blue-green bacteria

[fishfrenze]

Hello,
I've been "lurking" around these forums for a couple weeks now and have been learning alot! However, I need your help with a problem I have in my 30 gallon planted tank...it seems that blue-green bacteria has taken hold and is beginning to form "slime" layers on the gravel and driftwood. The tank has been set up for about a year, but has only contained plants for about 3 months (my first attempt :) ). I have recently started adding Flourish Excel and am wondering if this has anything to do with the blue-green outbreak?? Also, my Anacharis "melted" away over the course of a week (for what reason, I still can't determine) so now I only have a few small pieces growing. I'm wondering if the death of this plant gave the blue-green an opportunity to take hold since I heard the plant is thought to have "antibacterial" properties. I would be so grateful for any suggestions on how to irradicate the cyanobacteria and then prevent its return. Thank you in advance!

Melanie

Tank Specs:
30 gallon
3 watts/gallon pc fluorescent lighting
pH: 7.6
KH: 4 dH
NO3: 8-10 ppm
NH3: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
Fert. regime: Flourish (2.5 ml 2x/week), Flourish Phosphorus (0.75 ml 1x/week), Flourish Excel (2.5 ml 3-4x/week), and Leaf Zone (15 ml 1x/week).
**I will be playing around with DIY CO2 on my 72 gallon this weekend (no fish yet...still fishless cycling). If all goes well, I hope to add DIY CO2 to this 30 gallon!

[125gJoe]

Melanie needs help!

I wish I could give you the correct advice, but I'm no plant expert.. We have had a bout of cyno-bacteria and it's not fun. A 3 day total blackout (not a good word, oh well), may be needed. This will weaken your plants some, but they may come back just fine...

There are certain nutrients needed, in certain doses... Hope others can offer much more.

Looks like you don't have CO2 DIY or injection going on.

[Tempest]

Melanie-- When you refer to *fishless* cycling, do you mean that you have been adding ammonia?

[Timmain42]

My bet?

Tom Barr will say that you need to dose iron, Flourish Traces (a lot of it), Potassium and add CO2 to balance out your light level.

But that's just what I think Tom will say. Don't take any of that as gospel until you see it written in his own hand. :)

[plantbrain]

Do a search for BGA:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1561&highlight=BGA

Regards,
Tom Barr

[fishfrenze]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! So much information!!


Melanie-- When you refer to *fishless* cycling, do you mean that you have been adding ammonia?
Not quite...I've been adding fish food and allowing it to break down.


Looks like you don't have CO2 DIY or injection going on.
No, and I think this is the main thing limiting my tank. I was always reluctant b/c I was worried about pH crashes, reactor explosions, etc. But since I have an empty 72 gallon in its cycle, I figured this will be a good time to mess around with DIY. I think the next step will be adding it to my 30 gallon to get these plants off and running!

----------
I've regretted the choice of gravel as the substrate for the 30 gallon and have wanted to change it. Now with the BGA outbreak, I have more motivation to break down the tank and start over...this time with CO2 injection, KNO3 dosing, and increased trace dosing....like Tom Barr suggests. I'm actually thinking of gradually moving the fish and plants (after thorough sterilization of course) over to the 72 gallon when the cycle is complete. That will allow me to change out the substrate (I have a couple left-over bags of Profile) and play with DIY CO2 on the 30 gallon. Then I will gradually move the fish back. I know there are easier ways to rid myself of BGA, but this way I can take care of 2 things at once. With the new substrate, CO2 injection, and new fert. dosing, I can hopefully prevent BGA from ever returning!

Again, thanks for the wealth of information!

Melanie

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by plantbrain
Do a search for BGA:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1561&highlight=BGA

Regards,
Tom Barr

Eh, I was pretty close. :cool:

[kveeti]

Could the outbreak problem be the cycling method? I thought I read here that plants + fishless cycling does not work. Searching found a few threads, I did not go through them all but here is one:
http://64.191.28.50/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7304&highlight=fishless+cycle+plants

Also, clarification? First you said you have no fish then the last post stated I'm actually thinking of gradually moving the fish and plants (after thorough sterilization of course) over to the 72 gallon when the cycle is complete.

[plantbrain]

Plants don't need a cycled tank, why would they?

They remove the NH4 directly and the end product of the bacterial cycle, NO3, as well. Plus they remove PO4, K, CO2 etc and add O2.

Generally hair algae and green water will be caused if you have too much NH4.

The solution is the same though, grow the plants well and the algae does not grow.

I would suggest with 3w/gal of PC lighting on a 72 al tank to get CO2. There's no way Excel will add enough carbon for your plants at this light level/intensity. DIY is okay for smaller tanks but a large tank with nice lighting certainly warrants a gas CO2 system. And for the cost of a needle valve, you can add CO2 to the 30 gallon tank also.

