Those of us with Wet/Dry filters

[Jamie]

I know that there are many planted tank - wet/dry users out there. I was just wondering if anyone was willing to share valuable tips on how they have there filtration set up and any tricks they have come up with to accomodate their plants. Right now I am struggling- I can barely keep my pH at 6.8 with a KH of 2. I'm kind of bummed out and have tried everything I can think of. I have absolutely no fall into my overflows, maybe 1/4", if that. I know that I have a big disturbance of water as it flows over the bio-balls but anyone who has a wet/dry has this - and I have heard of plenty of people having this type of filtration and still maintaining CO2 levels. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks - Jamie

[Timmain42]

I run one.

For me, and this tank in particular, I think the key is low GPH and placement of the CO2 dispersion unit or powerhead as far away from the overflow as possible.

My KH is higher than yours, but I monitor that weekly and adjust it upwards with baking soda, to around 3.5. I have a smart monitor that kicks the CO2 in around the 6.6-6.7 range. That gives me around 20-25 mgL of CO2, which is a comfortable range for me.

And the plants seem to love it. :)

[Jamie]

Timmain, How big is your tank and what is your GPH? I was considering slowing down the flow but was wondering what is safe/unsafe. Your experience would be helpful.

[Jamie]

also, I purchased the aquarium pharmacueticals Master Test Kit as my major "laboratory". What do you, or anyone else reading, use and are you satisfied with the quality of the product. I'm a bit skeptical about mine. Considering the importance of KH and pH in determining CO2 Concentration, I would prefer to have a reliable means to test for them - allthough I do have a Milwaukie(sp) pH control that displays the pH.

[Dabbler II]

With a wet/dry sump style you do have to "Pump" more co2 in. I have a 20lb bottle of co2 and it lasts about 2 to 2 1/2 months thats it (and only running the co2 when the lights are on about 11 hours a day) and I get a stable ph of 7

Good luck:)

[The Gipper]

I have recently (May) set up a 120 gal (4x2x2) with wet-dry. I am struggling to keep my pH at 7.0, and to do this I have to stream my CO2 into the intake of my submersible pump at a huge rate!

I have ordered a plantguild CO2 power reactor, and I know that will make some difference over not using any reactor in my system.

But I discovered an interesting thing by accident: I did my usual water change, but over filled my tank such that the bioballs in the sump were almost completely covered. In other words, I am using a 20 gal tank for my sump, and the water level in the sump was about 3 inches from the top. I left it this way. The interesting thing is that later that day (maybe 8 hours later), the pH was down to 6.5!!! Nothing else was different in my setup. Therefore I deduced that the water cascading through the bioballs is causing a tremendous out-gassing of CO2.

The main thing I like about the wet-dry is the surface skimming, otherwise, I would have started with canisters to begin with. I may switch to canisters yet, but will wait and put the CO2 reactor on, see how the pH goes, before making a big investment and switch filters.

I may try changing my sump media around. Instead of a rectangular holding pen with bioballs, and the water dripping through a drip tray through them, I am brainstorming about using a cylindrical column holding pen, maybe 8-10 inches in diameter. Then I would have the water first flow through "filter fluff" (standard polyester stuff) as the first filter media in the cylinder as a prefilter. this would be above water line. Then the water would flow down through some permanently submerged filter material, similar to what happens in a canister filter.

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by Jamie
Timmain, How big is your tank and what is your GPH? I was considering slowing down the flow but was wondering what is safe/unsafe. Your experience would be helpful.

also, I purchased the aquarium pharmacueticals Master Test Kit as my major "laboratory". What do you, or anyone else reading, use and are you satisfied with the quality of the product. I'm a bit skeptical about mine. Considering the importance of KH and pH in determining CO2 Concentration, I would prefer to have a reliable means to test for them - allthough I do have a Milwaukie(sp) pH control that displays the pH.

