Newbie to plants, need some advice

[Andy16]

Ok, ive read some stuff on plants and all that already, but everything is just too complicated for me to understand. Like i dont knwo what co2 does or why you need or how to make a reactor. I also dont know about the lighting or anything like that. Then theres the fertilizers, where once again im totally lost in. I hav eno idea how much light, what kind of fertilizers to use and what they do, and what substrate to use. SO currently I have a one bulb hood that is the flourescent kind. I dont know if that would be enough for a 20 gallon tank. I also dont know if i need a current or if it has to be still water. I have a penguin 170 and a AC mini. I am planning on getting a fluval or a eheim. I have tahitain moon sand.

[anonapersona]

A site I've got bookmarked for plants, might help with some questions

Aquatic concepts - G. Booth (http://www.frii.com/~gbooth/AquaticConcepts/index.htm)

[carpguy]

The plant stuff is complicated. If you want to put in the effort it can be a great thing, but it means more time and money sent into the tank and there is a fairly steep learning curve. Extra lights and ferts can create algae problems if your not careful. Its not hard to create problems and get frustrated.

If you are interested though, the site that Annonapersona linked to is a great place to start. Take a look at the Tech Briefs on Plant Basics and CO2, then wander about… good info all over the place.

One regular flourescent over a 20g is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 1 watt per gallon (wpg), which is generally considered to be low light. If you add light and don't get enough carbon and ferts in there, you will get algae (get too much ferts and not enough light, also algae). There are a number of low light plants and you could look into starting out low-light while you're learning and add on later. Low light tanks are a little easier to keep in line. More light will mean faster growth and more options.

Plants are made of stuff. Having a small plant turn into a couple of bigger plants means that that stuff had to be in the water at some point to get absorbed by the plants and organized into more plant. So what is this stuff? Mostly carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium (the macros), and smaller amounts of a bunch of other stuff (the micros). I use the usual set of DIY macro ferts… Spectracide Stump Remover for Nitrogen, NuSalt for Potassium, Fleet for Phosphates. Flourish and Flourish Iron take care of my traces. Tom Barr has a good article on estimating doses (http://www.aquatic-plants.org/fert/est_index/est_index1.html). Chuck Gadd has a dosage calculator (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm) if you want to try and maintain specific levels.

The plants use a lot of carbon during photosynthesis. Terrestrial or semi-aquatic plants can hoover CO2 out of the air. Fully submerged plants have a harder time getting carbon, especially under the types of conditions we like to keep in our tanks. Seachem makes a carbon supplement called Excel. This would be especially good for a low light tank. A lot of people like DIY CO2 (http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html). Annonapersona, for instance, has done a lot of research into it and knows quite a bit about how to get it spinning like a top. Personally I found it frustrating and decided to go pressurized, which I'm very happy with.

If you're supplementing CO2 you are pushing it above the level at which it is naturally in your tank. It wants to return to this level. The flatter you can keep the surface, the more you can slow this return down. HOBs can work, it might just be harder to reach a certain level of CO2. Canisters make it easier. Minimizing splashing will make it easier, etc.

The plants use the energy they can get from light to organize the stuff. Any leftovers will be used up by opportunists, commonly different types of algae. Keeping the whole thing balanced is where you'll find the learning curve. It just takes a little time to sort through.

HTH

[Andy16]

Thanks for the link and the great reply. I read a ton of stuff and for some reason, it is just so hard to understand. I guess for sure ill need a bigger light. I still dotn understand hte co2 thing. When you make a co2 reactor, where does the co2 come from? DO you haev to put hte co2 in there or does is just make itself? Also, if i get low light plants, adn then later, get a nicer hood for my fish tank, would the low light plants die because there is too much light then? Antother quesiton that im pretty curious about is how many options are htere for a low light tnak? Where do you get your fertilizers? and finally, does the amount of fish that i would have matter? I still dont think im picking anyhting up, maybe plants arent my thing.

[djlen]

Re-read Carpguy's post. It explains many things very well, and the post on DIY CO2 that he refers you to pretty much simplifies the CO2 process.
Even for low light plants you will need to upgrade your lighting to 1.5 watts/gal. minimum. For you that means at least 30 watts. 40 - 50 would be better and still keep you in the low light category(which is a good place to start). You can grow a number of plants at this level. More lighting is for the more experienced aquarist.
No, increasing your lighting later will only help your low light plants grow faster. It won't negatively affect them.
For fertilizer info. I refer you to the sticky at the top of the plants page. Just about anything we could tell you is already contained there.
Len

[myersrj40]

Originally posted by djlen
Even for low light plants you will need to upgrade your lighting to 1.5 watts/gal. minimum. For you that means at least 30 watts. 40 - 50 would be better and still keep you in the low light category(which is a good place to start).

