do pandas really stay pandas?

[stripes556]

I've seen lots of these fish being advertised recently, usually panda orandas or panda telescopes, which usually have a white body color with black fins, and possibly some black on the body as well; I've even see some orange-bodied fish with black tips similarly advertised.

I thought this was just a color phase between being a dark juvenile and a white (or orange) adult. Does anyone have one of these new "pandas" that has retained the panda pattern for more than a few months after purchase?

I don't have one, nor am I in the market for one (spot and nameless continue to be hale and hearty and are already overlarge for their tank!), but I'm just curious.

[Aderynglas]

Hi Stripes,

I have never seen a panda moor retain colour for any appreciable length of time. I have had Black Moors change from deepest velvet Black to Black/Orange and then go completely orange.
I have had Blue fantails lose colour in patches so that they are patched white and blue (blue pandas) and then turn completely white (yuk) but never have I seen a patched goldfish stay that way - except for calico fish which tend to keep their colour patches although the depth and size of the patches change. White Ryukins with small orange patches often turn almost completely orange eventually.

IMHO the panda goldfish are nothing more than an expensive money spinner.

Hope this sheds some light. :)

Regards
Dill

[stripes556]

That's what I would expect, but retailers are selling these as a "new strain" recently developed by asian breeders. I wonder if there is something new under the sun, or if they're perfected raising conditions so they can just get a large batch of young fish to color out in sync--resulting in a large group of "pandas" for sale, before they finish their color change.

[avoxo]

Hello stripes556, I agree with the ideal conditions theory. Most goldfish if not all have been breed in ideal conditions. They are in large outdoor ponds in the full sun. They are fed fresh or live foods, plus they have live algae or any other thing that is in the pond to munch on all day. These conditions will produce “ideal” goldfish. Then they are then harvested and thrown into 5-30 gallon tanks with artificial lighting and are lightly fed highly processed food. They are going to change no matter what.

Even goldfish that do not have any black change, their colors are not as vivid or as intense over time. It would be nice that they can come up with a new strain that would not lose their color but we must enjoy them for what they are or become.

[blitzen25bm]

spots can come and go. Ive had Kois that were black and orange spotted and in a few months all the orange went away. you can aways add hornward or float some duckweed or something in the awuarium for them to eat those plants are usally pretty cheap.

[Melfisha]

Well, having not read this thread before I got two super-cute little butterfly tail pandas not so long ago. But I only paid 6.99 each! I kind of knew from another discussion of goldfish color that they probably wouldn't stay black and white, but for now they are pandas and by the time they change they will be established pets and I will love them for who they are - not just for their looks :) if I remember I will update on if color changes.

I've been looking around on the web and I suspect if you paid a lot of money to someone from China you could get true blues, blacks and pandas that would keep their color. It's about lineage... (I say vaugely, knowing nothing about breeding goldfish) but I feel sure it CAN be done because I've seen gorgeous images of adult fish that are those colors.

So is it true that better light and fresh food will help them keep the black/white colors? I know genetics is the ultimate determination, but if there is anything I can do to help them stay black/white I will do it. Let me know if you have any advice.

Many Thanks

Melissa

http://homepage.mac.com/melissa_morris/fish/fish.jpg

[fantail]

I bought a panda oranda and his black has nearly all gone now. I think the panda telescope is more stable in colour.

[Stargazer]

I think the Panda is like alot of other animals , a quality breeding issue.
If you truly love the black and white ( broken/spotted/patched) pattern of the Panda and .If you purchase a young fish from a store or anything else other then the breeder.You cannot see what is in the making ,Is it a Quality Panda (expected to keep most of its color patchs) and nice conformation or for quantity... just for the money making?
I have seen beautiful Panda's , one even won the top prize in a Koi and Goldfish show. So I kinda think its a breeding issue
Stargazer

[ramp005]

Hi all,

As a goldfish lover and retail saler of fish for over 15 years now, living in Belgium (Europe) I can say the following from experiance.
The panda color in goldfish is fairly new, only fixed existing for 5 years now in the telescope and 3 years for the Oranda (bred in trough the moore).
if you want to bye a quality panda in either Moore, Butterfly or Oranda, follow the guidelines below:

Pandas are not realy coldwater goldfish. They are bred in outdoor ponds year round at temps of around 22 to 26° C. To maintain their best color, they should be kept at these temperatures in the aquarium.

The panda mutation originates from Thailand and moved on to the Chinese breeders for export.

When bying Pandas ask your petshop where the fish originaly originated from. If the answer is Singapore, don't by them.

Never by a panda Oranda smaler than 4-5 inches as these are the culls from the broods. These are much cheaper than the good ones and they will change color (this applies to all colors in Orandas).

Expect to pay between 25 and 30$ for a reasonably good black and white Panda.

When choosing an Oranda, Look at the hood this must be of good form and reasonably be developed. Also the body must be egg shaped and not elongated.

Panda Orandas of good quality that don't have a fully black colored hood, show a vanilla color on the hood, NOT YELLOW.

Orandas that show a small hood, normaly have an elongated body in the 4-5 inch size, DON'T BY THESE, they will change color.

Feed you Orandas Hikari Lionhead or Oranda pellets, to maintain their natural color, Also feed the frozen red, white and black musquito larve. These will help your animals in good growth and health. Ones ore twice a week feed them defrosted peas and/or hikari goldfish flake. Hikari food is realy the best you can give them and the flake food doen't foul the water! NEVER feed TETRA food to your Oranda's, this will surely give them internal problems.

The panda Oranda now is available in black (black and white), blue and brown.

Ofspring from the panda also produced an other variety, the tri-color, wich has next to the black or brown some red or orange markings on the back and/or head. The main body color is (silvery) white. These are not calico. The calico has a blue base color that shows trough the white body color.