The tank is the one listed in my signature. It's 240g/200g in-system/400-800WPG@peak. I'm running a "QuietOne3000" cranked back to about half, so about 400GPH or 2x water change an hour. I have a manifold return in the tank so water is pumped back into the tank at the left-top end and also at about the middle bottom, for better circulation.

Strangely enough, I got tired of the "Master Test Kit" and bought a Hagen KH/GH test kit. It works quite well. The smart CO2 system that I bought can be found here (http://www.floridadriftwood.com/product.asp?0=217&1=252&3=543). The only part of this system that I am dissatisfied with is the CO2 reactor.

And I agree with the others, CO2 tends to burn off quicker with a W/D. I have two 10lb bottles that I switch out, and it takes about 4 months to go through each 10lb bottle on the 240.

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by The Gipper
I may try changing my sump media around. Instead of a rectangular holding pen with bioballs, and the water dripping through a drip tray through them, I am brainstorming about using a cylindrical column holding pen, maybe 8-10 inches in diameter. Then I would have the water first flow through "filter fluff" (standard polyester stuff) as the first filter media in the cylinder as a prefilter. this would be above water line. Then the water would flow down through some permanently submerged filter material, similar to what happens in a canister filter.

I was going to suggest a sponge of some type for replacement of the bioballs. I've seen others do this so that they don't have to go Berlin with their W/D plant tanks. I am considering removing my bioballs as well, as they don't seem to be serving much purpose.

And that's an OPINION now, not gospel. I'm experimenting just as much as anyone else here.

[Jamie]

Timmain, what do you mean by go "Berlin"?, I have floss at the top of my bio-ball waterfall on top of my drip tray, but it is not replacement for the bio-balls. It is really just a noise reducer. What don't you like about your CO2 reactor? I just bought the same one. I have noticed right away that little bubbles are escaping out the bottom - I was wondering if there was a way to extend the chamber any by attaching a section of a gravel vac.

Gipper, I've thought about raising the water level in my sump but I had two concerns: 1) If I get a power outage I need that space in the sump to account for the water that will flow down from the main tank do to syphoning and such. 2) I wasn't too sure how effective the bio-balls would be completely submerged. Do they need the ambient air around them or is the oxygen in the water sufficient? canister filters don't have ambient air flowing through them and they work fine, right? As part of this idea of submerging the bio-balls to reduce gas off I thought, "why not turn this wet/dry filter into a large canister type". I'm not sure how I'd do this, but considering how much CO2 I'm losing, it's definitately worth thinking about/figuring out. I think the biggest challeng would be to make it water tightI would have initially gone with canister filters had I know the hassles involved with planted tanks and wet/dry's. I've only stuck out the whole wet/dry thing because my tank is drilled for it, and I have a 30 gallon sump ($180) and external pump ($160).

[The Gipper]

The power outage issue is a valid concern. I don't normally fill my tank so much that the sump is within 3 inches of top. Usually the sump (20 gal) is about half-full.

the thing about the bioballs being in air as I understand things is this: For biological filtration you provide a media upon which the beneficial bacteria can grow. The greater surface area the more space to accomodate the beneficial bacteria. Bioballs have incredible surface area. The benefit of having them above water is that these beneficial bacteria do their thing best with maximum oxygen, hence suspending them above water level. Some people even air pump air into the bioball chamber to increase O2 levels. They bacteria still needs to be wet, hence the constant dripping of water. If the bioballs are submerged, and you flow water over them you are still supporting the bacteria, but maybe not as much O2 as having them in air. So I would guess the biological filtration is not as efficient as if theywere in air, but it's still there. And as long as you don't get ridiculous about fish stocking it should be fine.

[RTR]

The Gipper - if your bioballs are fully exposed to room air, that is the primary cause of your CO2 off-gassing - you efectively have a massive surface disturbance operating. Bioballs encased in towers and covered do not IME cause much if any outgassing of CO2 so long as you do not do the original technique from years ago of putting an airstone under the bioball tower - totally un-needed.

