Is there a good way to go half way with plants???

[joe schmoe]

I'm setting up a new 120 gal. tank (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/tank.jpg), and although I've kept fish for quite some time, I have never tried my hand at live plants. The catch is...I don't think I want to invest the time and effort most of you here have in setting up a full-on plant tank.

Is there any way to get live plants to grow (not necessarily flourish) with a minimum of effort?? Plants for the lazy man :D.

I have yet to equip the tank with anything, so from what I read I may be able to help things along with some flourite, yes?? Canisters instead of HOBs. The tank came with two 24" 20 watt (I presume...there are no markings) bulbs which, from what I read, will be woefully inadequate. I'm willing to upgrade those, but only a reasonable expense.

Basically, I'm looking for an easy route to keeping "easy" live plants. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

PS...I've searched for an hour or two and haven't found a smiliar post.

[Sum-X]

It's easy to keep plants, you just have to know which ones... ex: Anacharis, and Cabomba are both fairly easy to keep.

Flourite helps a lot, and if you could change out those 20w, for some "Floraglo" lights... They are very nice for keeping plants. Oh, and if you're scared of an overpopulation of snails, be sure to wash your plants, and look them over carefully before adding them to the tank.

[CHINABOY1021]

plants can be very cheap. the best decor for the dollar is plants on driftwood. java fern, anubias, java moss. these will "live" with your current lighting. but most plants that are above the low light level require you to spend at least 100 bucks

imo, skip the flourite. its too expensive to fill a 120 for a few plants. plus the 3 kinds of plants i listed dont need rich gravel or high light.

[Robert H]

Lighting will be the biggest thing. Two 20 watt bulbs on a 120 gallon tank is not just inadequate, its absolutely ridiculous. You couldn't possibly grow any plants, I dont even see how that is enough light for illumination too see your fish properly. I can not imagine why any tank manufacturer would supply such grossly inadequate light on a tank that size.

Ideally you should have 240 watts of light at the very least to grow plants. If you have a wood canopy or hood, you can easily retrofit enough light using power compact fluorescents for around $250 from AH supply or some other retrofit company. If you do not feel comfortable wiring your own lights. your only alternative is to buy fixtures, either something that will sit on the tank, or hang above it. Here you are looking at 300 to 500 dollars.

If you want to get real cheap and a little tacky looking, you can buy 48" shop light fixtures that hold two 40 watt tubes. You would need a glass cover on the tank, and then you would need to cram as many of these on top of the tank as will fit. They cost about $8 each at Home Depot, and the bulbs 5 or $6 each.

[The Gipper]

Yes you can do plants and keep costs down by staying to low light plants.

Do not buy CO2: a huge cost for pressurized, and DIY is too time consuming and a hassle for what you want to do.

Lighting: Dump the 24" strips. I have the same tank as you. Get 48" strip lights. The bulbs are 40 watt. Either cheap shop lights from a Home Depot type store (Get 2 x 2 bulb fixtures), and attach them into a wood hood, or just buy some All-Glass brand 48" strip lights and put them over a glass top (do you have one of those with your tank?). I believe they make dual bulb strips in 48" length. 120 - 160 watts is plenty.

Plants: Java Fern, most of the Crypts, Amazon Swords, some easy to grow bunch plants, ask your fish store for suggestions.

Fertilizer: A good liquid like Seachem Fluorish or Excel added a couple times a week per instructions. For amazon swords, a plnat-tab or Jobe-spike fertilizer pellet buried in the gravel under the plant.

A little bit of driftwood, a rock or two, and you will have a beautiful tank with very low maintenance plants. I have done this for years and the tanks are beautiful.

[djlen]

Joe, most of the advice you are getting is good.
You have a very nice and expensive tank. I'm guessing that you have the bucks to set it up nicely, but don't have the time to spend fiddling with it all the time.
The most cost-effective way to light it(and you really need to increase that) is to call AH Lighting, describe the tank and hoods you have, tell them you want something in the 2watts/gal. area and they will give you all your options. They are very good in that regard. If you do it this way you'll have to wire it up and mount it in your existing fixtures, which is not all that difficult to do and you will have exactly what you need, light-wise, for the application you describe.
If you don't want to do the wiring, you can buy strip lights at a number of on-line sites, or at your LFS, for a good deal more than the AH option would cost you.
And 2 watts/gal. CF would allow you to stay away from the CO2 thing and still grow low/moderate light plants.
Keep in mind that you will still need to find the balance(fish, plants, and fertilizers) for your particular tank, but once you do, it should require a small amount of time to maintain.
Yes to the Flourite......the stuff is complete and you will not have to add anything else to it.
Yes to the Cannisters. Either one large, or two medium sized would work nicely for you. I would lean toward the two, as cannisters can leave "dead spots" in areas of the tank. You want the water to move. In a tank that size, I don't think one cannister will do the job.
Two of the nicest plants for the lighting you want are Crypts. and Anubia. They both come in all sizes and shapes. Fore-ground, mid-size, and background. Throw in some stem plants for accent and you're in business.
Good Luck,
Len