The best panda Oranda's and Moores still originate from thailand and are not always the most expensive.

Hope this helped,

Marc

[Stargazer]

One time I bought several red and white comets all from the same parents out of them only 1 stayed red and white the others had their red's vanish and they were pure white.same thing with my stargazer (Star) when she was small she was white with a golden Orange starburst (round spot) on her back as she grew the spot dissapeared too. so I think maybe it's the same gene as the vanishing Panda markings....? could this be ? any thought's on this? I would love to work on the Panda gene making it a sound marking pattern.I now have 2 large Butterfly Panda moors,2 smaller ones I got as a present a few months ago and a white bellied Butterfly black moor thats white has grown as it has onto it's sides also 2 white bellied Butterfly black moors from someones show stock -really cute
Debby

[degbowl]

I have a panda oranda for about 6 months now. His colors were black and white. All the black is gone and now he is orange and white. I still like the colors and I am happy that I bought him.

[Stargazer]

Hi
I just purchased 3 Panda Orandas from Kimmykoiart they are goldfish and koi importer from China. The Panda Orandas are about 5" , I also purchased another stargazer from them as well.Im really looking forward to getting them tomarrow. Hopefully they will make the trip across the states ok .I saw their picture on ebay and I was recommending them to another person to look at ,who was also looking for a panda , then when I watched the auction get to the end and noone was bidding ,it was too much .so I bidded . to get Pandas is hard enough but to get imported Pandas from China I couldnt pass that up, all of their fish looked really nice. it costed me with shipping $32.50 ea thats such a great deal!
Im hopeing they keep their color pattern...time will tell but I think if they are already 5" they will hold it.ill keep my fingers crossed

[Stargazer]

I got the Panda Orandas in the moring at 9am the next day after they shipped them ,I thought wow that was fast but I was dissapointed that the shipping company - fed ex didnt wait till i answered the door before they left the box of fish on my doorstep and they rushed off...
anyhow the fish have nice head growth and faces as cute as can be. they were 5" TL and i noticed right off that their Panda markings are not going to stay as they had already showed faded markings exposing the orange patches under.But I still really like them and im happy to of gotten them.

[chocolatedonkey]

i'm kinda new to all this forum business, but i joined up to find out about my panda - i've had it for about 1 1/2 years now and it's about 5 or 6" long ( is this normal growth ?) and its colour is the same as when i got it at 2" length, ie. it is black and silver with very small amount of gold/orange between the two. the only change i have noticed is that some of his/her black scales have become silver on the very outside edge - approx. the outside 1/4 mm only... also the growths on its head and cheeks have become larger - is this normal? any ideas on what it might be worth if i wanted to sell dye to tank size restrictions?

[NotoriousSway]

any updates? or new news on this subject? Are the newer strains more stable?

My girlfriend was wanting one but I dont want to get one and then have it change color.

[Somervell]

The information that Marc provided was dead on. That having been said, I received a suprise when I bought what I believed to be a well-bred Black telescope. It developed, after two years, into a true panda with neither yellow or orange casts. I couldn't be more thrilled The bottom line? You get what you pay for, and even then, you never know...

As much as I love the "panda" look, I believe that unless you are really willing to get into "high-roller" goldfish buying, the genetics are too iffy for me. Old thread, but information is still good.

[Inka4040]

I don't think I can agree with everything Marc has said. Whether a panda changes color or not has nothing to do with how much you pay for the fish, and is very much so a crap shoot. The more expensive fish tend to be larger, and a larger fish will have a greater chance of holding onto particolored patterns, but at the end of the day, there is no fixed genetic makeup for a panda goldfish. If you want truly stable bi or tricolor goldfish, you have to get into some of the new color varieties that have been developed from calico stock. Tricolors, kirin goldfish, and many of the crystal type colors have been shown to hold their patterning/color far better than any of the straight up metallic goldfish. Unfortunately, these fish tend to show a mix of colors, more like a brindle dog than the well defined patches of solid color one generally expects from a panda goldfish.

[Ichthius]

Partially demelanized metallic fish will eventually fully demalanize in my experience. Take a picture, it will last logger than the panda coloration.

[BeavisMom62]

I just bought a panda butterfly last night. I know this is an old thread but I was googling and it came up. I was wondering and I think you all already answered my questions, was whether or not he would retain his colors or not. Beautiful fish. I've wanted one forever but have never seen them in stores before. I found him in a little ma and pa place yesterday. Doing all I can to help him survive. He's fine at the moment, but the owner told me that they just got them in yesterday and he is quite small. Came home and set up a qt for him. Usually in the winter I use a heater and keep it at around 75 in my other goldie's tank but I don't have any more heaters. Should I buy another heater for the month this new guy will spend in QT or not? The QT temp is around 69-70, which is a little cooler than I like to keep my goldies. I really hope he keeps his color. I bought an oranda from this same place about a year ago. When I bought him he was orange with a black cap and a black stripe down his back to his tail. Never saw another fish marked like that. Well, now he is solid gold! Oh, well. As you all have said, by the time the color changes you are in love with them anyway and it really doesn't matter!

[tinka]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum! As someone has mentioned pandas are fairly new in the market and therefore the gene pool is huge. Maybe in a few more years, after a few generations the colours will stabilize. Although someone has mentioned that they are breed outdoors, the black colour tends to become deeper in cooler weather. In heated water their pigments tend to change to orange etc. Warmer water promotes growth. So pick which one you prefer!

[Jill-O]

While I do not know for sure, I would think TRUE panda goldies would retain their markings; however, I would imagine there's a big potential for regular goldies to be sold / marketed incorrectly as pandas and to have their markings go from light spotted to solid black.