View Full Version : dither/target fish - other cichlids?
sandal
07-17-2003, 6:16 PM
I have a pair of convicts and a pleco in a 65 gallon tank.
My experience with cichlids generally is that they lose some of their "interesting behaviour" when there are no other fish to argue with or protect their fry from.
Would it be a good idea to add another pair of cichlids (like jewels, firemouths etc.) to serve as target fish?
Any suggestions/comments appreciated
-sandal.
andruboz
07-17-2003, 6:23 PM
'interesting behaior' might include total fish anihilation.[sp?]
i would have some kind of divider handy incase the adding of other cichlids doesnt work out.
somebody told me giant danios were good dithers. but i made the mistake of putting them in a tank that didnt need dithers.
those hyperactive little speed freaks were irritating everybody.
one got ate, two got moved and the last one was too hard to catch but has settled down some now that his friends are gone.
Your best bet for non-cichlid dithers are Tetras. Columbian or Congo Tetras, specifically. Or you could always go with Silver Dollars, but some get to be over 8" in size, and a standard 65 is not a long enough tank for a school of such fish.
As for cichlid dithers, it's not a good idea with Convicts. Actually, many people use Convicts as dithers in large Central American cichlid tanks.
sandal
07-18-2003, 9:52 AM
What if I add another pair of convicts?
dbcb314
07-18-2003, 11:44 AM
adding anything to a breeding pair of convicts is asking for death
Harry Tolen
07-18-2003, 12:08 PM
A couple of points:
The phrases "dither fish" and "target fish" tend to be used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous, but they are not.
Dither fish ares those whose visibility and activity gives other, more nervous fish reassurance that it is safe to be out and about. A school of cardinal tetras, for example, can act as dither fish for dwarf cichlids that would otherwise spend all their time hiding under rocks, leaves, and plants.
Target fish, on the other hand, are specifically intended to serve as a focus for territoriality-based aggression. They need to be durable and/or fast. It is also preferable that they be non-territorial in nature, or you are just exacerbating the problem that you are trying to correct.
That is why cichlids are never good as target fish for other cichlids. They just tend to create even more battles, with one side or the other being the eventual loser.
Your 65 gallon tank (I'm assuming the standard 65 shape, which is 36" x 18" x 24") really won't have enough room for the traditional types of target fish (i.e. giant danios or silver dollars). The convicts' territory will encompass the entire tank, and since the whole secret to being a long-lived target fish is to move out of the territory of the cichlid in question, the targets will suffer from not being able to run far enough away.
Your pleco already serves as one sort of target fish, however. In that vein, you might consider adding a synodontis catfish to the mix as well. S. ocellifer is pretty easily available, doesn't get too large, and is more active than a pleco. Synodontis cats are also able to take care of themselves, and should be able to survive even in the face of some "attention" from your convicts.
scott
07-18-2003, 12:26 PM
In my case Harry (sorry for the hijack) I am breeding festae in a 150 and it has been recommended for a convict to be a target fish. I thought the recommendation made sense as the convict will claim territory and give the male something to fight with to keep him away from the female (as he would easily kill a giant danio or silver dollar). What are your opinions on this? I am prepared to replace the convict.
dbcb314
07-18-2003, 1:31 PM
story time...
i once tried to use a target fish for a small tank. lets just say it didnt work too well...
Drake Titan
07-18-2003, 1:59 PM
I have 4 giant danio's in my 55g with a JD.....the JD doesn't even acknowledge them....the GD's swim in the middle upper layers...the JD chills at the bottom.....course this is the new tank, and could easily change when the JD is full grown!
dave76
07-18-2003, 2:52 PM
I have 4 zebra striped danios as targets in my tank and my GT and Con barely pay any attention to them at all. They even swim at the bottom at times and they dont even charge them or anything :confused: .
I think what you guys have mentioned is the other reason for using convicts for targets as the danios etc. don't claim territory. If you need target fish, not dither fish, there is a difference as Harry mentioned. It sounds like Drake, especially, has dithers, there would be no need for a target in a tank with only one cichlid.
Harry Tolen
07-18-2003, 3:56 PM
scott: I've never kept festae, but it would seem to me that, given their larger size, they would eventually just kill the convict. Perhaps the generous dimensions of your tank would give the convict room to run, but as another cichlid it would be disinclined to take that option and that's where the mayhem would be likely to begin.
Here are a few other thoughts as to what might work in your tank:
01. A school of 5 good-sized silver dollars might do well. Your tank gives them enough room to run. I keep silver dollars in with all of my large cichlids, and have yet to lose one to cichlid predation.
02. Or, you could protect your convict with a tank divider. Drawback: somewhat unsightly.
03. Or, you could try putting a mirror at the far end of the tank.
04. Or, a large tank adjacent with another pair of something else in there.
05. Or, a few large synodontis (decorus comes to mind). Just give them some lengths of pipe to retreat to, and they would be fine.