Ok, I am going through this problem also. I have the same situation with just the single light on a 20 gallon. My question is what is the cheapest way to get more watts? I am planning on buying a dual light strip, so that would bring it up to 30 watts. Is there are other 18" flourecent lights that are more than 15 watts? If so where do you get them?? Thanks, sorry to butt in on your post Andy16!

[djlen]

30 watts is the bare minimum for low light plants, IMO. You would be able to grow Javas, Crypts, Anubias, Apons. and some stem plants with that lighting.
I have a 55 with a 48" dual tube, bench light that only produces 80 watts. and grow all of the above pretty well at 1 1/2 watts. I do use ferts and CO2 as well, but with patience you could develope a nice tank with that light and with light fertilization.

I just feel that it's always better for newbies to start with low light and learn the ropes. Too many horror stories from people who start with 3 - 4 watts/gal. with algae. You can always upgrade your lighting as you learn what's required with higher light.
BTW, sometimes "the cheapest way" is not the best way to go. Check out this site for some nice lighting suggestions:
www.ahsupply.com
I think their 36 watt light kit would fit into a 20 Gal. fixture....I think.........
Len

[Andy16]

I read carpguys post again and decided that i should take this one step at a time. Figuring one thing out at a time. so ill start with the co2. Do you need a co2 reactor and a generator? or do you just need one or the other?

I think if i take it slower and ask one thing at a time, i can get it all in my head.

myersrj40, no problem, probably osme good info will come out of that question.

[djlen]

You need both. One makes the CO2, the other disperses it into the tank. Since you have two filters they both should be turned down as low as possible in order to create less surface disruption with will "gas off" the CO2 and waste what you produce.
You can get many more answers to your questions by using our search engine in the upper right of the page. Just type in CO2 and you'll find all kinds of info on the subject.
Len

[Andy16]

I understand now about the co2 thing, but what are hte chances of the generator part blowing up? That would be the end of my fish tank career then once my mom sees what mess that would make. Thats hte only thing scaring me about that thing.


it would be cool and all, until i had to get rid of my fish tank.

[djlen]

That's the price of fame.......you pays your money and you takes your chances........
Len

[myersrj40]

Andy16, I just picked this up a few days ago, C02 Natural Plant System from the company Nutrafin. Here is a web site with some info on it http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/ac...ystems_155.html . Mine seems to be running pretty smoothly and it is a cheap way to go C02 at just $29.99. I got mine at my local Petland.

Does anybody have any more input on the whole lighting thing??

[carpguy]

Whether you go DIY or pressurized, you'll need a source of CO2. A tank or a generator. These tend to release bubbles of CO2.

For DIY most folks use old soda(/pop) bottles. These were designed to hold a carbonated liquid under pressure! (Ideal for our purposes…) If you go to the krib you can find the inevitable story about the bottle that blew, but I don't think it happens all that often. Airstones getting clogged with bacteria seem to be a culprit. A snail getting in the line? Is the snail stronger than the bottle? I have seen every now and then plans for a blowoff valve… might be good for peace of mind.

A CO2 tank is a pretty sturdy affair and shouldn't give you any trouble unless you manage to drop it or knock it over and snap the neck. Very bad.

(I've never heard a single report of Excel exploding).

Once you bring those bubbles over into the tank they'll float to the top and disappear into the air… not what we want. When I tried an airstone I found that it made smaller bubbles that then floated to the top and disappeared into the air. Since more smaller bubbles have a much larger surface area than one big bubble more CO2 was able to diffuse into the water on the way up, but not real efficient. Unhappy with that, I stuck the gasline into the intake on my HOB. The impeller blades smash the bubbles into a mist, but right near the surface and in an area of turbulence. Its supposed to be better than an airstone, but not as good as a reactor. The CO2 is piped into a chamber where its forced to mix with water for a good long while before it has a chance of making it to the surface. There are a handful of ways of doing this, all out there somewhere.

AH Supply (http://www.ahsupply.com) is a great place to go if you're interested in setting up DIY Compact Flourescent lights. CF light is about as efficient as Normal Output (NO) flourescent on a watt for watt basis, but you can get a lot more watts out of the same size bulb (its compact). The 55w CF bulb is just under 24" and should fit on a 20g. The 36w is just under 18" and should fit on a 10. Lots of light.