Bioballs can be submerged and will function (although smaller sizes are generally used for this to avoid the huge space waste), and then will function as do the more compact bioballs designed for use inside canisters. I use Dupla's Minikaskade balls in canisters routinely. In either submerse use, they are dependent on dissolved O2.

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by Jamie
Timmain, what do you mean by go "Berlin"?, I have floss at the top of my bio-ball waterfall on top of my drip tray, but it is not replacement for the bio-balls. It is really just a noise reducer. What don't you like about your CO2 reactor? I just bought the same one. I have noticed right away that little bubbles are escaping out the bottom - I was wondering if there was a way to extend the chamber any by attaching a section of a gravel vac.

My understanding is that Berlin is the term used for a W/D that has no bio-media and is only being used as a sump, perhaps with only floss as a mechanical filter. I think RTR is onto something with the room-air-degas.

If the bubbles are tiny (near-pinpoint-sized), that's what it's suppsed to be doing. If they're huge (like a pencil eraser), clean that sponge. I don't like the reactor because the circular sponge gets dirty quick and gets pushed out of the chamber easily. I wash the sponge weekly, but I've gone so far as to make a rubber-band harness to keep the sucker inside the cylinder. As on today, I've removed the sponge, and I'm now experiementing with using a few orange bioballs to break up the bubbles, and the net from a standard green net to keep the bioballs inside the cylinder.

[The Gipper]

Thanks RTR & all.

Me thinks I could keep my wet-dry but change to a sealed biotower with smaller bioballs or ceramic noodels (eheim), etc.
The plantguild reactor arrived today so I will set it up tomorrow. Timm, I'll see how the sponge behaves in the end of the tube and let you know.

Regards.. The Gip

[Jamie]

my biotower is sealed, yet I still am gassing off quite a bit. Something is fishy though, first off, I have no nitrite/ammonia, my ph is 6.8, hardness is 2. My water quality would seem quite suitable for fish, yet they keep kicking the bucket. Of the 50 total fish i've put in, at least 20 have died and about 2-3 keep "departing" daily. They don't act as if they're struggling with a lack of oxygen. I slowed down the flow of my tank today hoping to keep more of my CO2, but it's about the same- bouncing around 6.7 - 6.8 with a KH of 2. I've posted before about the unusual quality of my water out of the tap, and it was decided that my water company uses a slated lime treatment which increases pH but keeps the water soft. Tomorrow I'm gonna call the water co. and see whats up. Also, I'm gonna calibrate my pH controller tomorrow as well, though it checks out with the AP Master Test Kit.

[RTR]

Have you tested for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? Do you pre-treat for chlorine/chloramine?

[Jamie]

no ammonia/nitrites and i pretreat for chloramine/chlorine with bio-safe. I need to get a nitrate tester -(any suggestions) i thought the master test kit had one but it doesn't. I have added nitrates (KNO3) to my tank as part of my fertilizing regime for my plants...I added the amount I figured through chuck's planted aquarium's dosage calculator, achieving 5-10 ppm. I think I'm going to increase my flow back to normal today - I'm getting a bunch of crap floating on the top of my tank. Besides, slowing the flow didn't help my CO2 gas off problem.

[Jamie]

just talked to the water co. They treat the water with lime, add chlorine (no chloramines), flouride, and zinc orthophosphate. I don't know anything about the zinc orthophosphate and will be googling it in a sec. Maybe it's the culprit.

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by Jamie
just talked to the water co. They treat the water with lime, add chlorine (no chloramines), flouride, and zinc orthophosphate.

You lucky dog. The rest of us have to dose for Phosphates. :(

[Jamie]

Lucky? I don't know about that - I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with my water. My fish keep dying. And now I have hair algea everywhere - all in my wisteria, on my driftwood, java ferns, rocks - everywhere, even on the glass. All in a matter of two days! I didn't think it would be so sudden - I need some more algea eating fish, yet I'm afraid to add anything for fear of killing them from whatever unknown reason that is going on in my tank. Man, some of the hair algea strands are like 6 inches....wild.