In general, however, I will just say that the larger the tank, the more things are likely to work out without any aggression at all. My 400 has two breeding pairs of Vieja synspila, a large Amphilophus citrinellum, four adult pacus, two large Synodontis angelicus, one Distichodus sexfasciatus, a Jack Dempsey, a marbled sailfin pleco, and a Hypselacara temporalis, and although everyone jockeys for position, there are never any serious fights.
That synodontis looks pretty cool, now to only find one! I currently have 3 silver dollars in the tank and some giant danios. I am waiting to see how this turns out before trying the convict. Thanks for the tips, I think I will add some silver dollars and try and find a synodontis, gives me a cleaner fish too. Thanks for the tips.
Harry Tolen
07-18-2003, 6:31 PM
I mentioned S. decorus in particular because it is one of the largest, and generally inexpensive (well, relatively speaking) when found. S. angelicus also gets pretty large, but is a bit more pricey.
But I wouldn't say for sure that other, smaller synodontis wouldn't work. For example, I have some S. ocellifer in a tank with a single V. synspila, and they seem to be doing OK despite the fact that they're smaller (about 6" overall).
Other synodontis that you could look at that might work would be S eupterus , S. ornatipinnis , and S. camelopardalis . I have a couple of others that I really like, too, but am unable to definitively identify (as well as S. multifasciatus and S. petriicola in my Tanganyikan tanks).
If you can't tell, I really like synodontis. However, any more of this talk and I'll have to toss this thread over to catfish, which would really confuse everyone unless they read all the way to the end.
Harry Tolen
07-18-2003, 6:36 PM
I mentioned S. decorus in particular because it is one of the largest, and generally inexpensive (well, relatively speaking) when found. S. angelicus also gets pretty large, but is a bit more pricey.
But I wouldn't say for sure that other, smaller synodontis wouldn't work. For example, I have some S. ocellifer in a tank with a single V. synspila, and they seem to be doing OK despite the fact that they're smaller (about 6" overall).
Other synodontis that you could look at that might work would be S eupterus , S. ornatipinnis , and S. camelopardalis . I have a couple of others that I really like, too, but am unable to definitively identify (as well as S. multifasciatus and S. petriicola in my Tanganyikan tanks).
If you can't tell, I really like synodontis. However, any more of this talk and I'll have to toss this thread over to catfish, which would really confuse everyone unless they read all the way to the end.
Thanks Harry I'll look in to it. I will do some looking on Planet Catfish too. Thanks again.
I found some s. eupterus. Would you recommend say, three of these (feel free to insert your own number), or hold out for a larger fish. If I build a cave I am thinking PVC, any suggestions on disguise? Sorry for the catfish questions, I'll go to another forum if you want.
Harry Tolen
07-19-2003, 10:00 PM
I really like S. eupterus, and with three for the festae to divide their attentions among, they will probably do fine as long as they are decent sized to begin with. For hiding places, I always use the ceramic "log" sections with the hole in the middle, but sufficiently large PVC pipe (perhaps with side holes drilled for better ventilation) would probably be OK too. Bury it in rocks if you can, both to hold it in place and to disguise it. Granite or basalt, with the more angular edges, work better for this than river rock.
Another synodontis to consider might be S. schoutedeni. I mention that just in case the store you went to has those, too.
scott
07-19-2003, 10:09 PM
Okay, I got the tank set up coming together in my head. Luckily in Georgia most field rock is granite or something similar. Can I go with different species of synodontis? I heard they fight with conspecifics. Oh, and the festae are only about two inches so I have some time to figure out what I am doing with targets. Thanks for all of the tips, this is really helping me alot, I am really getting in to this synodontis idea.
Harry Tolen
07-20-2003, 11:27 AM
I have never had problems with conspecific aggression amongst my synodontis. On the other hand, I also have mixed species in several tanks and that isn't a problem, either.
The size of your tank will allow them plenty of room to work things out (both between each other and with the cichlids as well). Bigger is better!
scott
07-23-2003, 10:19 PM
I found a S decorus today and snatched him up. Sweet fish! Thanks for the tip Harry. I was reading that synodontis are more comfortable and you will see them more if they have a larger number. I certainly can't afford a large number of these guys but I could add two or three eupturus, what do you think?
Harry Tolen
07-24-2003, 8:54 PM
Scott: I think that would be an interesting combination, and should go fine with your festae. You almost can't go wrong with these fish, as can be seen from an interesting fact that just occurred to me. I started keeping synodontis with my cichlids about 14 years ago, and in all that time, have never lost even one! That is the only family of fish about which that is true. Given that in that time I have moved twice and revised my setups more than a few times, that seems to me to be a remarkable testament to how hardy these fish really are.
Great! And tommorrow is payday and everything. I'm going to pick up two tommorrow, hopefully they still have them. Thanks for all of your advice and I am relieved at your track record with synos and cichlids, those festae can get pretty boisterous!