View Full Version : Fish Dying, Help!
dcallen
06-28-2003, 3:17 PM
I will try to make this as brief as possible. I found my German Red Peacock dead this afternoon, he had stopped eating a few days prior and I could tell that something was wrong by the way he as acting. Now it seems that the majority of my other fish are all congregating in one spot at the back of the tank behind a big rock and they are not swimming much, some are breathing hard as well, just as the German Red did. I have been doing 30% water changes every week and my water quality has been good.
pH=8.0
ammonia=0
nitrites=0
nitrate=20 ppm
Also the fish show no outward signs of disease, the only thing I have observed is the heavy breathing. Can someone please offer some advice? This is very discouraging as I have worked very hard to be sure everything has been done right. I have been feeding them New Life Spectrum pellets from day one, I feed them twice daily. Have I been feeding them too much? Should I stop feeding for a couple of days and see what happens?
I fear more deaths are coming soon if I don't get this figured out.
Thanks...
70 gallon tank
Filtration:
Eheim 2213 Cannister
Emperor 400 HOB
I really don't think its the food and your filtration and water changing regiment is excellent. Outside of some bacteria or a chemical agent in the water the only thing I can think of is your pH is a little high for the fish you mentioned. Could any cleaning agent (windex etc.) have gotten in the tank or did you not dechlorinate after a water change?
Could it also due to disease? I read something about fish disease also can cause loss of appetite, stay on the bottom or in hiding most of the time, and heavy breathing. I have had a severum died that way and found out that she died of Ich, (severe Ich) without showing symptoms.
Ich without symptoms, thats weird.
Disease can cause loss of appetite though. Did you check wetman's site?
Originally posted by scott
Ich without symptoms, thats weird.
Disease can cause loss of appetite though. Did you check wetman's site?
Yeah...I thought so too, weird, because after that fish died...all my fish got the Ich symptoms.
And the fish that died...also got loss of appetite, stayed on the bottom of the tank, and heavy breathing.
I wouldn’t worry about the pH, 8 is perfect for Malawians.
Perhaps you could down your nitrates a bit to 10 or even less, by performing 1 or 2 extra water changes
Those nitrate levels, are they prior to a water change or just after? 20 ppm isn’t really toxic for a short period of time but when these readings are just after a 30% water change, it will be become toxic within a couple of days when it reaches 40 or 50.
Did you use any glue or silicone (for the rocks) or paint (for the background) in your tank?
Or has somebody doing some plumbing around the house like changing or adding water pipes or something.
Jimmy
dcallen
06-29-2003, 5:09 PM
Thanks guys for all the replies.
Update:
My Tangerine Tiger is now dead, and the Taiwan Reef looks like he may be next. The Taiwan Reef now has a white spot on his side that he didn't have yesterday. The Tangerine Tiger looked like he had something coming out of one of his gills, perhaps a worm of some kind. All the other fish are still staying at the bottom in the same spot as I mentioned before, several of the fish still look healthy at the moment. I fear that my entire population may be wiped out before all is said and done. I guess it's not meant for me to keep fish, I have tried so hard to do everything right and yet I still don't seem to have much success. It amazes me that so many people can keep fish alive for years and I can't keep them alive for more than a few months at best.
I have been dechlorinating with Amquel at every water change.
Jimmy:
I haven't used any silicones or glue in the tank at all, and no plumbing has been done. I just checked the nitrate level and it looks like it's gone up to around 30 ppm. I'm going to do another water change and see if I can drop it. What is the best way to get those nitrate levels down to 10 ppm or less? Thanks again for all the help.
I’m sorry to hear that your fish is dying on you.
It really sounds like you’re having some kind of disease in your tank.
I’m sorry I can’t give you any advise on this as I’m not really familiar with diseases. I hope someone else is, and will be able to give you the right advises, pretty soon hopefully.
As for the nitrates;
The main reason why we have to change our tank water, is to get rid of the nitrates.
It seems that this is the only way to keep them down. If 30 ppm is the reading 3 days after you changed 30%, you want to consider a 50% every week. For as far as I know there isn’t any filter-media which would take care of the nitrates. Usually plants (lots of them) would do the job for a great deal as they feed on them.
But I guess like myself, you don’t have many plants in your tank.
I really wish you good luck, don’t give up
Jimmy
tnlguinn
06-29-2003, 7:46 PM
sounds like parasites. sorry to here this. have you added any new fish lately?
dcallen
06-29-2003, 8:41 PM
Thanks guys.
The last fish I added was 3 weeks ago, maybe a little more. I did another water change and the nitrates are like 20 ppm or so.
I don't have any plants in my tank to help with the nitrates. My temp. in the tank looks like it's around 80 degrees. Is this too hot for the Malawians? Also I've been told by a LFS not to do 50% water changes per week, as the fish can be sensitive to larger water changes, is this true?
Thanks again...
scholar
06-29-2003, 9:14 PM
80F is Ok. There is some agent bacteria or otherwise that is causing the problem.
