almost 60 days into cycle

[liquafaction]

I am almost 60 days into my cycle. In the last 3 days, my water has gotten so cloudy that you almost cannot see through the water from fron to back (I think 20 inches). I have had spells of slighty cloudy, clear, slightly cloudy, clear............, and now I would say it looks like watered down milk. I did do a 20% water change about 9 days ago, because the amonia levels stayed at 4ppm for so long. I checked the day after the water change, and amonia levels were between 2 and 3 ppm. I checked the amonia last night, and amonia was at .50 ppm. I am still at .25 ppm on nitrites, and 0 on nitrates.

Is this normal for the water to be so cloudy?

Can I expect to see some changes hopefully in the next week?

I am still paranoid about my sand base. I did use playsand, but was not able to use either of the two brands recomended in here.

thanks for the info guys.

[Guy W]

Is it cloudy because the sand got blown around perhaps? Otherwise it is just cloudy it could be a bacteria bloom, but it seems that after 60 days you should not be experiencing that.

The fact that the cycle took so long is also strange. I've never heard of more than 45 days.

Guy

[kreblak]

My first cycle took every bit of 9 weeks. My water never got cloudy, though, aside from my first two bacteria blooms. Make sure your powerheads aren't stirring up too much sand, and if they are, aim them elsewhere.

[liquafaction]

the power heads are not srirring up any sand. This has me baffled, now my amonia levels are increaseing again, and the water is starting to clear up.

[kreblak]

What do you have in the tank? I assume you are fishlessly cycling. If you added a new shrimp or some live rock anything like that, then that would account for the ammonia spike. What is the tank size?

[OrionGirl]

The free-floating bacteria that cause cloudy water are not the same as the bacteria that are nitrifiers. They are not breaking down ammonia or nitrites, but are feeding on some other food source.

There is not predetermined time for a tank to reach the balance between bacteria populations and food sources. Due to the variables that differ between tanks (something as minor as pH, salinity, temp, etc) make it impossible to determine precisely why your tank is taking longer to cycle. It's possible that the pH has been shifting, which impairs the bacteria. If your tank has had temp spikes, this too could be causing problems.

Since you are not using an aragonite based sand, I would check the alkalinity and pH--make sure they are within range. If not, adding some buffer in the form of a baggie of crushed coral, or a product like kalkwasser may help. The nitrifiers are strongly influenced by pH, so keeping it stable is important.

[liquafaction]

I checked my ph after reading this last night, and it is way off scale...9.0 according to my test kit. I did not realize that ph was that important during a cycle, so I have not been keeping up with it. Where would I get a baggie of crushed coral, the LFS.

I have also had temp ranging lately from 79 to 84. I was under the impression that was O.K., so have not been trying to control that either.

When you say arogonite based sand does this not include play sand? I do not have the brown patches of (algae?) that a lot of you guys have in your pictures as of now.

Did I mess up? should I start over, or see what plays out?

I did do a fishless cycle (shrimp), and the tank is 100 gal.

[OrionGirl]

Aragonite sand is calcium based, similar to crushed coral. As the pH dips, it dissolves the sand a bit, which buffers the tank and stabilizes the pH. There are quite a bit of studies that indicate high pH can inhibit the bacteria. Rather than adding pH, you may need to bring your pH down--8.0-8.4 is usually the target level for a SW tank. Check the levels of the water you use to make the SW, and if it's lower, do some water changes on the tank. Since you have such high levels of ammonia, this won't hurt the cycle process at all, and should help stabilize the pH enough to benefit the bacteria. Check the water you use for topoffs, as well. What salinity are you at?

Play sand other than Old Kastle and Southdown are usually silica based, which is inert at most pH levels (it will begin breaking down at extremely low pH <3.0).

Bacteria are like fish--their metabolism is temperature driven. Swings can inhibit thier production, and cooler temps will definitely slow them down. I'd aim to keep the tank around 78-80. It doesn't sound as though your temp has dropped enough to really cause a problem though, so focusing on the pH will probably be more productive.

