Algae and Nutrient balance

[josh]

Hi,

I know that there is a type of shrimp called amano shrimp that do a great job of keeping algae under control. At the one place I know how to get them they are like $3 each. Then I saw Ghost shrimp at another store for $0.25 each, and I am wondering, do they eat algae too? Are ghost shrimp a solution to algae control?

-josh

[Sum-X]

I haven't heard that ghost shrimp eat algae... They're primarilly used to feed fish... They are basically scavengers and will pick up anything on the bottom they can find... I don't think they eat algae though. ;)

[famman]

Ghost shrimp will eat algae, but it's not their primary or favorite food. Besides which, you'd need 50 of them, so no they are not really a solution to algae control.
If you keep good water and are carefull during water changes, otos are the best for a smallish tank.
good luck
:)

[MMX]

Originally posted by famman
Ghost shrimp will eat algae, but it's not their primary or favorite food. :)

Exactly !

Ghost shrimps will eat green thread algae (when there are no fish food/leftover fish food in the tank).
:cool:

[fishhead]

I have both in my tank, mostly because they are fun to watch. Ghost Shrimp can eat some sorts of algae, though they seem to only do it if there is not much else to eat. Amano Shrimp do a better job, though they really do not eat very much algae compared to a fish like an Oto, a Rosy Barb, or an American Flag Fish. They seem kind of expensive (for a shrimp), and can be pretty fragile compared to Ghost Shrimp. Out of the four I recently added, only had two made it, though there was an unfortunate CO2 spike the night they were introduced. They really do not like low Ph. That said, they look cooler than Ghost Shrimp to me, and it is great to see them picking away at bits of algae.

[Richer]

Amano shrimp (C. japonica) is the shrimp of choice when it comes to all purpose algae control. However, its hard to say whether or not the shrimp will do well in a fish tank... given a chance a fish (omnivores and carnivores) will try to eat the shrimp. Try a few ghost shrimp first, and if they survive, get your amanos. Shrimp are pretty much at the bottom of the food chain.

HTH
-Richer

[josh]

Wow!

thanks for the quick responses. I think I will try a few of the ghost shrimp to see how they do in my aquarium! I'll definately go for something else for algae control though. I've been hearing a lot about SAE lately. How much do they usually sell for in a pet store?

-Josh

[125gJoe]

I've never seen Amano's sold in this area - but that's not surprising..

[famman]

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/sae.htm

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/Fishpics/sae2.jpg

Don't SAEs get to be a half a foot long?

:)

[plantbrain]

I would not keep a full grown SAE in less than a 30 gallon.
Ghost shrimp...........well I put them to the test.
They did not fair well at all.
They are neat etc, but the Amano shrimps earn their keep if you have enough. Amano shrimps will live/last longer than ghost shrimps also.

Ask the LFS for a bulk price rather than buying one or two at a time.
I was able to get 50 shrimps on special from the wholesaler for about 40$ with some free donated plants to the LFS and I picked up the whole bag as thwey got their fish shrimpment in as so they did not even have to count or bag them up. At worse, a 1.50 would be the max price they might charge.
I've pullled this tatict: "LFS so and so said they'd let me have a bag of 50 for 45$ if I pick them up and they don't dump in the tank. Will you match that price?" Or you can also say, I'm going to see what price so and so can offer me. that seems a bit high.
If they buy 100 at a time, the price is pretty good for the dealers.
Split the cost with local friends and divy them up.

I've ran across and number of shrimp algae eaters native to the USA, but no sources except myself going out and trying to net them.
Some are too small, they get eaten by most fish. Some don't like warm water etc.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Sum-X]

Originally posted by famman
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/sae.htm

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/Fishpics/sae2.jpg

Don't SAEs get to be a half a foot long?

:)

Thats not a SAE! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[AsahiToro]

I disagree. That is a SAE. It has the jagged line extending through the tail and also the barbels.