I am told by my LFS which is the best in town that 30-40% water change every three days is ok. I highly recommend water changes 30% every three days. Be asue wnatever itis, it is in the water. Until you figure out what itis. the water change is yourlife line. 30% minimum every three days. I consider your situation as emergency as you may loose them all. So 30% water chang every three days is very appropriate.
Good luck,
If you have another tank, you may wish to remove the fish without symptoms.
One time my GT was about to die on me, got cloudy eyes and all. I put couple of penicillin right on top of him...he was himself again the next day...swimming around and chasing fish.
My other fish got attacked so badly...that he started to have cotton patch on him. I put in some fungal infections capsules. Now that fish is so healthy...and the skin grew back.
If you believe that it is parasite, and all the water change does nothing...really should start thinking about some med for the fish. The best brand fish med is Aquatronics. Their penicilin is always out of stock.
There are many website that gives you tips and fish disease symptoms. You might wanna look into that. That's who I learned to cure my fish.
Originally posted by dcallen
Also I've been told by a LFS not to do 50% water changes per week, as the fish can be sensitive to larger water changes, is this true?
Not really.
Just keep in mind that water from Lake Malawi is on average ten times more pure than our tap water.(with the exception of some industrial areas)
In Lake Malawi they have found 10 bacteria in 1 mg of water whereas in tap water a hundred on average.
In our tanks this will increase to a thousand or even more.
I think there is no such thing as to much "pure water" in our tanks.
I know of some hobbyists have made a system which continuously adds tap water to their tanks with no problems at all. So I’m pretty sure a 50 or even a 60% water change won’t harm your fish.
Jimmy
dcallen
06-30-2003, 12:17 PM
Hi,
Well I haven't had anymore fish deaths yet, and they did eat this morning, but then after they ate they went back to the same place behind a big rock and pretty much stayed there. I did another water change yesterday to help things along, and I did add some medication to the tank, although I can't remember the name it does treat several different diseases so I thought I would give it a try and see what happens. I also added a power head for flow. I plan on doing another water change in a few days. As far as nitrates go, is there any way to lower them besides doing water changes?
I was also told that salt could help as well so I'm going to add some tonight and see.
Thanks for everyones help...
Your pH is fine, for some reason I read German Ram instead of German Red. If there is a white spot and a worm you definately need to medicate. I am no disease expert but my feeling is you need a specific drug for parasites, I don't think salt does much of anything.
As far a lowering nitrates I have read about deep sand beds growing nitrate consuming bacteria in reef tanks but as far as I know it does not apply to fresh water (you might get more info in the reef keeping forum?). I think just good ole fashioned water changes are the way to go. Check out WetmanNY's site www.skepticalaquarist.com for some specifics on disease and parasites. It's a great website in general too. HTH.
Eric86
06-30-2003, 7:16 PM
Sounds exactly like what happens weekly at my friend's house... dechlorinator poisoning is what that sounds like... either that or not using dechlorinator.. Maybe hard to breathe if you have little to no water disturbences...
scholar
07-01-2003, 1:50 AM
nitrates less than 60 ppm can not cause any damage. So lowering nitrates further woul d not do anything.
jimbo
07-01-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by scholar
nitrates less than 60 ppm can not cause any damage. So lowering nitrates further woul d not do anything.
ABSOLUTELY WRONG INFO.
Why would you let it come that far in the first place
Just give me one good reason.
It will never come that far unless you don't perform regular partial water changes or your tank is heavily overstocked, either way something is seriously wrong.
Just try to keep your fish in your own tank alive for a couple of weeks or even days with nitrates at 60 ppm.
When the nitrate is 60 ppm, it will become toxic(nitrite again) within 24 hours so you'll be having a hard time to keep it on 60.
Jimmy
scott
07-01-2003, 12:42 PM
I don't know the science behind it but doesn't temp and pH have an effect on toxicity of nitrate?
I always heard to keep nitrate below 20 as a rule of thumb. But I guess there are lots of rules of thumb that don't work, inch fish/gallon for instance.
dcallen
07-01-2003, 2:29 PM
It seems like it's going to be very hard for me to keep the nitrates below 20 ppm. The nitrates in my system seem to want to hover at around 20 ppm and not go down much, so that may be the best I can do. It would be really nice to get them down to 10 ppm but I'm not sure that's going to happen based on what's happened in the past.
Is there anything else that creates nitrates? I thought it was an output of nitrites which are an output of ammonia which are an output of waste, therefore if you control the waste through trickledown eventually you would control the nitrates. I would suggest maybe a fast of two days with water changes and then back off on the feeding, we all overfeed. Not only the left over food decaying creates ammonia but the more they eat the more they gotta go!
There could be nitrates in your tap water already.
As long there are no nitrites in your tank, there’s nothing to worry about
Nitrate NO3 will become toxic again when it releases oxygen. NO3 minus O makes NO2
This will happen (among other things) when there’s a shortage of oxygen in the water.
It’s not really a problem when the nitrates are like 10, 20 or even 30 ppm
The bacteria in your tank are supposed to handle that.
But try to imagine what would happen if 60 or 100 ppm nitrates releases oxygen.
You would have a sudden increase of nitrites on your hand and then the spiral starts.
From nitrite to nitrate, to nitrite, to nitrate again and so on, and so on.
