What would cause my plants to do this?

[Geeky1]

My personal tank is a 10g, and I've always kept live plants in it. Initially it had 2 40w incandescents to light it, but those began to melt the hood, so I had to switch to 25w bulbs. Since then, I've gone to a single 18" fluorescent. Anyhow, for some reason, whenever I buy plants, they generally last about a month. The bunch plants start dropping leaves and I end up with a stem 10" long with 2" of healthy foliage on the end... The only thing that's survived for any length of time are java fern, java moss, and some other rooted plants that I can't recall the exact name of- they're either swords or crypts, or both... All I know is they have big, ovate leaves, and the plants are about 5" tall and 6" across. They have no bulbs, so they're not apongentons (sp?) but I don't know what they are... Oh, I had Tiger Lilies in it for a while, and they did great.

I'm inclined to think this is a lack of light, as I've been from an UGF + gravel + power filter to just gravel and the power filter, to fluorite and the power filter, and back to the ugf + gravel + power filter, and I've had the problem with all of those setups. The fish in the tank vary, but I've had basically everything but tetras and rainbowfish in it (altho I did just buy some celebes and dwarf rainbows last night...)

Could it be anything other than a lack of light?

[PumaWard]

How hard is your water?

Some plants have difficulty in hard water... IME, my stem plants didn't lose leaves in too little light, they just lost there vibrant color. However, it does seem that if you have nothing eating these plants, that low light could be the culprit of them dropping leaves.

You might want to wait for more knowledgeable people in this area though, I'm probably way off base :D

[Geeky1]

Honestly? I have no idea how hard my water is. I'm one of those people that does this by the seat of their pants, so to speak. I haven't tested any of my water parameters in at least 6 months, probably longer. Takes too much effort. All I can tell you is that I've had discus in the tank and they were dead easy to keep. However, I think my LFS mentioned that their water is pretty hard. On the other hand, they may very well be getting different water than I am, because I'm in a different city...

I suppose my Plec could have been eating them, but why would it only eat the bunch plants (e.g. cabomba) and why only up to the top 2" or so of the plant?

[PumaWard]

Have you had any dwarf gourami in there?

I had a pair that completely eradicated all feathery leafed plants in one of my tanks.

[Geeky1]

At one point I had one, but it's long gone, and the plants are still having problems...

[MrGoodbytes]

I have really hard water and have had no significant signs of problems in that area with my plants losing leaves.

It sounds a lot like low light to me because feathery plants like cabomba do best with 3WPG and up. I had a pleco before and it never ate my stem plants to my knowledge.

Try adding another flourescent tube or maybe a DIY compact flourescent fixture with something like 2 13W bulbs.

Hope this helps.

Graeme

[djlen]

Geeky, it doesn't sound to me as though you have a lighting issue here. I have a 10gal. hospital tank with a little 15w tube over it and can grow just about anything under it.
Unless I misunderstood your post, you probably have 1.5 watts as well. That should be plenty of light, in a 10 to grow many low to medium light plants including many stem plants.
You need to get yourself the basic test kits so as to find out your water parameters. Knowing your pH,gH,kH, as well as whether you have any ammonia, nitrites, and your nitrate level would be of much help in diagnosing your problem.
How often do you do water changes? Do you fertilize at all?

Len

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by Geeky1
I'm one of those people that does this by the seat of their pants, so to speak. I haven't tested any of my water parameters in at least 6 months, probably longer. Takes too much effort....

Okay, this scares me. I hope you'll take the time if you're going to have a public aquarium that's packed full of live plants that's almost 3' deep.... As I have learned, a tank that big takes a lot of attention for the first few months.

But @ 10g, I have no idea. Listen to Len, Len am smart.

[Geeky1]

Oh for the big tank, no I'm going to be somewhat more meticulous. I have no experience with a tank that size, so it's going to be interesting...

How often do I do water changes? Anywhere between 1 and 4 times per month, 2 gallons at a time.

I don't fertilize with anything... As for the water quality, in general it's pretty good (I think) because whenever I get a fish that dies within the 7 day period the LFS guarantees it for and I take it in to have it exchanged, the water always tests fine- litte/no ammonia, little/no nitrate, negligible nitrite...

The pH is somewhere in the vicinity of 7.0, as that's what the water I fill it with is, but you know, it's going to vary somewhat. I'll probably pick up a test kit (since the reagents on mine are all expired anyhow...) and test it, but right now the tank is torn up- it's sitting in the laundry room full of a 2% bleach solution (fish in bucket, gravel gone, fluorite in another bucket) because I'm trying the fluorite again. I have to stop to pick up some peat (I'm going to give plantbrain's suggestions a try on my tank too) on my way home, so I'll try to get a test kit then...

[anonapersona]

I almost hate to mention this, because if you refuse to do the work involved you're just going to kill fish, but the problem you might be having could be related to CO2.

Most of the plants you can buy for an aquarium are actuallly marginal or emersed plants, they grow with their roots in the water and can do well or at least tolerate being under water. The problem is that they need Co2. You remember from 5th grade science that plants take in CO2 and give off Oxygen. Plants in mud get a lot of CO2 from the billions of bacteria per gram of mud working on decomposing crud. In our nice clean tanks, where we don't like the skunky smell of decomposing mud, we don't have that sort of CO2 level unless you work at adding it. For the 10 gallon tank, the Hagen/Nutrafin CO2 unit is the easiest. Over 20 gallons, you need either DIY or pressurized CO2.

Light, Co2, fertilizers.