[GDominy]

That is indeed a true SAE. I have several of them

[RTR]

Agree, that is the real SAE. And yes, they do make 6". And they do get fat and lazy even before they get there. IMHO & IME, Amanos are are far superior algae eaters, but they do not eat BBA (SAEs will if hungry)- which thankfully I don't have.

[josh]

How would you guys rank the effectiveness of these fishes on algae eating, for all of us considering an algae control crew:

plecostamous (sp?)
cherry barbs
amano shrimp
siamese algae eater
otto's
black mollies

I have heard people telling stories of all of these fish eating algae very well. I am assuming the ones with the sucker mouths like the plecos and ottos are more limited to stuff on the glass and flat surfaces, and may not even eat the longer strands from those surfaces (like hair algae or staghorn algae)

What has been your experience with them?

-Josh

[inxs]

If you have a problem with algae , the main thing to do is to adjust your nutritional balance in the tank - that will cut the algae down more than anything you can put in there.

Next manual removal by hand and via an old toothbrush along with scraping the glass and any decorations that get too much buildup.

For light algae buildup:

Otos work good on diatoms (mainly brown coating)

Various Plecos work on the same as the otos , however they need a lot of bulk vegetable matter and can scrape the glass clean overnight at which point your planted tank becomes a saladbar.

Mollies and some other livebearers will activley eat green hair algae provided they are not fed.

Flagfish is pretty much like mollies.

SAEs, CAEs and flying foxes will keep leaves and decorations clean when YOUNG and not overly fed , however they do grow fast, fat and lazy and at that point show no interest in algae.

Snails will consume leftovers, waste and some algae - they will however multiply into billions if there is excess food (algae, waste or waste) and quickly become a nuicence.

Ghost shrimp which are cheap( about 10 cents each around here) , are sold as feeders, they act much like snails and will keep a tank clean of waste and leftovers - as far as eating algae they will eat about as much as say angelfish or tetras , in other words nibble at it on occasion when they are hungry but it is not a regular part of their diet. One other thing with the ghosts is that they are more tender than the amanos and will be an indicator as to when things go awry before you start losing the more expensive amanos.

Amanos do eat algae - however they do not eat the amounts they are often expected to consume in a problem tank.
If you want good algaecontrol provided by amanos you need about 2-3/gal.

[plantbrain]

The pleco's, namely the common ones or larger ones tend not to fair well since they will damage plants.
Some smaller types, the Bulldog pleco, , Clown pleco, the Butterfly, or the white spot Ancistrus(most Ancistrus generally are good or Pecklotia) are all pretty good.
But for algae over all, a large pack of amano's is difficult to beat and you can add any number to about any sized tank since each critter is a small algae eating unit.
Barbs are good for hair algae, mollies are okay for some algae, not a lot IMO,
Otto's are good for Diatoms and little else, SAE's are good for BBA and Oedogonium, it grows only on the leaf margins about 1/4"-1" long. I've seen them eat other algae but these are ones they seem to be effective agaist.

While having algae eaters is important, it is not the overiding critical factor. If you are slightly off in your routine, they may help sway the balance over to the plants. They will never hurt the balance. They will make a good balance even more stable.
But don't depend on them to make your plants grow. They cannot do that except through some waste products and then that generally does not amount to a great of plant nutrition unless the tank has very slow growing plants/non CO2 enriched etc.
If the tank has pretty bad algae, don't expect them to remove it all. You need to help that along.
Many folks seem to think algae eaters will solve all the algae issues. They do not.
Don't try one single method/nutrient etc to get ahead of algae and grow plants, try multiple approachs, like good nutrients for the plants, manual removal of algae, trim off the algae that's attached etc, clean filters, scrub glass, large regular water changes, herbivores in large numbers, etc. Repeat.