I wouldn't start over--just tweak a bit to see if you can get the conditions right for happy bacteria. It's all about stability.

[liquafaction]

The ph of fresh tap water for me is 6.0

The needle of my hydrometer falls between 1.023 and 1.024

So if I get crushed coraline from my LFS, then this should help?

Thanks again for your help

Oh, and I used quickrete play sand, if this helps.

As a silica based sand, I wonder if you could use pool filter sand?

[OrionGirl]

Crushed coral RAISES pH. Not what you need. I would try mixing up some saltwater, and testing it. With such a low tap water pH, the salt mix should just bring it up to the 8.1 area, maybe even lower. So, I would suspect that something within the tank--or any other chemicals in use?--is raising your pH to this level.

[liquafaction]

Crushed coral RAISES pH............ I fallow now

I am not using any other chemicals at all.

The first time I did a SW mix, my PH came out perfect reading the bucket on the mix, it stated that it would bring your ph up to the right level. I checked my ph on a regular bases for the first month (maybe 4 or 5 times in that period), and it never fluxuated, so I figured I was wasting my time keeping up with ph levels untill I started adding fish and rock to the tank.

I did my first water change (because amonia stayed so high for so long), and never tested my water at all. When I mixed my salt water, I used warm tap water, so I would not have to wait for the temp to come up on cold tap water. I also wanted to see if warm water water would mix the salt any faster. When I tested my ph in my tap water last night, I tested the water warm (just to see if my hot water heater may have any affect on ph).

So, You think I should do another 20% water change?
This will abviously bring my Amonia levels down even more, which last I checked they had increses from .50 to 1.0. I am still showing .25 on nitrites. If the amonia drops to s certain level, is there a point that nitrification stops?

I guess my main question is: If I do a water change to bring ph down, then this will cause a change in amonia, and since nitrification has not accured in my tank yet , am I essentially chasing my tail?

[OrionGirl]

I would do the water change.

Ammonia being detectable is not needed for nitrites. The two are independent in some ways. If ammonia drops to an undetectable level, what it means is that the supply of ammonia is adequate for the bacteria population present, not that there is no ammonia. These bacteria will keep producing nitrites, and the bacteria that consume nitrites will keep reproducing to catch up with the available food. This is always happening in our tanks--the "cycle" is not a one time event, but rather an ongoing process that is usually invisible to us, simply because we don't detect the toxins.

Right now, you most likely have a sizable colony of ammonia consuming bacteria, and it's just a matter of getting both colonies to their needed size. If there is still any shrimp decaying, you could remove it, and test in 2 days--I bet you would have no ammonia and no nitrites. But, you would need to add fish right away to avoid starving the colonies.

[liquafaction]

The shrimp finished decaying about 3 weeks ago.

I am going to mix up some Salt water, check out its ph, then I will post what I find.

If the ph of my salt mixture is 8.2, and my existing water is 9, seems to me the ph would come up above 8.2

[liquafaction]

okay, I got my ph down to about 8.4 ish. The color of my water (tested) does not really go with any of the colors on the chart, but it is a little more blue than the 8.2 mark, and way more green than the 9.0 mark.

I am using Dry Tab master test kit.

What I did was take out a few gallons of Salt Water in my tank, and just add fresh water. I figured it would not hurt to drop the salinity anyway, since it was above 1.023.

I guess we will see what this does.

[wayne]

I can assure you I'd never, never use warm water from the tap for any of my tanks. Unless you have a very weird piping system in your house, hot water will be heated and sit in a hotwater tank for some hours, and somewhere in there there is some copper. No way do you want leached copper getting into your tank, ever.
If I hold up a glass of hot tap water and cold tap water side by side I can see a difference in gas bubbles, clearness and so on. It's been this way in every house I've lived in and I'm convinced not to use hot tap water.