[joe schmoe]

Originally posted by djlen
I'm guessing that you have the bucks to set it up nicely, but don't have the time to spend fiddling with it all the time

No on the first count (:p), yes on the second count. I had planned on spending about $300 on filtration...if I get 2 low-cost Fluval 404s, that will leave me with an extra ~$100 to upgrade the lights. I can then afford to get a 4' 3-bulb strip light for about that much and use that in addition to the lights I already have resulting in 160 watts. Maybe another 3-bulb stip light later, if it's in the budget...but as many of you probably know, buying, furnishing and landscaping your first new home ain't cheap...so I can't devote ALL of my extra money to my tank...my GF wouldn't appreciate that either :D .

Compact flourescents seem to be pricey, so maybe I can upgrade to those later if things go well. It came with no canopy, so retrofits, and entire hoods are much too expensive and out of the question.

[djlen]

Ok, back to the drawing board.
Did the tank come with a glass top? You can still get decent CF for it if you want to build your own canopy, which is also an easy project. Go here: http://www.ahsupply.com/
Schroll down to DIY enclosures on the left side of the page. There are a couple of links that will show you how cheap and easy it is to make one yourself. Then you order the lighting and install it in your enclosure. All you'll need is a glass top to sit it on. Or................
The least expensive option is shop lights. Four 40 watt. daylight tubes in a pair of shop lights would give you 160watts of light and that set up would cost about $35 - 40. On a 120, that's going to be a low light situation. In a deep tank like yours, CF is a much better way to go.
What are the dimensions of the tank?

Len

[Captain Hook]

I wanted to throw a couple of my own questions out there because they relate. Do the cheap Home Depot shop lights use the same size flourescents? Can I use the flora-gro or similar bulbs? Also, do I need a glass cover or something over the top of my aquarium? I am thinking about building my own cover for a 20 gallon with a 2 bulb shop light over it.

[joe schmoe]

5' long x 2' tall x 1.5' WIDE - EDIT.

The (2) 96watt bulb kit looks to be a good buy and I think I can pull off an enclosure of my own, but it's a bit more work...is the extra work really worth the difference between 192 watts and 160 watts?? Or is it the intensity with the reflector(s) that makes the difference??

EDIT...and yes, the tank has a glass top.

[The Gipper]

Cap,
Most of the Home Depot bulbs are not suitable for planted tanks. You want a bulb around the 6500 K range for p[roper spectrum of light. Some Depot used to carry a Chroma 50 bulb that would work.

Try doing a search on this forum of chroma 50.

[djlen]

You CAN buy 48", 6700K Daylight bulbs at LOWES(not sure about Home Depot). They are very effective, though not as efficient as CF, but they work and are an option for those that don't have the optimum cash flow situation that we'd all like.
I bought two shop lights for $8 each and 4 - 6700Ks at Lowes for one of my 55s and they are working fine.
The intensity of the CFs and the reflectors make a big difference in the amount of light that is able to penetrate deep water. My 55s have a depth of 24" and 160watts is fine for a moderate light application.
Yes, the extra work and money for CFs is definitely worth it in my opinion.
And a glass top is necessary in either case unless you want to go with an "open top" tank and can hang the shop light 3" - 4" above the top of the tank. Shop lights do not fair well, over time, in a humid situation.

Len

[joe schmoe]

Here's a stupid question for you....are the fish OK with this type of light intensity? Not with my half-a$$ed wattage...but if I splurged and ended up with 480 watts of CF, topwater fish wouldn't mind??

[superjohnny]

The fish are fine.

You really should consider buying good lighting. What's the point of spending money on a fish tank you can't see? A 4x55w kit from ahsupply costs $124 for the fixtures and $92 for the bulbs. It's well worth the money to do it right the first time.

[djlen]

Joe, here is a piece of advice I don't think you'll ever regret listening to. Go with 2 watts/gal. to start. Learn about planted tanks in general and your tank in particular before jumping up to 4 watts/gal. The most discouraging thing about this hobby is algae. Learning how to balance a tank and keep it clean need to be learned before going nuts with wattage. No disrespect intended here. Just trying to help.
Going to high lighting brings a whole bunch of issues into the equation and you originally said you wanted an easy tank. IMO, 4 watts/gal. is not going to be an easy tank.
Besides, you can always add lighting later, after learning.