Your nutrients will not matter until you address the CO2 issue, you will have bad algae till you do.
You can either lower the lighting level to about 1.8-2w/gal and use excel or get CO2 gas and keep the lighting level.
You can also lower the lighting level and add CO2. Lower light + CO2 yield some of the nicest results for folks generally, I'm a bit more advanced/experienced and use high light. Many new folks are frustrated with higher light.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[fishfrenze]

I'm talking about too many tanks at once here. :) I have 3 watts/gallon on my 30 gallon which has been set up and cycled for a year. That's the tank with the BGA problem. I also have a 72 gallon which is fish-less cycling. This tank will have 2.25 watts/gallon once I order the bulbs and get the hood set up. When I mentioned gradually moving the fish over, I meant from the 30 gallon established tank to the 72 gallon once its done cycling. Sorry for the confusion :)
I guess CO2 is my first priority here...I plan on working on that tomorrow and hopefully will be able to black-out the tank by next weekend (wincing and holding breath...I'll be ok :) ).

Melanie

[kveeti]

OK. Sorry, I was totally confused. Good luck.

[plantbrain]

Tank's don't matter, same procedure for BGA.
The mature cycled tank should be vacuumed in a 1/4 section and take that dirt/mulm/detritus from the gravel and add to the bottom 1/2 of the new substrate and a little bit to the filter on the new tank.
Now your new tank is completely cycled.

Why wait for bacteria to grow when you already have plenty of live bacteria? There was a day before fishless cycling when we added fish into a new tank that same day or one day later like I do.

This works on all types of tanks, not just planted. What's the difference between a cycled tank and a non cycled tank? Bacteria and little organic material, yes, the mulm/"dirt"/detritus in the bottom of an old filter or gravel bed.

So adding this adds precisely what a new tank lacks..........

Your tank's bacterial colony will adjust to whatever NH4 load that comes in from the fish waste and you will not be able to measure any NH4 if the plants are growing well/you add the fish semi slowly, a few at a time and don't over load your tank.
But dosing high levels of NH4 may create a large colony initially, but it'll not last unless you keep adding the NH4 or have lots and lots of fish added. That's not a good idea for the long term anyway. The bacterial colony will decrease as NH4/NO2 levels drop.

Also, something extremely simple, easier than testing and adding the NH4, a water change, 50% weekly will make about any tank NH4 free and certainly keep NO3 way down.

I still don't understand why anyone would ever add NH4 to their tanks except if you live beyond any LFS, possess no tank already, have no friends that have tanks in your area you can bum some mulm from etc. Personally I like to get on with it get the fish and plants in the tank. If folks like waiting 3 weeks, then they can if they want. It doesn't hurt, but it's hassle and an unecessary waste of time when such a simple solution is already present. The mulm method is free and has been used far more over the years and by many LFS's than fishless cycling ever will be.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[fishfrenze]

The mulm method is free and has been used far more over the years and by many LFS's than fishless cycling ever will be.
Tom - You are a genius! :) I would be reluctant to take the mulm from the BGA tank...would I be risking addition to the new tank? I have 3 other tanks to choose from anyways that are without problems. I've been a member of another forum for about a year...I feel like I've learned more here in just a couple weeks! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience!

[plantbrain]

The whole fishless cycling "rage" really is a silly thing.
Folks somehow managed back in the "dark ages":)
The whole topic irks me. Causes a good deal of unneeded problems. A simple habit of doing a water changes solves more issues and is much simpler to explain.

It has no place in any planted tank. The plants have bacteria on their roots etc and when growing well remove all the NH4.
So even if you don't live near a LFS/Have a tank you can get mulm from/have no friends with tanks nearby, you still have no excuse for using fishless cycling.

BGA is transmitted via the air. So unless you have sterile air etc, it's in all your tanks after a month or two. I'd use mulm from any healthy/old tank with a good fish load etc. I would not add it if I could help it though, but it will be on the bottom of the gravel where there is no light etc. But...........algae is always present......NOT allowing conditions that let it thrive is the key, which is when the plants don't grow well, so grow the plants well and then you don't have algae issues.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Pink Pat]

BGA is really cyanobacteria and not an algae at all. Since it is bacterial it can be killed with an application of erythromycin.

Sold as Marycyn or Marycyn II at most LFS's, a single application is often all that it necessary. My experience is that it does not have a detremental effect on the 'cycle' of an aquarium.

HTH

PP

[fishfrenze]

I have read about using antibiotics for BGA (actually BGB :) ), but am reluctant to use them just because I try to avoid adding any meds to my tank. I would use it if the other methods didn't work though.
I did get CO2 going on my 72 gallon today. Within an hour it was producing about 1/2 bubble/second. It's only been going for about 3 hours now and its hard to tell if I have a difference yet in pH. Before CO2 it was 7.6. My test kit goes from 7.2 to 7.6 and right now the color looks a little lighter than before but not 7.2...maybe 7.5. I'll test again tomorrow morning.
I often read about % of CO2 dissolved. How do people determine this? I understand that you can determine the amount of CO2 in the water by testing for pH and KH, but how do you determine how efficient your CO2 system is?

