Feeling Confused - pH, KH issues

[nanahachi]

Upon discovering that I could add baking soda to my tank to raise my KH (more quickly as opposed to gradually), last night I put just over 1 tsp of it into my 20 g long. Also, yesterday I changed the ingredients in my Hagen CO2 to a DIY mix (1 cup sugar, 1/4 tsp yeast, 1/2 tsp baking soda)

Today, the Hagen is putting out 1 bubble every 4 secs (my first batch never did better than 1/30 secs, with the Hagen pack). My KH was 3 dKH, but I added another 1/2 tsp of baking soda, and 30 mins later it was 4dkh. However, my pH was 7.3 with lights on and CO2 going. So I added some acid buffer to knock down the pH.

Does that mean I just knocked down the hardness as well?

Tomorrow I will go to the LFS to get some crushed coral, but for night now, I still feel confused. I thought that I understood this stuff, but right now, I'm not so sure.

I can post my levels later tonight as an update.

any info you guys can provide would help. even if it is only to ease my mind.

thanks!

[Aquafreak]

What is the KH coming out of your tap water? If it's 3 I'd leave it, if not then add some crushed coral or baking soda as you're already doing. Get the KH up to 4 and all will be fine.

Never lower pH with anything other than CO2, otherwise you'll have a hard time reading the true value of your CO2, also with commercial pH adjusting products you will add in other things that you might not want nor notice in the process eg. phosphate. Of course you want P in your planted tank, but you want adjusted and accurate dosage, you'd want to know exactly how much you put in, how much is in the water and how much the plants are using up.

The higher the KH the more CO2 you'll need to lower the pH, and less for lower KH values. Use baking soda to raise your KH to 4, the baking soda will slightly increase your pH along with the KH so use none other than CO2 to lower your pH to your desired range, 6.6-6.8 would be a good targets.

Lastly aerate your tap water overnight in a barrel or some water container before you test the KH and pH, only then will your test kits give you the true values of your tap water.

HTH

[nanahachi]

that helped A LOT!
thanks Aquafreak. however, I guess I need clarity on the CO2 issue. I am using the Hagen CO2 system, which is basically just yeast and sugar in a container, and includes a nifty little diffuser. I don't know how to adjust my CO2, as you said.

I understand what you mean about using Seachem Acid Buffer to lower the pH, that it might include other substances. I'll have to look into that.

My levels, as of a few mins ago (10:04pm pst)
pH = 7.2
KH = 3

so if i add Baking soda, that will raise both the pH and KH...but do I really want pH that high? i was under the impression that I don't.

so that's where i feel stuck. I know KH and pH move in the same direction, so how can I lower my pH while raising my KH??:confused:

however, for the first time, my plants are pearling! its such a sight to behold. I spent 10 mins just watching one plant leaf, seeing the tiny bubble come right out of the leaf, form bigger bubbles, then bigger bubbles, the float up to the top...:D

now I just need to scrape that **** brown algae (diatoms?) off of my anubias leaves...

[Aquafreak]

With a DIY CO2 its very hard if not impossible to control the level of CO2 producing from the yeast/sugar mix, you could add an extra bottle to the tank, but that might be too much for a small tank. Try altering your DIY recipe to get the best amount of CO2 out of a single bottle. There's a few places online that you might find containing different recipes etc. A KH of 3 is perfectly fine for CO2 IMO, anything under that I'd worry about crashing pH, but nonetheless 3 is quite alright, I wouldn't worry nor adjust it, the more things you put into your tank, the more trouble your gonna get.

So for now, lay off the pH adjusting products, keep checking your KH and pH levels, modify your CO2 to achieve 6.6-6.8 pH, once you find a routine that gives you correct pH and KH, stick with it and keep it up, that's all there is to it, once you got KH and pH nailed down to a routine, things should be smooth, alot of times people mess with their pH with commercial products and then get inaccurate CO2 readings, it leads them down a wrong path along with tons of algae issues. In a planted tank, most important is light and constant supply of an appropriate amount of CO2.

Thumbs up on the pearling! Keep up the good work.

HTH

[djlen]

If you have a HOB(hang on back filter) that has an adjustable flow rate you can adjust the amount of gas-off with that. Add another CO2 unit to the tank. As the CO2 produced lessens during the week, you decrease the flow on the filter in order to lessen the gas-off and hold the pH at the desired level. You are pushing 5.6 ppm CO2 which is too low. 6.7 is better.
Len

[anonapersona]

The Hagen diffuser has 3 levels at which the input line may be attached.

If you need to have less Co2 in the water, move the line to the middle or upper location, the travel time/contact time/ total diffusion will be less.

Far easier to contraol this than most other things.

[anonapersona]

Originally posted by nanahachi
now I just need to scrape that **** brown algae (diatoms?) off of my anubias leaves...

Get some Malaysina Trumpet Snails (MTS). Your local pet store may have a tank that has many little ice cream cone shaped snails. NOT football shaped snails -- pond snails -- bad! The MTS will act like aquatic earthworms, cleaning dead plant material, mulm and brown diatoms.

[nanahachi]

thanks anonpersona. right now, I have the hagen's airline at the bottom of the diffuser, the one for 20g tanks, thus allowing the bubbles to stay in the diffuser for the longest amount of time.

I just took my levels:
pH = 7.2
KH = 4 dKH

my tap water that I left in a bucket overnight
pH >7.4
KH = 1

Len, thanks for the HOB info. I can try that. I will try to get an additional DIY CO2 bottle going. I still have my DIY jello bottle, but dont have a diffuser to stick it into, and the results were mediocre b/c i had continual problems with water in the airline. I could order another Hagen from Big Als i guess...but it wont arrive until late next week.

I guess the fish and shrimp are ok with pH of 7.2 but I suppose I would really like it to be lower than neutral.

thanks for the help, please keep it coming. :)

[750t]

I also have the problem of getting the co2 level I want with the hagen. My ph out of the tap is 7.6 and kh of 5. After abandining the hagen yeast and using my own. I did get the ph down to 6.8 but this only happened once, now I cant get it to go below 7.0. Iam using that bread yeast,Im gonna try some wine yeast soon. When mixing up yor water sugar and yeast what does the baking soda do ? Im stiill doing battle with algea.

[djlen]

Adding baking soda buffers soft water in the CO2 mixture and aids in it's production. If you have relatively hard water it's not necessary to use baking soda.

nana, what's your kH in the tank?
Len

[anonapersona]

I have tap water of about 9 degrees KH and 8.2 pH. I've done experiments with the Hagen units in different tanks.

Using 1/4 teaspoon wine yeast and 1/4 teaspoon "yeast nutrient" the mix lasted one week. Using bread yeast and 1/2 teaspoon baking soda the mix lasted 2 weeks. Using bread yeast and 1 teaspoon baking soda the mix lasted 2 to 3+ weeks. Adding 1/2 teaspoon more to the bread yeast that had only 1/2 teaspoon baking soda after it had begun to run down made it fizz madly but the boost only lasted one day or so, did not allow it to catch up to the other unit that started the same day with 1 teaspoon baking soda. Wine yeast with baking soda never got going.

Unfortunately, I've gotten lax about recording this data (again), but for the tags I leave on the bottles with mixture details and start dates.

My theory so far is that bread yeast likes baking soda and basic water and that wine yeast prefers acid water.

I don't know why the mix sems to last longer in the 10 gallon than in the 20 gallon. The same mix started the same day lasts longer in the 10 G. That tank has a much shorter line on it, barely enough to get the bottle up and unscrewed easily. Part of the difference could be line leakage.