. Uncured rock also comes with more hitchikers, some good, some bad.

I would take back the filter and get yourself a good protein skimmer.

Go to a few lfs's and take a look at their tanks and decide if you would like a reef tank or FOWLR. Only you can make this decision.
If you plan on a reef, you can add the lighting later.

Good luck and welcome to the salty side.

Brian

[SumthinFishy]

At this point, cost is a little bit of an issue (that's why I spent 3 weeks with an empty tank making sure I was willing to spend the money). BUT, I am willing to spend what it takes. On the other hand, if there is a less-expensive, yet still effective, alternative I'd prefer that way...why do you think I bought the tank? It was on sale!!!
So I could do the fishless cycle with shrimp, and then when I'm close to the end, I can start curing the rock to add after the cycle?
:confused: I hate feeling like an idiot!!

Daleen

[BrianH]

If you buy uncured rock you can use that to do the fishless cycle. Since your trying to save some cash I would suggest buying the uncured rock to save money and provide the ammonia source for your fishless cycle. You can also use 50% live rock & 50% base rock to save some ca$h. Just add it all at the beginning so the bacteria populates the base rock as well as the live rock.

Do a google search on live rock dealers. I have a feeling that you can get even better deals out in Cal. since many of the retailers of Fiji live rock sell out of Cal. This way you would save on shipping charges.

Brian

[Ray Pollett]

There are numberous ways to do a tank. I do mine different; and it has worked for me and countless others.

Take the Fuval Back. I throw out 9 of their 404's last year and replaced them for free with other filters for my customers. My opinion a piece of junk.

I would set up the 58 like this. Cheap and works.

2 - Emperor 400 filters from Drs Foster & smith www.drsfostersmith.com

Or www.bigalsonline.com

About $45.00 each.

3-4 inches of playsand from Home Depot or Lowes. About $10.00

50 pounds base rock from www.hirock.com

1 EboJager heater 200Watt for about $19.00 from Big als or Drs Foster & smith.

Set a layer of base rock on glass bottom. Pour sand in till 3-4 inches deep around rock. Put rest of base rock in tank were it will be hidden by Live Rock (LR) when you add it. Put heater were you want it, hid by rock when all the LR is added. Put on the 2 filters, use media pads, remove bio-wheels and throw Bio-wheels away.

Mix up saltwater and pour slowly into tank till filled. Turn on heater and filters. Add 2 or 3 fresh whole shrimp from the supermarket. This will cycle the tank. Usually in 3-4 weeks; althought I have heard of it taking up to 9 weeks.

After tank is cycled put in the LR to suit your taste, probably around another 50 pounds. Remember you can add this slowly a piece or two at a time if you like. Add detrivore lits. One from www.IPSF.com ( 9 for $99) include the live sand activator and Wonder Mud as two of your choices. I usually add a second detrivore kit from either Garfs or Inland aquatics.

There are many places to get LR from on line. I use www.tampabaysaltwater.com for some of mine.

After LR and detrivores are in wait atleast three weeks to add fish.

What lights you will need depends on what you decide to keep in the tank. For Fish only any light that looks pleasing to you is fine. For a reef you will need better ( brighter) lights.

Ray

[kreblak]

I agree with Ray 100% on the emperor 400 filters. I have one, and it provides an excellent amount of water movement for the tank. The tank it is on is a very simple set up. When I set it up, I didn't know how to properly use and set up powerheads. The emperor filter has basically done everything for me. It was so dang simple, that I just left it in place, even after I learned all about powerheads.

[Sting]

I don't use any filtration whatsoever besides my live rock and live sand (which have yet to actually become live yet). Unlike Ray, I just use a Powerhead, and am looking to buy a second in the future. A Powerhead just sucks in the water and shoots it out faster. To measure how fast it shoots the water out, people use the term gallons per hour (GPH) Turning over you tank's size 5-10 time per hour is the speed you should aim for. IOW, you can buy 2 MaxiJet 900/1200 and be fine. You just stick them to the side of your tank, plug them in, and they work. MaxiJets are the best powerheads foryour money. If you buy them from Fosters and Smith, you can get them a lot cheaper than in the LFS (I paid 35$ for a 900 and in the catalog it's only 18$!). Whether you use a filter or not, ti's your money, but either way works. The problem with carbon filters/bio balls is that they remove vital microscopic creatures that live in the water and feed your fish, corals, and inverts. Lighting depends on your desires. If you'd like to house corals (whether soft, stony, sponges ect) you'll have to raise your lighting by...a ton. "Softies" require 3-5 watts per gallon, but basic wattage is not everything you're aiming for. All corals need a good amount of blue light to thrive, this kind of lighting is called actinic, and must be present for corals to grow. Four types of lighting are available. NO (Normal Output) VHO (Very High Output) MH (Metal Hallide) or PC (Power Compact). Lighting can be very expensive, but you ahve to cover the two basic factors, Kelvin and Actinic. The best of both are the setups which incluce Actinic 03 and 10,000K. Softies are the easiest corals to keep, and moving into SPS (basically stonies- acropora ect) they get a little harder, and require more lighting. A very satisfying tank can be attained without stonies, so unless you have to have them, you'll be fine without.

