Flourish Excel = snake oil?

[delmore]

Has anyone had good results with Flourish Excel? I understand that it is best for soft to medium hard water, and for low light plants. I have a planted tank with Wisteria, watersprite planted, and an unidentified plant.

i'd use diy co2, but it will be difficult to hide.

I'm going to my lfs to get some stuff today so i'd appreciate hearing about your first hand experience.

Thanks!

[Tempest]

The reports I've read say it gives about a third of the results of CO2 gas. It's not snake oil but not as good as CO2 either I'd say. :)

[Cearbhaill]

I am using Flourish Excel in my 90 gallon planted tank with overwhelmingly good results. I have even begun asking myself "where is all the algae everyone keeps complaining about?"
The key is to have lots of fast growing plants, don't over supply lighting, and be realistic about which plants will do well.

If you click on "Tank Photos " in my sig I have a plant list of what I am having success with. I'm by no means any kind of expert, but I am very happy with my results- the ease of maintenance, the look I've achieved, and the product support.
If you email Seachem and provide a snail mail address they will send you a handy dandy chart detailing how much of what else you need to use.
But I made my plan before I had my chart in hand and have been doing so well "if it ain't broke...", so there is a certain amount of room for tinkering.

[RTR]

IMHO & IME Excel is not "snake oil", but neither is it the equivalent of pressurized CO2. Whether or not it does the job you need will likely depend on your lighting levels - if you are going high light, it may not be enough.

[Starry]

I have a related question, while we're on topic. The directions say 1 mL per day for 10 gal, and 5 mL or so after a water change. Do you guys follow the directions? At this rate, a bottle should last reasonably long for a 10-gal. I think I might buy it, as back-up for when I don't have time to tinker with yeast. Also, does the KH cause any problems? If I have very high KH, will I need to add more... etc etc.
Thanks :)

[Tempest]

Starry-Don't overdose the Excel. There have been some reports on other forums of fish death from overdosing.

[Rocketman]

Yes, he bottle says DON'T OVERDOSE. I just put a capful into my 60G Gallon tank every day, (when I'm home,) which comes to about 15-20 days a month. It definitly isn't the equivilent of Pressurized Co2, it is a good "Poor Man's Co2 System" however. I've been getting better results than when I wasn't using, I'm just concerned about the price.

[plantbrain]

As long as you do not add too much lighting, Excel works well.
An IV dripper or a dose in the AM is good. As mentioned, do not overdose.
Your tank will do even better if you use CO2 gas even at low light etc, but this might be simpler for you to add this. KH does not effect this product to any significant degree.

It's good for folks with 0-2KH water that want to add some carbon for the plants but don't want the KH up at 2-3 degrees and also have lower lighting.

DIY CO2 is mighty simple and feeding it into the filter can be done with nothing inside the tank at all.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[delmore]

Originally posted by plantbrain
DIY CO2 is mighty simple and feeding it into the filter can be done with nothing inside the tank at all.

Instead of using a reactor, can you run the tube into an Aquaclear?

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Cearbhaill
......If you email Seachem and provide a snail mail address they will send you a handy dandy chart detailing how much of what else you ..... .. Does your chart have very fine print on it?? I wonder if it's the same chart I got from them.

From what I've heard, Excel is not a 'snake oil gimmick'....

SeaChem has been very prompt with e-mail questions. :)

[Cearbhaill]

Does your chart have very fine print on it??
Yes- very fine print.

If they don't get a decent sized version on a website somewhere I will slap it up on one of mine.

[djlen]

delmore, yes you can feed it right into the intake tube of your AC filter. The AC is not the best way of injecting....probably about 30% efficient, but it will inject some into the water table. Better absorption than say an air stone but not as good as the following.

A better way is to pick up an AquaClear Power Head and run your CO2 line into the bottom of that. The absorption rate is much higher and they aren't very expensive(Big Al's). I use a 402 model on my 55 gals., but they make smaller ones for smaller tanks.

As Tom Barr says, Excel works fine in a low light environment

I would use it only in tanks up to 20 - 25 gals. When you start getting into bigger tanks the cost-effectiveness goes way down. You just have to use too much of the stuff for the desired affect in larger tanks. I have never used it, but have heard this from many people who have. From all reports, it is definitely not "Snake Oil".
Len

[delmore]

Thanks for the great information! I'll try the excel on a 5.5g and 20g long low light planted tanks. I'll post the results in a few months.

[Rocketman]

Word, DJLen. I took me 3 months to use a bottle of Flourish Excel in my 60 Gallon, and I was only dosing it about 3 times a week.

The problem is, I don't want a tank that is very heavily planted. I don't enjoy that messy, natural look. I just want a few live plants, but I find even these hard to maintain without some sort of supplement...the fact that I only want my plants to stay alive makes it senseless to spend $100 or, most likely, more on a Co2 setup plus the extra maintaince time.

[cpr4cpu]

IME, the Excel product is very useful. I personally use it in a 55 gallon tank that I do not have the room to use pressurized CO2.

