View Full Version : Rams Having Breathing trouble?
GobyGuy5
08-02-2003, 2:02 PM
I haven't had my Rams for long, so I'm not sure if my Rams are having breathing problems, or if they breathe this fast normally. This morning I fed my fish like normal, and I noticed one of my Rams in particular, was breathing quite fast, faster than once per second. The other was breathing quickly, but not as fast as that one. Interestingly, all the other fish in my tank are fine. I had been watching ammonia and nitrite, and by yesterday, they were down to zero, so I don't suspect it is one of the two. I know Rams can be sensitive fish, so I'm wondering if they were having problems before my other fish did? I tested the DO, around 5ppm. I understand this to be a little low, so I added an airstone, did a water change, and hours later I'm still seeing the same problem. I don't think this is normal for them, considering their behaivor appears to be unnormal, but I'm not sure considering I haven't had these fish too long, and I could just be paranoid...
Can anyone offer me some advice?
EDIT:spelling...
Hebdizzle
08-02-2003, 3:49 PM
DO = dissolved oxygen? where did you get a test for that?
GobyGuy5
08-02-2003, 4:07 PM
From Bigal's it was a Tetra Test kit ~$7
Any help with my Rams?
I keep reading posts about people having trouble with rams but I have never had a single problem with my wild altispinosa. You said your ammonia and nitirite by yesterday were down to zero, were they something other before? This could be a clue. What is the temp of your tank? Do you have live plants? Live plants will help with the O2 issue. Who are the tank mates? Anyone that might chase them? Hope I can help.
Aderynglas
08-02-2003, 7:30 PM
Well Goby Guy,
I'm assuming you have M. Ramirezi (German/Blue Rams) ??
If you had any reading of ammonia or nitrIte ('by yesterday they were down to 0 ') then its possible that your rams have suffered some gill damage. These really are delicate fish requiring excellent conditions from the day you get them. Even nitrAtes above 15-20 can damage these fish - and thats without any Ammonia or nitrItes.
Even with perfect conditions it can be difficult to keep these fish as they may have suffered during shipping or in the shop!
Over here (Wales) many people find Discus easier to keep than Rams :eek:.
I would suggest doing a few partial water changes and make sure to dechlorinate/dechloraminate the new water. Also make sure that none of the other fish are stressing the Rams as they could be suffering from stress. Good luck.
As with Discus I would reccomend only putting Rams in a tank that has been cycled for a few months.
Scott - I agree M. Altispinosa is much hardier. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to give it ideal conditions. I firmly believe that all fish deserve the right conditions. :) (Just my HO :) )
Just my 0.02p worth, hope it helps some.
Regards
Polly
Rams are very sensitive fish and any decline in water quality would adversely affect them. On top of being sensitive it is very hard to find quality ram juveniles for sale, most are mass produced in Asia and are of poor quality. They are also usually bred in ponds and many have gill flukes. Also what is your water temp? Rams do best in water about 84F.
GobyGuy5
08-03-2003, 8:06 AM
I was talking about M. Ramirezi, although they share the tank with M. Altispinosa, my other fish have had no problems. The tank was well established, up and running for a year, so I saw very little ammonia or nitrite, just the smallest 'bump'. Around 0.25 ppm for ammonia and I could barely detect the nitrite. Nitrates haven't gone above 20 during my keeping them. My tank temp is at 78 F. Could it be my pH that is causing the problem? It's around 8. I've been working to lower it, but I just started that. I have a couple live plants, and was planning on adding some more soon, but for the moment a Java Fern and a Banana Plant are all that graces my tank. As for Stress, the Rams are always the one's causing all the stress, chasing my poor Bolivians (Altispinosa) out of their turf. But, now that's changed, they're acting rather debilitated, just staying still near the gravel, that's it, no chasing or acting lively :(. I don't suspect gill flukes, because they aren't 'flashing' (scratching their gills on decorations or gravel). Here's a complete stocking list if that's any help:
2 German Blue Rams (M. Ramirezi)
2 Bolivian Rams (M. Altispinosa)
3 Platys
1 Ottocinclus
2 Hatchetfish
1 USD Catfish
Assuming the worst, that they did suffer gill damage, is it permanent or somewhat reversible, furthermore, are there any other possibilites? And could my pH or temperature be suspect? I could gradually change the pH to 7 if it's necessary...I was already working on it.