Um...where am I going with this...

You've got the shrimp process...Live rock- covered...Live sand...In case no one said anything already, your sand and rock will all become live eventually, so live sand really sin't necessary. Aragonite sand (CC= Crushed Coral) isn't necessary but provides a buffer for your pH which should be around 8.0-8.4. Silica sand is FINE for an aquarium no matter how much BS you're LFS will try and give you about diatoms- and it's cheap at HD for 4$ every 50 lbs.

Salinity- You're going to have to buy a hydrometer (12$ tops) to measure the salinity of your water. It should always range around 1.024 (1.021-1.025 is ok) and it's really easy to test. Fill it up with water and watch the arm go up. Evaporation will occur in the tank- but when the water evaporates it leaves behind the salt- therefore the salt builds up and creates a higher salinity level. All you do then is add fresh RO/DI water to the tank to bring the salinity levels back down. There's also such a thing as specific gravity but I always get it mixed up with the salinity, and as long as one of the levels reads 1.024 the other is automatically ok- so you'll be fine.

Er, I tried to cover a lot of the basics- you're tank will take approximately 1 month to cycle fully, a great algea outbreak will occur (don't fret- it happens) and if you ahve any more questions whatsoever- feel free to ask. The main two things are0 READING and PATIENCE. Without these two- you get no where. Look at me, a month ago I woke up one morning and said to myself "I want a saltwater fish tank" and now I am well versed in marine aquatics (although learning more by the day). You just have to keep up with it. The possibilities are endless, and the information is endless. Just don't forget to have fun!

Good Luck! :) Don't be shy, just ask questions!

(Check out "Converting from FW to SW...Oh Lordy!" for an extensive prolonged endless supply of beginners information. I ahve asked every question under the sun in that post- and you may benefit from it- LOL)

[kreblak]

I just realized that I didn't make one point clear. I am running the emperor filters without filtration media. I am basically using them as glorified powerheads. That is why I said they are so simple.

[Ray Pollett]

First this is not a flame, just a counter post to the information. Remember there are many ways to do things.

"I don't use any filtration whatsoever besides my live rock and live sand (which have yet to actually become live yet). Unlike Ray, I just use a Powerhead, and am looking to buy a second in the future. A Powerhead just sucks in the water and shoots it out faster. To measure how fast it shoots the water out, people use the term gallons per hour (GPH) Turning over you tank's size 5-10 time per hour is the speed you should aim for. IOW, you can buy 2 MaxiJet 900/1200 and be fine. You just stick them to the side of your tank, plug them in, and they work. MaxiJets are the best powerheads foryour money. If you buy them from Fosters and Smith, you can get them a lot cheaper than in the LFS (I paid 35$ for a 900 and in the catalog it's only 18$!). Whether you use a filter or not, ti's your money, but either way works. "

Two reasons I use emperor 400 over powerheads(PHs). 1- heat can be an issue. PHs are in the water and put more heat into a tank than a hang on the Back(HOB) filter. 2 - I've never seen a filter fall off from it's position causing sand storms. This in it's self is not bad, probably good for the aquarium; but annoying.

"The problem with carbon filters/bio balls is that they remove vital microscopic creatures that live in the water and feed your fish, corals, and inverts."

Actually one of the reasons I use a filter with the media. The media is a great place for the small pods to collect, grow and breed. Actually giving you more in the tank than you have otherwise.

"Lighting depends on your desires. If you'd like to house corals (whether soft, stony, sponges ect) you'll have to raise your lighting by...a ton. "Softies" require 3-5 watts per gallon, but basic wattage is not everything you're aiming for."

I can live with that statement

" All corals need a good amount of blue light to thrive, this kind of lighting is called actinic, and must be present for corals to grow. "

A false statement. Test have shown that the Intensity is more important than the spectrum. While Blue (actinic) is good it is not nessecary. We use it because for many years the lights had spectrums that were not pleaseing to the eye. We found that addind the actinic bulbs made it much more pleaseing to our eyes. Corals MAY do better with actinic; still in question, but they are not nessecary for success.


Softies are the easiest corals to keep, and moving into SPS (basically stonies- acropora ect) they get a little harder, and require more lighting. A very satisfying tank can be attained without stonies, so unless you have to have them, you'll be fine without.

"Salinity- You're going to have to buy a hydrometer (12$ tops) to measure the salinity of your water. It should always range around 1.024 (1.021-1.025 is ok) and it's really easy to test. Fill it up with water and watch the arm go up. Evaporation will occur in the tank- but when the water evaporates it leaves behind the salt- therefore the salt builds up and creates a higher salinity level. All you do then is add fresh RO/DI water to the tank to bring the salinity levels back down. There's also such a thing as specific gravity but I always get it mixed up with the salinity, and as long as one of the levels reads 1.024 the other is automatically ok- so you'll be fine."