[liquafaction]

I am not trying to argue with you, I do see your point. I live in the south in the U.S., and our building codes differ from others. Not to mention that I live out of the city limits on big enough acrage that I do not have to fallow most building codes. 100% of my plumbing is p.v.c. including the casing into my well. The only thing that I am not sure of is the age of the water heater. If it is new enough, it will be stainless, otherwise it will be galvanized steel. I would think that the galvanized steel would be toxic to a cetain degree (I know the fumes it puts of when you cut or weld it are).

I do admit that I was not thinking when I used warm water, as a mater of fact I thought I was being dang clever. Now I think I made a mistake, but that wich does not kill us, makes us stronger............lol. I would have to mesure the temp of my tap water, but I would be willing to bet it is in the uper 50's. I know it takes a water bed about 4 days to heat up just so you can stand it.

[BrianH]

Why not use a small tank heater in your mixing bucket to bring the fresh ASW up to tank temperature? This way you use cold tap water and remove the possibility of contamination from the hot water heater.

Brian

[liquafaction]

I will next time, I was just commenting on the mistake I may have made.

[dreeves]

What all do you have in your tank as far as live things and/or dead things?

[liquafaction]

nothing, I am cycling..... there was shrimp for a fishless cycle, but now they have rotted away.

I have sand, water, powerheads.

I am not running lights, or skimmer

[wayne]

You're not lucky are you.

If I was you, I'd pretty much start again. I'd get the temps under control, get the tank with sand and all fresh water and put in some live rock. A lot would be nice, but even a few pounds would help ship in the biofilter bacteria. Hopefully you won't get too much die off, but at least you'll be transferring in a full suite of filter bacteria in the rock. Then I'd see what happens, and hopefully it'll go ok. Oldee stylee (waiting for bacteria spores to blow in) cycling is just too **** slow for me

[liquafaction]

Belive me, I have zero patience. I have always wanted a salt water tank, but everyone always talked me out of it. I decided to suck it up and give it a try. Now that I have been this far into it with no reward, I am twice a determind to make this happen. I am going to give it till this weekend, and If I do not get any results, I am starting from scratch. I have built an awsome floor to ceiling oak cabinet, purchased lights, powerheads, 2 test kits, skimmer, salt, heater........... and as you guys know, the list goes on. By Christmas, I will have fish, or a bonfire....lol.

[kreblak]

If this makes you feel any better, I am currently cycling a 10 gallon tank that I intend to house my intrepid dottyback in going forward. I have been cycling for 12 weeks and 4 days. The tank is empty save for a 3 inch DSB, heater, powerhead, and the remnants of a rotting shrimp. The tank stands as thus:

Ammonia = 5 ppm
Nitrates = < 3 ppm
Temperature = 79*
Salinity = 1.024
Ph = 8.3

I'm going on 90 days here and I've got readings indicative of being two weeks deep into the cycle. I don't know what the problem is, I'm just waiting it out. I think maybe I put too large a shrimp in the tank....it was huge when I started, and nearly three months later it is still present. Smaller, but still there!

[liquafaction]

that does make me feel better. With some of the knowledge I have from this first try, I want to change a few things for the second try. I want to make my sump big enough to house my skimmer, so It is not external. A few small things like that.

[wayne]

Wouldn't it save an awful lot of time and effort to just put in a small piece of live rock of any quality to supply a set of bacteria rather than hanging around waiting for 3 months!

[kreblak]

Yes, it would, Wayne. Unfortunately for my 10 gallon tank, I can't find any LR small enough to aqauscape with. My LFS has a couple of 5 lb chunks, but that is still pretty large for this little tank.

[liquafaction]

can you not take a hammer after it?

[kreblak]

Is suppose I could hammer it into smaller chunks, but the logistics of splitting live rock are many. You'd have to do it quickly, and the rock would have to remain wet. Otherwise you kill off the nirtifying bacteria. Then the issue of what container would sturdy enough to do it in? You have to keep it in saltwater, whilst pounding it with a hammer. An aquarium would crack in two.

[liquafaction]

go get a cheap air chisel from wall mart (or equivilent) hold it in the water, and chisel it down. I have used an air drill in the water, and it last for a while, long enough to build a boat house.