Take care of the CO2/Nutrients _and_ add the algae eaters.
It's easy to add the nutrients/CO2, it's very laborious to pick and trim off algae. So have the herbivores do that, and you follow up with good nutrients/CO2.
Trim well to get the tank as free of algae as you can first, then add herbivores and good plant nutrients/CO2 and have lots of plants.
This takes about about 2-4 times of trimming good and lots of work , then you an rely on the herbivore to do the work afterwards.
Whether you 20% or 50% water change a week, it takes almost the same time. I've always held that large frequent water changes is good. Especially when algae is an issue.
Some tanks are well balanced and folks can get away with less %.

I've been able to do it, but my plants do grow better and I do not have to rely on testing at all in order to hit the ranges I need for good plant growth.
Most have cheapy test kits so this method seems to be better than those in many cases..

I reset the tank each time I do a water change with the proper nutrient levels. I can get to within 1ppm of NO3, 1-2ppm of K, .3ppm of PO4 of my estimation.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[josh]

thanks you guys. I really appreciate the thoughtfull responses. I have never really heard the balance of algae eaters and nutrient control laid out so clearly. In fact I don't think I've heard the two discussed in relation to eachother! I definately will be hinking about how to control the nutrient levels now. But where to start? I have heard that the book by Diane Walstad "ecology of the planted aquarium" is great. Does she discuss maintaing nutrient levels? I think I am about to buy that book.

is there one kind of fertilizer that you guys use to keep everything stable, or is it multiple fertalizers? Of course I would like to have the simplest routine possible, but also have it be effective... So what am I looking for in a good nutrient addative?

thanks!
-Josh

[inxs]

I haven't read Diana Walstads book but I understand it is more geared towards a lower maintenence aquarium.

IOW less than 2wpg, no CO2 injection and low additions of nutrients - this will make for an easy to take care of tank . You will have to spend a lot less time fussing with pruning the plants and making sure all nutrients are in line however you will be limited in plantchoice somewhat and your growthrate will be a lot slower.

The choice fertilizer for a planted tank among people who are really into them seems to be PMDD (poormans dupla drops) , you can pick up the ingredients for it at most gardencenters: stumpremover for KNO3, potash for K, epsomsalt for magnesium and (my preference) Tropica Mastergrow for trace elements.
You could probably get enough for a few years for around $30.

Check out http://www.aquabotanic.com/boards/index.php also do a search on PMDD (you will probably want to adjust the recipe) and there is some good info on "florida driftwood" site about how to balance your tank.

[plantbrain]

I think the book is great(DW's)
As far as using CO2 or not, that's a choice you''ll need to make on your own terms.
If so, adding CO2 in the single biggest thing you can do to improve plant growth.
The next are adding nutrients.

If you can make cookie dough from scratch, you can can easily do dosing of nutrients.
You don't need to be "chemically" inclined.
I add 4 things and only 4 things to every tank:

Traces(5mls per 20-30 gal)
KNO3(1/4 teaspoon per 20-30 gallon)
K2SO4(1/4 teaspoon per 20-30 gal)
KH2PO4( about two rice grains worth per 20-30gal or more)
That's it.
I add the K2SO4 only after a water change once a week.
I add the others 2-3x a week.
Do a 50% weekly water change.
That will supply the plants well and the 50% weekly water change simply re sets the tank if you go over or under during the week.

Simply keep the CO2 supply up and lights on a timer and grow plants.
Pruning will increase, but plant health will also increase. Slower growing plants can be phased in if the amount of pruning seems excessive. Adding epiphytic plants to wood, moss, fern etc works well and has a nice effect.

I honestly do not spend much pruning time. It takes roughly 5 minute a sq ft to prune. I shake the plants loosely out of the gravel, prune off the lower portions, replant the tops only.
Any algae etc is also removed. Net out any floating leaves etc.
Then the water change, then add the nutrient back right after that.

There's no fuss/hassle in that. I take the cutting and sell them off.