First Hydrometers are Extremely inacurate. Use the salinity side instead. It will still be inacurate but is the better of the two choices. Have the Hydrometer calibated often by a refractometer. (the much better choice; but usually over $100.00)

SG is the side that reads 1.024. Salinity is the side that reads 34.
Try to keep the Salinity between 34 and 36.

Ray

[Sting]

Welcome to AquariaCentral, where everyone is always learning! LOL! Thanks for cleaning up the dirty work Ray :D Just trying to help out as much as I can.

On the other hand- are they really that innacurate!? The Salinity 36 is all the way at 1.027 SG!? Do I really change it to be that high???

[SumthinFishy]

geez louize...just spent fifteen minutes editing my reply and it's gone. basically just a lot of ranting about the lfs treating me like i'm an idiot and trying to sell me green damsels when i told them i was doing a fishless cycle. oh yeah, and www.customaquatic.com is across the freeway so they can have any orders waiting on their dock so i can pick up instead of paying for shipping. (but they still won't let me pick out my stuff.)
still have to take back the fluval, but i always feel bad returning stuff (worked at a return desk in a retail store long ago) so i have to really make myself do it. maybe this weekend.
think i'm going to go with the powerheads, they sound very simple to use and pretty inexpensive, too. as far as heat, keeping the temp stable can be controlled by varying the temp from the heater (and I'll have that down long before any fish or other sensitive animals are living in there).
one more thing, i've read that pvc pipe should be placed under the rock you are using so that once it becomes live, there are no dead spots. what exactly defines a dead spot? if that means an area that does not become live, i was thinking that as long as there is enough live rock in there (planning on adding 45 or 90 lbs), the rock is doing it's filtration. on the other hand, if a dead spot is an area where there is life that does not get the nutrients it needs, will the (good) bacteria from my other rockspread to these dead spots and cause it to become all gross and foul my tank? if either of you can clarify, cause i really wanna do this right with as little troubles cause my simple mistakes as possible. oh, a second one more thing (ha ha ha), sand is better than crushed coral for my sand bed if that's what i'm using for filtration, right?
thanks so much you guys for helping out with a newbie like me!!!

[Ray Pollett]

Sumthinfishy,

"one more thing, i've read that pvc pipe should be placed under the rock you are using so that once it becomes live, there are no dead spots. what exactly defines a dead spot? if that means an area that does not become live, i was thinking that as long as there is enough live rock in there (planning on adding 45 or 90 lbs), the rock is doing it's filtration. on the other hand, if a dead spot is an area where there is life that does not get the nutrients it needs, will the (good) bacteria from my other rockspread to these dead spots and cause it to become all gross and foul my tank? if either of you can clarify, cause i really wanna do this right with as little troubles cause my simple mistakes as possible. "

That is wrong. Do not worry about it. The dead spots was talked about years ago and is still carried on. I put the rock on the bare bottom and pour the sand in around it. You then stack you LR on top of the burried rock. This way if you get something that digs the rock work will not come crashing down. If you want we can go into the old dead spot fears, but why bother?

"oh, a second one more thing (ha ha ha), sand is better than crushed coral for my sand bed if that's what i'm using for filtration, right?"

Yes a sand bed is much better according to most people today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring
:p

Use any Play Sand from Lowe's or Home Depot.

Ray

[SumthinFishy]

Hey guys,
Another stupid question...I seem full of them lately!!! :)
How does a skimmer attach to a tank? I keep reading about how they attach to your sump, but since I don't plan to use a sump, can it just attach to the top of the tank? Also, any recommendations on brands to look for or steer clear of? How many gph should I look for?

:confused: ,
Daleen

[Ray Pollett]

Originally posted by SumthinFishy
Hey guys,
Another stupid question...I seem full of them lately!!! :)
How does a skimmer attach to a tank? I keep reading about how they attach to your sump, but since I don't plan to use a sump, can it just attach to the top of the tank? Also, any recommendations on brands to look for or steer clear of? How many gph should I look for?

:confused: ,
Daleen

Skimmers are designed either to be used with a sump or differently to be hang on the back(HOB) skimmers. I do not use sumps so I can talk about the HOB ones. They are not usually rated as GPH. The are usually rated for a tank size range ( like 60-90 gallon tank).

The brands I see recomended the most for HOB skimmers are Remora, and CPR. I've used both and prefer the Remora line.

The other skimmer that may be one to consider is the Prizim line. Only consider it in my opinion if water tempature being too high is an issue and you do not have a chiller. It has the water pump out side the tank while the other two have the water pump in the tank. Personally I find the Prizim a pain in the rear and only consider them if heat is an issue.

Ray

[SumthinFishy]

Thanks Ray,
This whole saltwater thing is getting expensive, and I don't even have any fish yet!!!!
I am so excited about my new tank, and have to go out today and get some more water (10 gal a trip X 60 gal tank = slow moving).
I really appreciate all of your and everyone else around here's help. I probably would be spending WAY more money had I let the lfs guide me here!

:cool:
Daleen