Melanie

[plantbrain]

%efficiency perhaps.

When all the gas is being dissolved into solution is likely what is being stated.

For a 72 gal, about 2 bubble sec is a good starting point. Adjust to the pH/KH table and that's all you need to deal with.

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml

So for your tank at a KH of 4, shoot for a pH of 6.6 for 30ppm.
20-30ppm is good.

Keep adding more CO2 till you get in this range.
Make sure the pH is 6.6-6.8 the ENTIRE lighting period. Never higher than 6.8 when the lights are on.

I tend to error on the higher side since the KH and pH kits can be off a little and generally this range of CO2 is not harmful to fish with healthy growing plants(these produce lots of O2).
Being off by 0.2pH units can drop the CO2 level down 10ppm etc also, similar issue with KH. KH measurements are easier generally and more reliable. I use a good pH monitor with a probe to get a good pH reading and I don't have to test since it's a digital read out etc, just flip a switch.

Erythromycin does indeed work but........it cost X amount of $$ for treatment of a large tank x 5 days.
Blackout cost = 0.00$ and takes three days and there's no shipping/travel related cost.

As far as the name game, if you want to argue it should be called something then talk specifically, genus name is Oscillitoria, non heterocyst forming filamentous colonial. Phycologist have both in the past and the present done the work on this group and few microbiologist study Cyanophyta/bacteria. It's a rather silly name game. Some folks concern themselves with these issues, be my guest. Cyanophyta/bacteria is radically different than other bacteria such as structually(possesses thylakloids), biochemically and specialization, eg heterocyst/chain forming etc. I'd say they are not really bacteria either..........

I study BGA's, and am quite good at FW BGA identification/biochemistry. We have no issue amongst ourselves with this name or others, we use the specific name when we want to be less mundane.

The three genera you might encounter, Oscillitoria(most common, in all tank samples from all over the world), Phormidium, rare in one very filthy tank(common in nature), and Anabeana in Azolla the only heterocyst forming BGA in aquariums(not free living).

Regards,
Tom Barr

[fishfrenze]

Tom,
I'm proud to say that I actually knew what you were talking about in that last post. :) I was a teaching assistant in Introductory Botany last semester (I'm a plant bio grad student) and we briefly touched on cyanobacteria. We only looked at Anabaena though (my students liked to call it "Anna Banana"). I should bring the BGA from my tank to the lab and look at it under the microscope. :)
I went lightly on the yeast for this first time. I guess I will either have to add more yeast or add another bottle as I am counting too few bubbles. At any rate, I'm just happy to actually be seeing bubbles! :)

Melanie

[plantbrain]

Oh you poor person you.
Algae is often one class period at best.
Fungi is often equally ignored.

But those folks going into those fields always get good jobs in their fields.....

Molecular or ecology plant science?
I'm both+Environmental Engineering from the past.
Stick with that class if you can each semester you can get it/if it's offered, it's fun. I teach Diversity(3 classes) so I cover every living organisim 3x a semester. Botany in the summer.

FWIW, Oscillitoria is easy to find in the gravel along the front of your tank. It does not fix N2(The species in your tank anyway, other do but if they do, they will have heterocyst present). Diazeotrophic bacteria(N2 fixers-there's a 5$ word) are well regarded in plant bio. Agricultural growth without having to add nitrogen ferts is a hot topic and there's often good grants for studies in this area in the molecular area. There are many BGA that live in the soils and the genus Oscillitoria is often the first colonizer after a fire, volcanic eruption eg Mt St Helens appearing in about 20-30days.
My research centers in FW clear springs full of aquatic plants/fish with algal epiphyte recruitment on various substrates(Periphyton). I also get to teach/work on marine macro algae in the Keys 4 times a year. Diving on reef and getting paid is a good thing.

Algae grows everywhere(air, land, sea, snow), so you can pick where you want to study. They are also very useful for both the ecology, systematics+evolution and biochemical plant approaches. Much of the basic plant research was/is done with algae.
The EPA has taken a greater interest in BGA's for lake, spring and stream monitoring as well.

I would greatly encourage you(anyone) to look at the various species under the scope.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[fishfrenze]

Tom,
Your research sounds very interesting! You're right...diving in the Keys isn't such a bad thing. :)
Unfortunately there isn't alot of focus on algae...besides the one class period in Botany, there are only classes in macroalgae offered for the students. Luckily we do still teach a lab about fungi in the introductory classes...I've heard of classes that completely ignore it due to the fact that its non-photosynthetic and "doesn't belong in a Botany class." The focus is always on "higher" plants.
I study with a plant breeder (tradional -- natural selection) who works with squash, pumpkins, melons, gourds (cucurbits). Although, I am also interested in the molecular aspect of plant biology so I am taking as many molecular classes as I can and doing a special project on the side (non-thesis related).
BTW, great info about Oscillitoria!
I hope to get in the lab later this week to check out the BGA!

Melanie