Len

[TomFromStLouis]

Joe,

The setup you seek is described in excruciating detail in Walstad's "Ecology of Planted Aquarium", the bible of the low tech approach. She advocates a very hands off approach (she changes water once every 6 months!) that focuses on balance. She puts real soil under the gravel and considers fish food the only fertilizer needed.

While I have not set up a tank this way, you might search for posts about her approach in more detail. I know that WetmanNY subscribes to this approach and his site skepticalaquarist.com is full of good information along these lines.

[JLudwig]

Going to high lighting brings a whole bunch of issues into the equation and you originally said you wanted an easy tank. IMO, 4 watts/gal. is not going to be an easy tank.[/B]

On such a large tank, even 2W/gal is quite a bit of light, 4W/gal is really unnecessary for any larger tank. The 2-4 wpg rule of thumb refers to NO fluoro bulbs, not PCF. As you shrink the bulb size from T-12 (1 1/2") to T-5 (5/8") expect a 25-30% increase in intensity per watt. 2 wpg of PCF on any decent size tank is more than enough to grow any plant... you might not get the best reds, but it will do just fine... Java ferns and java moss, anubias species will do just fine in 1.5wpg or maybe a little less in a 120gallon tank.

The only reason to ever consider >2wpg is maybe for a very small tank, but this is done mainly to avoid hotspots, not intensity, sometimes 3wpg or so needed for difficult colors like those in Didiplis diandre ...

[Robert H]

When I first started my 100 gallon tank:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/rph_gallery/rphlong1.jpg

I had 440 watts of VHO light. I ended up droppping it down to 330 watts. It was much easier to control. Couple years later I replaced the VHO with 6 55watt PCs from Ah Supply. I use Pcs on all my tanks now.

The shop light fixtures do not come with any bulbs. You can put any kind of 48" tube you want in there. I use Chroma 75 tubes that cost around $5 each from Home Depot. Home Depot or Lowes also has HO fluorescent fixtures that are brighter than standard, (NO) tubes.

Power Compacts are brighter than NO tubes, I don't know if it is as much as Jeff suggests. Good reflectors help as well, and AH supplies reflectors are great. The nice thing about using their set up is you can always add more to it if you find you need it.

For tanks up to 48" long, I use JBJ lighting fixtures instead of retrofit kits. The fixtures are more reasonably priced without the hassle of building anything myself. Even their retrofit kits for small tanks come out a little cheaper than AH supply. I disagree with Jeff that 2watts/gal on a tank that size is still "quite a bit of light". Quite the opposite in my opinion. You have quite a bit of tank volume. A lot of length and depth. Water diffuses light, and the murkier your water is, the more light you need to penetrate it. In a tank that size you are bound to have a certain amount of organics in the water which will cloud it to some extent. The glass cover also diffuses light, and when the cover gets dirty or has calcium build up, that will block more light.

Start small and work your way up. You should also think about a C02 system.

[joe schmoe]

First of all, and big THANKS to everyone for their input. I've learned quite a bit...when I thought I already knew everything :D . Plants are a whole different world and I had NO idea.

I've decided to go with the (2) 96W CF kit, make my own hood/enclosure, and position the two strip lights that came with the tank to make sure I can see any topwater fish in the back of the tank. I chose not to go with the (4) 55W kit because the bulbs aren't long enough for the 60" length of the tank. With the 96W bulbs, there will be some overlap, so the DIY enclosure will be easier to put together.

I don't like the color or expense of Flourite or Onyx, so I'm gonna try pool filter sand as the substrate (cheeeeeeap :D) . Lastly, I'm going to go with 2 Fluval 404s - a bit more filtration than absolutely necessary, but I always like to over filter. After shipping, the lights and filters will be about $400, $100 over what I had hoped to spend, but I think it's a good compromise to allow me to try my hand at live plants.

I'm a bit of an amateur photographer, so once everything is up and running, I'll try to post some nice high-resoltuion pics.

Thanks again.

[superjohnny]

I have a 96w PC light. A replacement bulb is $45 at the cheapest LFS. The 96's get quite a bit hotter and generally don't last as long as the 55w lights. If I had it to do over again I'd get 2 55w lights instead of 1 96w light.

That's just my experience. I think you'll like power compact lighting though.

[joe schmoe]

Here is the progress so far: (most of these are large photographs)

*Initial fill of the tank - nothing special. (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/btank1.jpg)

*Close-up of the pool filter sand substrate. (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/btank2.jpg) $8/bag for 50lbs. Very clean, looks good. First time I've ever gone with something other than normal aquarium gravel/sand...I like it.