Nutrients need not be complicated. Only 4 things and CO2/lighting.
The CO2/light part is extremely low maintenace, I touch both systems about once a every 6 months for a few minutes.
The nutrient dosing I spend as much time as folks do feeding their fish but only add the nutrients 2x beside the water change day(once a week)

It takes the same amount of time virtually to change 25% vs 50%.
A python or similar style system DIY can allow folks to change 3-4 good sized tanks in 30-40 minutes.
Pruning/scrub about 1 hour.
Dosing during the week, 5 minutes.
Total time is less than 2 hours.

Nice tank, nice plants, happy fish, plants to trade at the LFS or friends etc.

If you are interested and so lazy all you want to do is top off the tank due to evaporation, do not care about having lots of cuttings to trade(But you will have a few), are more patient, non CO2 tanks are nice also. But don't expect some of the same things from them. Don't mix methods either.
They are great for aquarist that have the neglecting attitude and can still feed their fish once a day etc. I have one at my sister's and set two up for other folks. Very nice looking tanks.

But for folks that like to watch their tanks and mess it more, the CO2 is a bit like a drug.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml

[josh]

So I'm guessing that as a general rule, the pre-prepared liquid fertilizers aren't a very consistent source of nutrirents? I've bought them every once in a while to add to the water of my tanks, but i've never really seen very significant results. I've never had the understanding of how to monitor levels of nutrients and how to make sure phosphorus is the limiting nutrient which is probably why the results were negligable. I'm interested in trying the fertalizer recipe. Tom do you get your fertilizers from a garden supply place as well?

I have used CO2 in planted tanks which has definately been the most effective promotor of plant growth in my experience. So what you're saying is really interesting! If I can get control over the algae as well as even better plant growth that would be amazing! Do you ever make a standard mix that you can just dose into the tank periodically? I suppose some of the fertalizers are independantly added like the K2SO4 once weekly after the water change and couldn't be in a standard mix.

Thanks again for the input guys!

-Josh

[plantbrain]

J
You have the CO2 down, you have the lighting down.
You have the traces down.
All that's left are the macro nutrients.

The CO2/light/traces don't work without the NPK being in a good range also.
Algae are good at living at high levels of these and also very low levels.

K2SO4-you can get it from turf supply companies for about 20-30 for 50 of fine power which quickly dissolves.
50lbs will last you, your kids and maybe your grandkid's tanks provided you are still quite young.
You can also get it and the others on line at www.litemanu.com.
Potash of sulfur is the common name.
Garden centers carry this under the "Green All" brand, about 5$ for 10lbs.

KH2PO4, can be bought from litmanu.com.
You can also use Fleet enema from a drug store for sodium phosphate which will work well.

KNO3, stump remover, available at Homer Depot, garden centers etc. I like the Grant's or Cooke's brands.

All three of these are available from turf supply stores for 15-25$ a 50 lb sack.
Many lifetime's supply.

These allow you to what ever amount of NO, K, or PO4 you want.
I add these dry, like adding a 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to home made cookies.

It really will help your plants grow much better and look better also. You'll get higher O2 levels in your tank/less algae also.

Regards.
Tom Barr

[josh]

Thanks a ton. I'll be on my way to some of those stores soon! I finished my last final exam ever (for my undergraduate years) about 30 minutes ago, and I'll be heading home for chrismas vacation soon. I hope you're having a great december.

-Josh

[Mr.Jingles]

yay! vacation!

[plantbrain]

I wore a black hood and paced around the lecture hall with an Ax as I gave an exam today. Actually is was a rather easy test, more like an easy midterm.
I'm not so lucky.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[josh]

Are you a professor over there in Georgia? If so, what do you teach?

The GSI's (graduate student instructors) here proctor most of the tests, and they were pretty cheery today. I think they were glad to be almost done with the term.

Ironically my final exam was a freshman Biology course that I had to take this year, my senior year (5th one at that) so I was taking this exam with all sorts of freshman and sophomores and they were all freaking out. A lot of them are going to med school (not me) and so they really set the standards high! (they're willing to do whatever it takes to get a good grade) It borders on quite annoying.