Thanks for the responses so far, I hope to get this worked out soon...
Gill damage isn't always permanent. You could 1/2 dose with melafix since M. ramirezi are sensitive to medications. If you are not familiar with melafix it is tea tree oil and had antibacterial and antifungal properties. It will speed up the heaing process as well as warding off infection.
Your pH could be the problem. If you want to continue to keep sensitive South Americans like M. ramirezi I recommend an RO unit. There are some reasonable ones out there. What is your KH and GH? This will tell you the buffering capacity of your water. Since your pH is high I am assuming your water is hard (because it usually is). Hard water has a high buffering capacity to prevent pH changes. If you are planning on adding chemicals to the tank to lower pH and your KH esp. is high you will have to add more chemical to overcome the buffering and change pH. In the not too long run this is much more expensive than an RO unit.
GobyGuy5
08-03-2003, 12:58 PM
My tap water's pH is 8, the KH is 20.5 degrees dH. My GH is near zero (water softener...). We have an RO unit, I'm not sure if I can use it too much for water changes or not, but the pH that comes from it is 6.5 and the water has near zero KH and GH (of course). I have started mixing the RO water and tap water to achieve a pH of approximately 7, and a KH of 7, and pumping this in with my water change. If they do have gill damage, how long would it take them to heal with and without the medication? I'd assume the damage is not severe considering they've survived a couple days like this, and seem to be slowly improving.
Are there any other answers besides gill damage?
Should I adjust my temp higher or lower to suit them?
Again, thanks for the help so far, I'd like to solve this all soon...
Goby
If you want to be successful in keeping rams you will need to adjust the water to their liking. A mix of RO and tap water is good. You don't need to make the water exactly like their natural water but pH 8.0 is too high and your KH is too high. Temp is too low. Raise it slowly over a couple of days.
You have a water softner? That may be the problem right there. Water softners work by exchanging one salt for another. That would explain your high KH too. Any type of salt is irritating to rams.
The amount of time it takes to heal depends on the amount of damage.
GobyGuy5
08-04-2003, 9:22 AM
Okay, so I'll lower the pH, and the KH.
On the temperature exactly what should I shoot for?
(Keep in mind, I have livebearers in the tank as well...)
The saltiness of the water could cause gill damage?
wow, If that's so I'll fix it by the end of the day!
Jeesh, I didn't know salt bothered these guys! :eek:
My tank is at 82. I used to keep it at about 79 but I added heavier lighting now that I am trying to grow plants and it has raised the temp some. The altispinosa seems to be very active at this new temp. You might try raising the temp. Live plants will also help keep your nitrates down, adding them to my tank eleminated them. Try adding some more java fern as it is hardy and can sustain in low light conditions quite well with the simple addition of Flourish.
Adernyglas, I agree that conditions should be ideal for fish but consistency is much more important than "ideal". As previously stated most of these fish are farm bread and have no idea what the wild conditions are.
I think with your mix of tap and ro to lower the TDS is a great start. I think raising the temp and adding some more plants might help to. Good luck!
I'm not sure if the salt will cause gill damage in particular, but I do know these little guys are very sensitive to salts. They come from streams with very little in the way of disolved salts and organics. They are not blackwater fish but do benefit from the addition of peat to soften the water. Temp. about 82F and a mix of tap and RO water will be great. Plants will also be great as they make the rams feel more secure and you will find them swimming out in the open more. They are great fish, just sensitive. Another thing is that they don't have long life spans, only about 2 years.
How are the fish doing?
GobyGuy5
08-05-2003, 10:48 AM
:( Unfortuantely, they died last night
I changed out a full quarter of their water with RO water, and they continued to get worse.
I'd like to at least LEARN from this experience, so that perhaps in the future I could keep them, but for now, maybe I should just stick with Gobies :(
Thanks for helping me so much, I greatly appreciate all the time you spent trying to help me save my fish. I'm still unsure about what killed them, and I was considering posting on General Freshwater to figure out what happened...