Start with the light, get it up to 2.0 watts per gallon if you can. There are ushaped flourescent tubes that screw into the incandescent hoods that grow nice plants. see Wal-Mart.

Then get a Hagen CO2 system, $17 online or $30 in the local store.

Then get some basic plant food made for aquariums.

Invest in a real test kit, include nitrate. Then use it -- weekly, while you are doing a 30 to 50% water change.

If you don't want to do the work, get plastic plants and plastic floating fish. There are some that run on batteries.

But really, planted tanks are probably harder than fish only tanks. If you haven't done a good job with the small tank, why even invest the big bucks in a bigger tank? You're going to spend something like $10 to $30 per gallon to set up a new planted tank.

Are you really interested enough to do it?

[djlen]

I agree with annonapersona almost completely.
I don't think you need CO2. You can buy Flourish Carbon at the LFS along with the other Flourish nutrients like Potassium,Nitrates,Phosphorous and regular Flourish for Traces. In a 10 all of these should last you quite a while if you stay with your 1.5 watts/gal.
You're not being successful with the plants, probably because of lack of nutrition and infrequent water changes. Not doing weekly water changes is also rough on the fish. It should only take you 1/2hr. a week to change water and dose your plants properly. Pick up the necessary test kits and monitor your water parameters. This is not very complicated.
Give it a shot. I think you'll be surprised at the difference it can make.
Len

[Geeky1]

I almost hate to mention this, because if you refuse to do the work involved you're just going to kill fish, but the problem you might be having could be related to CO2.

Most of the plants you can buy for an aquarium are actuallly marginal or emersed plants, they grow with their roots in the water and can do well or at least tolerate being under water. The problem is that they need Co2. You remember from 5th grade science that plants take in CO2 and give off Oxygen. Plants in mud get a lot of CO2 from the billions of bacteria per gram of mud working on decomposing crud. In our nice clean tanks, where we don't like the skunky smell of decomposing mud, we don't have that sort of CO2 level unless you work at adding it. For the 10 gallon tank, the Hagen/Nutrafin CO2 unit is the easiest. Over 20 gallons, you need either DIY or pressurized CO2.

Light, Co2, fertilizers.

Start with the light, get it up to 2.0 watts per gallon if you can. There are ushaped flourescent tubes that screw into the incandescent hoods that grow nice plants. see Wal-Mart.


Got it. Ordered a CS 20" 28w Aqualight PC strip light from Big Al's on Monday. Should be here on Friday or Monday.


Then get a Hagen CO2 system, $17 online or $30 in the local store.

Ordered it at the same time.


Then get some basic plant food made for aquariums.

Ditto


Invest in a real test kit, include nitrate. Then use it -- weekly, while you are doing a 30 to 50% water change.

Bought one today

If you don't want to do the work, get plastic plants and plastic floating fish. There are some that run on batteries.

:rolleyes: :)


But really, planted tanks are probably harder than fish only tanks. If you haven't done a good job with the small tank, why even invest the big bucks in a bigger tank? You're going to spend something like $10 to $30 per gallon to set up a new planted tank.

Are you really interested enough to do it?

Define "good job". I will admit that I don't (generally) follow the "rules" but I've never had a problem keeping any fish I wanted in there. I actually cycled the tank with Discus one time because I got a really good deal on some baby turquoise and I had nowhere else to put them. The discus not only survived, but did extremely well. I sold them when they got to about 3" in diameter. I've had baby angels in there, as well as various barbs and livebearers. When I do have to have the water tested (like when a new fish doesn't survive) it always checks out fine, with minimal to no ammonia, nitrate or nitrite. The reason I don't check it regularly is because I don't need to- after the tank is established, unless something major (pump failure) happens, it's basically a non-issue. When I was just starting with aquariums I caught a bunch of threespine sticklebacks. Out of the dozen or so I had, only one adapted to flake food- the other 11 died. However, that one went into a one gallon hex aquarium with a ugf, 1/2" of gravel, some hornwort, and the water I caught it in. The reason I didn't use fresh water is because I wasn't sure of the chemistry of the water it was in, and I didn't want to kill it. That fish started at 1" and over the course of 2 years, grew to 3". It never, ever, ever had a water change- the tank was topped off from time to time, but it never had a water change. The fish never got sick, always ate well, and died from old age. Given enough time, the last stage of the nitrogen cycle will take place, and the nitrates will be used by the plants, and will outgas as nitrogen gas. In a balanced system, water changes are unneccesary.

But, I'll try the more conventional method and see what happens. Interestingly enough, the best tanks I had were the ones I set up before I knew much about what I was doing. Never had a problem growing plants (or fish) in my first few tank setups...

[anonapersona]

Sorry for the slam, sounds like you are more well-versed than it seemed originally. My apologies.

anona, not usually one to throw stones

[Geeky1]

No problem. I admit that my approach is a bit, err... unconventional, to say the least, but so far, it's worked great- for everything but plants. :)

[OrionGirl]

I don't have much luck with many stem plants--though it's getting better. In one tank, I know it's due to fish chomping on the leaves. The new growth was snapped up so quickly, and the old growth was damaged during transport and died off. End of plant! In a recent setup, I've had some good luck with the cambomba (it's only been a month, but that's longer than previous attempts) and think that it's because other efforts were in a tank with a UGF. Plenty of mulm, but too much oxygen at the roots.

In your tank, what may be the problem is the hardness has been depleted, and never 'renewed' so to speak via water changes. *Edited for clarity* With regular water changes, these levels fluctuate less, and many plants respond better to stability. Crypts are a good example--mine will lose leaves quickly after a water change if the tank went too long without one.