I love college though! I'll be sad to see it end after this year.

adios
-Josh

[plantbrain]

Nope just a TA instructor with a large amount of freedom to teach how I want which does seem to work very well without too much pain(UF). I have 60 students each semester.
I teach Evolution, Bio Diversity(Critters, weeds, smut, pond scum and slime), basics for lab reports and biological data for Bio majors only.
I "trick" my students into learning and studying, then they get good grades and are happy.
The worst grade was a C+ out of 60 students I typically teach each semester. Average was 85%. Not bad. Maybe I have all good students?
I just make it clear what they need to learn and very importantly "how" to do it. They do the work, they get the grade. They come out and do well from that class on.

Since my chair is also the lecture prof after the sequence he likes me since they come very well prepared and are able to study for exams. But it's a 750 student lecture for him. He wants me to give a few lectures for that class.
I'll likely do a few this winter. It's a bit different than 60 students and it's all lecture/no interaction on an individual basis.

I still ask myself how the hell did "I" end up there.

Dead Grandmothers right before test, or kidnapped sisters, naked roomate's boyfriends running in the their dorm room all night and they could not studying, a Latin family moved in into their share room(4 of them) and won't leave, another got mono, had An F, C-, and a D- and wants all the $ back and wants to take the class over again the day before the final. Truly amazing stories:)

No need to be sad, there's always grad school.

You could base your graduate career on "Ghost shrimp dynamic ecosystem modeling in artifical enviroments".

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Skippy]

Someone had mentioned using Ghost shrimp to see if the tank would let ammano shrimp survive. (testing the occupants for how much they like to eat shrimp and all...)

I have a tank right now. heavily planted, currently hosting 4 Clown Loaches and a small group of blue gouriami (thier tank is being remodeled for them by the moment and these are temp accomidations they seem to be dealing well with...)

Odds on ghost shrimp lasting more than a week in there?

;)

[inxs]

Skippy: Not good, not good at all.

[plantbrain]

I use to feed my loaches shrimp, it was their favorite food.
Regards,
Tom Barr

[Skippy]

Well I am preparing a SE Asian tank right now, which will be where the Gourami and Loaches move to soon.


Then maybe I'll try some amanno shrimp, because i do really love the way they look and scurry around.

[inxs]

If you have a tank dedicated to shrimp make sure you don't have any larger fish as they will , more than likley , nibble at the shrimp when they molt - which they will.

Tetras or rasboras would go well.

You should also look into the bamboo shrimp which gets slightly larger and is a filterfeeder(I believe) which would work well in a planted tank.

[Skippy]

The Bamboo shrimp is also called a "wood shrimp" I think I just saw some on auction on www.aquabid.com .

The end goal for my big tank is probably going to be Peacock Gudgeons, Ammano shrimp, some ottos, then either a group of rasboras or Cardinal tetras.

One question a friend raised was if Discus would go after shrimp and small fish with thier well documented timid nature.

I don't know why but I like the idea of a heavily planted tank with tiny fish in it.

I have , on the other hand, a 55 in my "workshop" which has some 7"+ green severum in it with a pleco.

The new 55 will house the small group of clown loaches and blue gouriami with probably a bristlenose or rubber lip pleco for algae control.

Hello, my name is Skippy, and I have a fish problem.

[inxs]

Discus will eat shrimp and smaller fish.

Watch out with the bristlenosed pleco in a planted tank - it will consume the algae present overnight and then rasp on plants, especially larger leaved ones like swords.

You need to provide a lot of bulk vegetable food for them

[Skippy]

If the ottos and ammano shrimp can handle up on the algae control I might not add the bristle, I have another tank which could use his tender mercies anyways.

[inxs]

I just set up a 125 and it quickly got a serious hairalgae problem so today I added 16 rosy barbs , 4 black mollies and a few ottos.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Mr.Jingles]

can we archive this and rename it algae and nutrient balance?

[Richer]

Mr. Jingles, consider it done =)

-Richer