OK,Now lets talk water..

[ozzy]

Hello again AC
so what type of water is best for FW,tapwater,RO/DI ...???
what type of params do I want in FW planted tanks ??
I'm sure if I went for the same params I do in my salt tank I would have a problem,do I treat the water in anyway ??
in my salt tank I add a buffer for my cal & alk....so do I add any type of buffers to fresh water ??
and last but not least,what to test for in a planted aquarium ??
thanks again guys,you all have been a great help

[Wulfy]

I personaly belive that Bore water is best as its (usually) devoid of impurites. This however may not be your option because
your bore water may have too high or too low PH
or disolved solids or whatever.
So you have to check.

If Bore water falls through the best water you can have
is from an osmosis unit. You can have those from as low as U$200
I think.

If youll be planting the tank, keeping the right CO2/KH balance
will assist in the plant growth and it also should make the fish
happy.

Tap water is an option but I never had to use it.
Naturally you need to use dechlorinator.
Check with the water people (or LFS) what chlorinators they use.
In some areas they use a super strong mofo that some
dechlorinators do not remove.

[TKOS]

As long as you use a good dechlorinator (also get one that does chloramines) then tap water is fine. First let some tap water sit out for at least 24 hours then test. If the pH and hardness are fine for the fish you want to keep then presto you got it made. If the pH is way off then you have to decide what to do. Lower the pH is pretty easy by adding in RO or distilled water to your tap water till you get what you want, or else peat or driftwood will work as well.

The first thing you want to do is decide what is going in the tank and then figure out from there what you need to do.

[wetmanNY]

Freshwater is more various than the seawater of open seas in the tropics, which is pretty much the same round the world. So it depends on what you have to work with (we have no hint) and what you plan to do.

The character of your borewater aka wellwater depends entirely on your aquifer. There's no such entity as "borewater" pure and simple. It may be quite polluted with arsenic or cadmium, especially in desert areas, or may contain high levels of nitratesand phosphates in agricultural areas.

In a planted tank you don't want any more carbonate buffering than a minimum to keep pH stable.

Rainwater is an alternative to R/O water that is often overlooked.

There is good introductory material concerning water at www.thekrib.com Don't neglect the FAQs there.

[RTR]

WetmanNY - Care to justify or expand on

"In a planted tank you don't want any more carbonate buffering than a minimum to keep pH stable."

I question that statement as leading to water modifications which are a waste of time and money. Whyever not? There are very, very few plants which care a whit about the KH of the water. Plants care about CO2 and light and macro- and micronutrients, not pH/KH.

Certain fish care about pH/KH for breeding, but not so much for maintenance. But that is not the topic question.

The rest of it, I agree.

[wayne]

Because the rising kH and pH both react out weak carbonic acid, making much less of it unavailable to plants. When CO2 is dissolved it becomes carbonic acid.
I agree 99% of water manipulation is a waste of effort tho'g

[ozzy]

In a planted tank you don't want any more carbonate buffering than a minimum to keep pH stable.
So what is a good KH for a planted tank?I maintain a KH of 10.9dkh in my reef with a ph of 8.2
and I'm sure this is a bit high for FW..
wetmanNY thanks for the link,I'll give it a look tonight

[wetmanNY]

RTR, I didn't mean to endorse largely fruitless water modification, but my firm impression is (I've been wrong so often before, but how're ya gonna learn?) my impression is, that if you add carbonate to water you reduce the available CO2. So, you want to add just enough carbonate to stabilize pH, but not more than that minimum-- whatever the figures might be...

I run planted tanks on a disgracefully low KH myself...

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
... .... ....Rainwater is an alternative to R/O water that is often overlooked.
.... Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't trust that. And, it wouldn't be reliable enough for regular water changes - except on smaller tanks. Out of curiousity, I'll post the question.. :confused:

[125gJoe]

R/O water is "soft" water...

My tap water here in central Florida is extremely "hard" water, and not too good for Discus. So I went out and spent $$ on a R/O De-ionizing system. It makes 50 gallons of 'pure' water a day.

[Matak]

Originally posted by 80gJoe
Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't trust that. And, it wouldn't be reliable enough for regular water changes - except on smaller tanks. Out of curiousity, I'll post the question.. :confused: I would agree as our government (provincial or federal? not sure) advises not drinking it. I have always heard that potable water is OK for most fish.