I am aware of the fact that fish can handle very high concentrates of nitrate, perhaps even up to 400 ppm for a short period of time but if something goes wrong…..
Jimmy
Why would it release the oxygen, what is the stimulus? Other than shortage of oxygen (water to warm, other reasons?)
What would cause a shortage of oxygen in the tank? Overstocking? Thanks for the info jimbo.
A combination of poor aeration and high temperatures will result in a shortage of oxygen.
But also overstocking your tank will help.
I’m not sure on how or what triggers nitrate to release oxygen.
But I promise you to post it when I have found it back in one of my books.
Cloud-9
07-01-2003, 4:58 PM
To me, it sounds like you have parasites. Based on the fact that the fish are hiding and from your observations. I do not think the problem will go away on its own though.
If you cut back on the feeding, then the nitrates will go down. Unless you already have them in your tap water to begin with. Check carefully because you might have a dead fish in the tank.
There are some parasites that you can cure with salt and slightly elevated temperatures. There is also a correct procedure for adding salt to the tank. You also have to know exactly how much water is in your tank. Some fish cannot tolerate a lot of salt. It's been a long time, but I think first you add one teaspoon per gallon for the first day. Elevate the temperature to 80F. The next day, add another teaspoon. And if there are no problems, add another teaspoon the third day. The problem, ofcourse, is that your fish might go downhill by then. And some parasites cannot be cured this way. Your best bet is to use a wide-spectrum anti-parasitic that is powerful enough for bigger parasites like fluke, anchor worms, and leeches.
My choice would be something like Paragon.
By the way, I was pulling for the Mavericks.
dcallen
07-02-2003, 12:23 AM
Pulling for the Mavericks eh' Cloud? I like them too but not as much as the Spurs, they have been my team for many years.
Update:
Ok, I added the power head for flow which seems to have helped and I also added about 7 tablespoons of salt to the tank yesterday and man what a difference 24 hours made. The fish are eating well and swimming at the front of the tank and not hiding nearly as much as they were, and they are breathing normally. It seems like the meds, salt, and power head have helped quite a bit. I also added some meds from Aquatronics I have treated twice now, the instructions call for one more treatment, would this be a good idea or should I hold off? The fish are noticeably better now and I don't want to over medicate the tank.
Also, how long should I wait before adding a couple of fish?
Thanks so much for helping me out during a difficult time.
DavidT
07-02-2003, 7:38 AM
Originally posted by jimbo
ABSOLUTELY WRONG INFO.
Why would you let it come that far in the first place
Just give me one good reason.
It will never come that far unless you don't perform regular partial water changes or your tank is heavily overstocked, either way something is seriously wrong.
Just try to keep your fish in your own tank alive for a couple of weeks or even days with nitrates at 60 ppm.
When the nitrate is 60 ppm, it will become toxic(nitrite again) within 24 hours so you'll be having a hard time to keep it on 60.
Jimmy
Nitrates at 20ppm are not bad at all. Nitrates have to go over 100ppm for a sustained period of time before you will get any problems. AFAIK there is no evidence that nitrates below this level causes problems. But if you have the evidence I would very much like to see it.
Nitrate turning into nitrite! 60ppm of nitrate causing death within days! Wheres the evidence for this? I've never heard of this in over 20 years of keeping fish.
David
Sorry, I guess you’re right.
This should be; When the nitrate is 60 ppm, and there’s a shortage of oxygen, it will become toxic (nitrite again)
There are bacteria (most of them) that need oxygen. When there’s a shortage in the water, they will take it from the nitrates and this way you’ll be left with nitrite again.
With 20 or 30 ppm the same happens only the tragedy (concentration nitrites) won’t be that big as most bacteria will not be able to take oxygen from the nitrates (cause there aren’t enough) and die. Besides poor surface-water movement and poor filtration, overfeeding and overstocking is the biggest culprit. More bacteria are needed, which use more oxygen. Still producing nitrites they take oxygen from the nitrates which will give even more nitrites. I don’t have any evidence, but I have read some posts in the past from hobbyists who had high nitrites in their tank but practical no nitrates. Tanks which were running for more than a year. That’s when I start my search and found several articles concerning this topic in books and on the Internet.
Just google for nitrates/nitrites and I think you will find some articles in the English language.
Jimmy
I would medicate for as long as the direction on the bottle say. Kinda like if you had an infection but the doc gives you medicine and you feel better but you are supposed to take the prescription till it runs out.
I wouldn't add fish for at least a month.
julesK
07-03-2003, 6:47 PM
sounds like possible gill flukes..
Keith
Where are you in GA jules?
Cloud-9
07-04-2003, 1:26 PM
Well, it looks like the Spurs just might get the services of Jason Kidd next year. I don't know whether to be glad or sad about that. I'm happy Jason might be leaving the east. I want the Celtics to do well, but I am also envious because some teams just have a knack for getting the player they need. Too bad for us in Greenland, our coach seemed to have decided not to give Vin Baker a chance. Too bad. Vin is one of the best low post players in the game.
Anyway, do you have a veterinary teaching college nearby? Perhaps they can help you with your fish.