Although not as effective, it is easier and at 1ML per 10 gallons it will last a while (I dose 5ml daily for my 55 gallon tank)

Also, if this is a low light tank only add it every other day to avoid possible shock to the fish. and be sure you have nitrate and iron in the water as well (add Flourish Iron 1x week). Nitrate is easy, just feed the fish more...

[Starry]

Originally posted by djlen

A better way is to pick up an AquaClear Power Head and run your CO2 line into the bottom of that. The absorption rate is much higher and they aren't very expensive(Big Al's). I use a 402 model on my 55 gals., but they make smaller ones for smaller tanks.
Len

Do you mind if I grill you on this a little? I definitely need a better method than I have now for both filtration and CO2 diffusion. So, Do you mean the powerhead alone or the version with the "quick-filter" attachment? I've never seen this, and I've never used one, but from what I see on the Big Al's site, what if I fill up the media compartment with bio balls and stick the CO2 line in there? Or is it good enough if I just get the powerhead? Then how do I hook it up? I have a sponge filter right now, but I'm only using it to provide circulation and feed fry. I'm convinced I don't need extra filtration. I have a 10-gal with lots of (mostly) healthy plants, and only a few small platies. I'm not planning on adding any more, so my fish load is really small. So, any ideas? Thanks so much

[djlen]

Starry, I'm confused. First you said you "definitely need a better method for CO2 diffusion and filtration" Then you say you don't need extra filtration.
If you don't need any more filtration then you just need a more efficient method of dispersing CO2, correct?
If this is correct, I think a better option in a small(10gal.) tank would be something more passive than a power head.

I've been having the same dilemma over my 10 gal.hosp./isolation
tank. I'm thinking about getting one of those bubble counters/reactors that comes with the Hagen CO2 System. Not the system. Just the bubble counter. I don't know the dimensions of it so I don't know if it will fit in my 10gal., but with one of them there would be no additional water movement and better absorption than what I'm now using(an AC Mini Filter).
Thoughts?
Len

BTW, anybody know the dimensions of those Hagen Reactors?

[Starry]

Len,
Sorry about the confusion - I meant that the sponge filter and airstone/bell system isn't working for me. I don't need filtration, but I would like some water movement. That's pretty much the only reason I'm keeping the sponge filter in.

So what are you using now? AC filter, or the powerhead, or the combo?

OK, I just checked Big Al's - something called "plant gro CO2 system bubble counter" $20 CDN. That's by Hagen. Is that it? There's also the Aqualine CO2 reactor, which is definitely what we're talking about, but it's $50 CDN, and good for tanks up to 125 gal apparently, so I'm guessing it's pretty big. Or just really really efficient.

But why would I opt for passive diffusion when I can get a reactor and circulator in one. This way, I would still need a filter or powerhead. I don't like the idea of a stagnant tank, knowing my luck I'd grow some West Nile mosquitoes :)

OK, I really should be studying, so I better get back to that. Let me know what you think, and hopefully I'll do something about this after exams.

[djlen]

Ok, I think I got you. You're not happy with the combo you have and think with the low fish load you can do without a filter and want to go with a diffuser of some sort. One that will move water and diffuse. Correct?
For a 10 you'll need either the smallest power head or maybe a Fluval in-tank cannister you can find. It'll have to be small and be adjustable or your Platies are gonna think they're in a whirlpool and you'll gas off much of the CO2 you inject.
I'd look for the smallest AC powerhead they make(will be inexpensive) at Big Al's. They are adjustable and I like the ones I use in my big tanks.
I'm using an AC Mini in my 10 and want to get a passive reactor to inject 'cause the Mini is too inefficient. I don't recommend them for injection purposes.
That Hagen CO2 System includes a Bubble Counter which I think is also a reactor(and from what I hear, a good one). I think the 'System itself is a waste of money, but I can buy the Counter/Reactor(about $11 at Big Al's) separately. I think that will work well in my little 10gal. I just don't know the dimensions of it. I'm pretty sure it will fit in the tank, but would like to know before I buy it.
Len

[Starry]

Ok, I think I'll go with the small powerhead. I've never used one, I don't even know what they look like. But if you say so.....

[djlen]

A *SMALL* one that has an adjustable flow.
Here is a neat little set up that will give you some ideas:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/diy_reactor.htm

Len

[delmore]

Update on the Flourish Excel
I've been using it for about 5 weeks and I think that it is works well. I just have floating plants -- Wisteria and watersprite, and they are definitely growing much better than before. But then i've read that they can get access to CO2 from the atmosphere so don't need additional carbon/CO2...

[Robert H]

If all you have is floating plants, then using Excel is a waste of time.

The biggest problem with Excel is that you have to use it EVERY DAY in order for it to be affective. You cant just use it when you feel like it, or when you remember. You cant use it once or twice a week and expect to see some improvement.

This is why many people get tired of it after a short period of time. It is a pain to dose daily and the affect on the plants is less than spectacular.

[Cearbhaill]

I dunno- I found it easy to get into the habit of daily dosing. You feed everyday, right? Look at 'em at least once? Takes 10 seconds to put in the Excel.

[delmore]

It's still much easier (for me) than DIY Co2, plus I don't have to worry about OD's with the DIY CO2 (it CAN happen).

I'm going to keep using it. The floating plants have lots of roots and seam to be doing great.