[kreblak]

That's not a bad idea. I might trying cracking up those 5 pounders.

[liquafaction]

WOW!, you mean I may have been able to help a veteran..............lol

I pulled my tank down last night to recycle, and redo a few things in it. I found that where my plumbing was under the sand, the sand was black and smelly (rotten eggish). I used pvc pluming under the dsb, to get water movement in different places (above the sand). Well, in more detail, I built some water fans out of PVC pipe. I would heat the PVC up with a heat gun, stuck a small flat washer in the (hot flimsy) PVC, and squashed it with a vice. This kept the pinch almost perfect, and would give a perfect fan of water movement. This would also keep pressure built up so it would blow water pretty good. I criss crossed every other fan so they would blow into each other at perp. angles. This gave some good water movement. Anyway, I did all of this plumbing, (2 fans on each end, and 3 in front and back) and then coverd the plumbing with sand. Was it a mistake to put this plumbing under the sand like this? I read a page yesterday where that (egg) smell was a poison (cant remeber the name off the top of my head) The article did go on to say that even being able to smell that smell was not a lethal enough dose to hurt marine life. I wonder if it was lethal enough to keep any bacteria from growing in my "fresh" sand bed.

[liquafaction]

oh yea, one thing to consider on that air chisel is that they oil them down pretty good, so I would make sure to get all that oil off before I went to sticking it in something important

[wayne]

Kreblak - No, do the breaking out of water. The rock was certainly flown 'dry' before and survived that. Also when you pull the rock out, it doesn't become 'magically' 00% dry - there's still water in the pores, plus a thin partial layer. Also , how long do you think this will tank - minutes, hours,days? This will not be a problem you think it will. If you're quick and careful you can minimise non microscopic life dieoff as well.
Liquifaction - I'm not sure what's going on in your sand bed? How fine, how deep?

[liquafaction]

4" deep sand bed,

It is kind of funny that people always ask about courseness of sand. I understand why people ask, its just how to describe is the difficulty. I have read in here that people used quickrete playsand. I used quickrete during this cycle (came in a white bag w/blue lettering). I would describe this sand as about 2/3 the size of salt granules (if you role it around in your fingers, you really cannot feel the edges of the sand) I found out that quickrete also makes playsand that comes in a clear bag w/green writting. This sand ranges from 2x salt size to about half crushed coral size. (who would put there kids in a gravel bed...lol). I am going to use "Mystic" swimming pool filter sand for this second try at a cycle. This sand is about salt to 1 1/2 salt granule size. It appers to be about the same coursness of the "live sand" you get from the LFS.

[kreblak]

Liquafaction, what are your water parameters right now? You may have encountered the problem I did, in that my DSB was completely colonized, there was just too much ammonia production coming off of that shrimp.

My readings were a constant ammonia = 3 ppm and nitrites = 0. I have removed the shrimp now, as the tank has been cycled. The ammonia readings just kept throwing me for the longest time.

[liquafaction]

Well,
after I purchased the other tank, I took this one down. I wanted to make a little larger sump to house my skimmer and power heads. I want to put a small sump at the other side to house power heads. I also wanted to get those jacuzzi jet sockets for controling water movement and install those on the side of the sump walls.

Here is the weird thing to me. The shrimp have been totally decentagrated for about the last 4-6 weeks, so how did my amonia levels keep rising? After water change it was .25, then rose to .50, then right before I took it down, it was 1 ppm . I would check water parameters every 4 days to see what was going on. I never had nitrites to speek of .25, never had nitrates at all.

The only thing That I was running was 4 powerheads.

I had a filter running the first week of cycling. I removed the filter because my understanding was that was the use in having a sand bed (a filter). The sand bed would house the bacteria instead of the filter.

I ran a protein skimmer for a few hours every now and then. I ran that because I was trying to find a good location for it. I had it externally mounted on a shelf above the tank. I would spend hours plumbing, and setting it up, then run it to see how it worked, then try it again a few days later.


Oh, by the way, I am glad your tank cycled for you