Flourish, Flourish Iron, and Excel I bought from my LFS. All are easy to find online. NuSalt at the supermarket, Spectracide Stump Remover (make sure it mentions Nitrate on the label) at Lowe's, Fleet at the pharmacy (it's a pre-mixed enema solution… Seachem also sells a Phosphate solution for the faint of heart).

Its not hard, it just takes some time and can be frustrating until you get the hang of it. Now that I've seen what I can do I can't imagine not having a planted tank. But thats several months and several hundred bucks down the road.

Low light will restrict your selection somewhat, but not terribly. I think the WetMan keeps low light tanks where he relies on tap water, the fish, and leftover fish food to provide most of his ferts. Occosionally doses a little NuSalt. Its cheaper to get started and its harder to lose control of it while you're learning (most of my original plants were destroyed during a several month long battle with algae), but you won't get booming growth and I think in the long run it may take even more finesse to be successful… learning still required… :D

HTH

edit:
I started with 2.6 wpg and have never run low light -- I'd take DJLen's word for the bottom end… he knows his plants.

[Andy16]

I think ill but as much co2 stuff as i can afford, so i dont make a mistake and waste all my money going the diy way. I have a feeling people are getting frustrated with me by now but i am still having trouble with all this:D I understand a reef tank more then i understand this. I was wondering if i could plant my tank with some plants taht dont need co2 or fertilizers so i have some influence and so i can understand this better. Im more a hands on type or person, so if i saw all the diy co2 reactors and generators, i could understand them.

another quesiton i have is how do you test for the trace elements, co2 , and ferts?

[carpguy]

There are no plants that don't need CO2, nutrients, and light. There are plant setups that don't need nutrients and CO2 added to them on a regular basis (they still need light, but not as much). I'm sure you can see where this is going… start with a low light tank. The important thing here is to keep an eye on how everything links together.

Add a second bulb… see if you can retrofit it into you're existing hood. See if you can work out a way to do it inexpensively (we'll assume its temporary). Get some low light plants. Crypts and java fern come to mind. Anubias, hornwort, elodea. They're all pretty available. Leave the CO2 alone for the time being. Get some Excel and dose a little when you feed the fish. Feed the fish a little bit extra. The Excel will provide some carbon in a form available to the plants. The fish will produce nitrates and ammonia -- the plants will use this for nitrogen. The fish food has some phosphates in it. You're tapwater will have these things as well. Maybe try dosing a little flourish once a week. Your plants won't be growing that fast because there isn't that much light or CO2, so they won't need all that much as far as nutrients go.

Read up on things and follow some of the threads to see what problems others are having. It'll start to become clear after a bit. Post here when you start to have a problem or feel frustrated. Put a little away for the investments in big hardware.

When you decide you've got a handle on the basics and you're ready to go all out you'll need to address all three areas at once. You can start with a DIY CO2 rig. If you're looking into canisters (saw other thread) its fairly easy to make a reactor and you'll still need it if you decide to go pressurized. You can install an AH kit into your existing hood or build/buy a canopy for it. You could install a 36w kit now and you'd still be at low light. Later on you could add a second if you want to go high light, or add back the NO light for moderate.

Once you get past about 2 wpg you'll have gotten yourself into a situation where the plants will want to grow. They'll start running through nutrients faster than the fish and the water changes can replace them. So you'll start adding more fertilizers to try and keep up but now the plants can't get enough carbon so they're still limited and they're leaving nutrients around because they can't utilize them as efficiently as the algae can. And the algae will. And it'll start to grow on the leaves and the plants won't be able to benefit from your very nice lights and they'll start to die leaving more and more nutrients available for the dreaded algae that have by now completely covered over every rock and every plant and needs to be scraped off the glass twice a week and you'll be as unhappy as I was when it happened to me.

And then you'll either get fed up and go back to fish only or you'll figure out where you've let the system go out of balance and you'll fix it. You need to have the right levels of all 3 -- light, CO2, nutrients -- at the same time. Increasing one means increasing all. Keeping them balanced is tricky.

And if you need help sorting it out, then there are plenty of folks out here who'll be happy to chime in.

And a CO2 reactor can either be inline (http://www.aquaticscape.com/articles/co2reactor.htm) (with a canister) or not, with a powerhead (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/diy_reactor.htm). But you'd already have seen stuff like that if you'd read that nice article on DIY CO2 that was linked above. You cannot avoid reading. Its all out there if you want it.