[RTR]

I will not argue soft water for breeding discus, apistos, rasboras, blackwater fish in general, but that is not the topic.

The topic question refers to the KH/pH of the water and desirable levels for plants. The desirable level for plants in the large majority of public water supplies in the US is what comes out of the tap.

Plant tank folk get so wrapped up with the CO2/KH/pH tables that they make the mental leap that lower pH means more CO2 in the water. Yes it does, at and only at, constant KH. Repeat, only at constant KH. Folks forget that the curves that create those tables are based on CO2 addition. Check

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml

Look at KH 10.0, pH 7.0. The dissolved CO2 is 30ppm.

Look at KH 2.5, pH 6.4. The dissolved CO2 is 30ppm.

Guess what? The higher KH does not affect the solution of CO2. You start from a higher pH and end at a higher pH, but you get the same concentration of dissolved CO2. That is the only way this sort of three-variable table can function. The results can be distorted by acids other than carbonic, but the tables (for better or worse) assume no interference from other acids or buffers than carbonate/bicarbonate.

Very heavy going I admit, but you might try:

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/hardwater.shtml

HTH

Edit: If this confuses you, don't be dismayed. It confuses lots of folk, including a number of respected authors (who should IMHO know better). We all stumble over our own prejudices, most often because we don't stop and examine them for validity.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by ozzy
Hello again AC
so what type of water is best for FW,tapwater,RO/DI ...???
... ....To answer this part ---- RO/DI water. There are other things to consider, but that's my basic answer.

[Matak]

Joe, I remember this Q. came up on the old forum. It was suggested that RO or distilled water is completely devoid of minerals and could "leach" the fish and weaken them. I have heard the same for humans, that we should consume at least some mineralized water.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Matak
... It was suggested that RO or distilled water is completely devoid of minerals and could "leach" the fish and weaken them. .... Ooops, I left that part out...
The use of Kent R/O Right or something similar must be used to make the water "fish safe" again. Someone back then also mentioned to add some tap water to get 'good' minerals back..

[wetmanNY]

The Garden watersaver website shows you how to make and install rainbarrels: http://gardenwatersaver.com/home.html
Does conserving rainwater smack of subversive politics?

I guess the people most interested in scaring you about rainwater are the ones who are offering some kind of alternative: distilled water + bottled "electrolytes." Or corporate nationalists: "You better not eat the fish you catch in our rivers, and you better not drink our rain."


If water is scarce, what there is, is likely to be high in dissolved minerals, because copious rainfall leaches the carbonates out of the soil, and can even create limestone caverns.

If one lives in a drought-prone area and can afford to run a R/O system that flushes drinking water into the septic tank... maybe people are not really paying enough for their mains water.

When there's a cloudburst thunderstorm in New York, you should hear the shrieking and squealing! Perhaps somemodern people do deeply fear rainwater.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
....Does conserving rainwater smack of subversive politics?
... .. If one lives in a drought-prone area and can afford to run a R/O system that flushes drinking water into the septic tank... maybe people are not really paying enough for their mains water... Waste water produced by an R/O can be used for lawn and gardens...;)

[Matak]

Originally posted by 80gJoe
Waste water produced by an R/O can be used for lawn and gardens...;) Which would be great if you could figure a way to capture it. Most domestic RO's waste directly to the drain.

Wetman: Yes, conserving rainwater is subversive. Do you drive a Beetle by any chance? ;)

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Matak
Which would be great if you could figure a way to capture it. Buckets.. It takes more effort though. The 'waste' water line comes directly off the R/O system, so you can route the line just about anywhere.

[wetmanNY]

Worse! I use public transportation! But I had a Volkwagen Campmobile (with the pop-top and the built-in cooler and thefolddown table and the foldout bed) in the early 70s-- trekked across Canada, the summer that all sensible Canadian kids ran away to Vancouver to bake pies in communes and the U.S., sleeping under the pop-top in State and Provincial and National Parks...

Bliss was it, in that dawn to be alive.
But to be young was very heaven!"

--Samuel Taylor Coleridge

[125gJoe]

OK - but how was the water...?

:)

[Matak]

Water? I think he might have drank the Kool-Aid :eek: :D