*The DIY hood before paint. (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/btank3.jpg) It cost me a little more because I bought a $50 electric brad nailer. The wood ran me less than $20.

*The top of the hood painted black. (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/btank4.jpg)

*The bottom of the hood painted white (mostly :D) (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/btank5.jpg) I wanted to make sure as much light made into the tank as possible, so I tried painting the inside white. It may not make a difference, but I figured I'd try it. I'm going to try to mount the reflectors so that the ugliness on the inside can't be seen from the outside - just black.

*Filled tank with DIY hood. (http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/btank6.jpg)

The lights should be arriving in the next few days.

[djlen]

Good job with the hood Joe. I think you're going to be happy with what you got. It will take a while to get things balanced out, but when you have questions, all of us will be here to screw you up.....eh help you out.
Let us know how the wiring up process went and send more pics when you can. Jeeesh! Sounds like you're going on vacation.

Len

[andruboz]

i am a lousy plant keeper, but that doesnt stop me from trying.

ive kept some amazon sword alive by jamming some plant food tablets [iron fortified] down in the roots whenever they start looking sickly.

cabomba was more like bomba. when it dies, it clogs a filter pronto. when a sword is falling apart at least the leaves are big.

anacharis seems to live better when its floating in my tanks. which is cool if you're an african butterflyfish and want to hide in it.

i also have some huge floating clump of a plant that showed up with a shipment of snails. dont know what it is, but i've throw away piles of it already and it still keeps growing. the lady at work thought it was parrots feather or something.

[joe schmoe]

Originally posted by djlen
Jeeesh! Sounds like you're going on vacation.

Actually, I've been on vacation the past dew days :D....otherwise I probably wouldn't have had the time. And no, I don't spend my vacations working on fish tanks....these were just some extra vacation days I needed to blow. But I do want to hurry up and get things going. I've always kept Africans, so the live plant/community fish thing is all pretty new. I really look forward to trying new fish, and seeing if I can figure out plants. If the plants are too much of a PITA, then I'll dump 'em...just to keep things fun.


Expect MANY newbie questions from me over the coming months. :cool:

[Paul]

I have a 30-gallon tank lighted with one 20 Watt, 24'' Power-Glo bulb. Believe it or not, I can keep two java ferns and some bedraggled floating plants alive with this setup, although they won't win any gardening prizes. I suspect they might do a tad better with more light. So, assuming I want around 60 Watts total, should I get two 30 Watt bulbs? If so, how long - my tank is a 36''? I assume I need a new thingamajig that you plug the bulbs into as well - or do I need to replace the whole hood - glass, cover, etc.?

Oh yes, one more question: what's "strip lighting"?

Thanks.

[joe schmoe]

Just to update this thread a bit....

My suggestion for anyone who's new to plants and wants to give them a try....start off with the plants that grow extremely fast (stem plants). By doing that, I assume you eliminate or decrease the odds of getting the extreme green water I've got. I think my problem was that I was dosing fourish and fourish iron when I only had a few Java Ferns. To that, I added a bunch of plastic plants that were covered with dead algae. The green water took off and has stayed for a about a month now. The Ferns were looking pretty good, but in an attempt to kill the green water I added some of that algicide stuff...the Ferns are now gone...the green water never changed. :mad:

I recently added a 60 plant assortment from aquariumgarden.com and removed the fake plants. It's difficult to figure out how the plants are doing since I pretty much can't see them. I can only see what's within about 3 inches of the glass. So...the Bacopa is showing some green growth at the top, as is the green Hygro. Rotala is showing some little green sprouts at the tops, but the existing leaves are in pretty sorry shape. I can't see the anacharis, but after a water change I was able to see some growth and roots sprouting. The biggest success has been the Hornwort. I can actually see the tops. I thought they may have uprooted, but I groped around and found that they are still rooted, just much much longer. They've gone from about 8 inches long to reaching from the back of the tank...to the top of the water at the front of the tank. All of this growth since I replanted them last week during a water change. At least I can grow the easy ones :D . The Wisteria disappeared in a day or two...the fish found it tasty. Other that that...nothing has died yet.

I have a UV sterilizer and a 3rd Fluval 404 on their way from Big Al's....so I'm counting the days before I can see my tank again. Freeing up all of those nutrients for the plants will probably be a good thing, but I'm sure I'll have to keep my eye out for algae.

Bacopa and Rotala:
http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/plant1.jpg

Green Hygro:
http://webpages.charter.net/res0t2li/plant2.jpg

The plants are sort of scattered throughout the tank. There is no arrangement like what I usually see pictured in this forum. I think I should figure out what I can grow, then work on arrangements later.