Someone with a strong water chemistry background pls help

[Jamie]

First off, I'm having quite a few problems adding CO2 to my tank. According to the KH/pH scale, I can barely maintain 9-10 ppm with a steady flow of cCO2 and a decent reactor. Having tried everything I could think of/that was suggested to me, I called the water company and asked what they added to the water. They said they added chlorine, flouride, lime, and zinc orthophosphate. Well, I tried to do some research on the phosphate through google and came up emptyhanded as to what the effects are. All I really found out was that it is used as a corrosion inhibitor. Still curious, I decided to call the water co. again to see if they knew what the hardness of the water out of the plant was. I suspected that maybe my KH test kit was fouled. Well, I spoke with a different guy this time and though he wasn't sure, he said that he knows that the water is not that hard because thay add a water softener to the water at the plant. I asked what the softener was and he said Calgon, next I asked for the scientific name and he told me it was sodium hexametaphosphate. I'm having an even worse time figuring out what this is and how it would affect my CO2 computations. I know that I read somewhere that if you use certain pH buffers from the LFS, then your CO2 calculations wouldn't be accurate. Is this my case because of the water company? Worst of all - my fish have been dying quite regularly over the past week - to think if I have been suffocating them with CO2 injection thinking that I really had low/moderate levels. Yikes. I hope someone knows something about this stuff.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Jamie
First off, I'm having quite a few problems ...... Worst of all - my fish have been dying quite regularly over the past week -.... On an earlier Thread, I asked about 'cycling' your tank?
Bio-Spira was metioned... and I'm not sure that product worked as advertised..

Just a thought for future reference. Sorry to hear of the losses...

[Jamie]

The bio-spira appears to have worked - I have 0 nitrites and 0 ammonia. I just can't put my finger on the problem. With the call to the water co. and finding out what they add to the tap water - I was hoping someone would be able to give me some good news in a sense that I might know what the problem is and how to correct it.

[djlen]

Carbonic acid poisoning is characterized in steps by a general sluggishness of the fish, then they lose interest in food, start to pant(rapid gill function), a loss of coloring and soon are obviously in trouble. They will sink to the bottom or float to the top, obviously in distress. Without rapid change(water changes is best) they will die soon after. Some fish are more easily affected by the acid than others. Angels are a good barometer to watch.
What are your fish doing before they die?

Len

[Jamie]

see, that is the problem, they seem to be fine - decent coloration, swimming actively, then I find them one at a time stuck on the filter. I just noticed some ich on a few of the fish - they are under some sort of stress, but I can't pinpoint what is causing it. I even brought my water to the LFS and they said they haven't seen such "perfect" water. Though all they test for is pH, nitrites, and ammonia. My loaches and rams seem to be doing fine, as well as the farlowellas. With the addition of all this hair algea, I think they'll be fine food-wise for a while. But it seems as though there's a little fishy sniper thats picking off my hatchets, cardinals, and rasboras. Very frustrating. The water has just about cleared up completely due to the cycle I guess. I don't know if this is strange, but the rasboras are always swimming rapidly back and for across the glass - I've never known them to be so "active" lke that. Also, the cardinals are always hiding in the bunch plants at the back of my tank. They hardly swim around at all. This may be a sign of oxygen starvation. Maybe they're hanging out in the plants because they produce O2. The hatchets just hang out at the top like I guess they're supposed to - they aren't very active at all either. I've gone from 16 of these to 8! Obviously something is wrong...but what....I was thinking it might be my tap water - but I need the experience of others to help me sort that out. Hopefully soon, before my fish cuont is 0.

[djlen]

Although I can't find it right now, I thought I read somewhere in one of your posts that you didn't know your Nitrate reading. Have you tested for that? Don't dose until you do. What is your phosphate reading?
Give us a list of every fish in the tank. From your description it sounds like somebody is intimidating somebody, or worse.
What is your latest CO2 ppm?
Do you have any wood of any type in the tank?

Len

[Jamie]

You are correct - I am buying a nitrate tester today. I wil post the results as soon as I perform the test. Initially I thought my phosphate reading was good...around 1 - 2 ppm. But upon closer attention to the chart when I tested today, it's actually .1 - .2 ppm. I need to increase the phosphates which suprised me do to the fact that both unknowns from my water co. are phosphate based.. My latest CO2 calculations based on KH and pH is around 10 ppm. I don't know if this is acurate due to the softeners that the water co adds. That was the purpose of this thread...to figure out what sodium hexametaphoshate (calgon) and zinc orthophosphate are and what they do to aquarium water. All I've found so far is that the hexametaphosphate is used as a breath freshener in mints and dog bones and the orthophosphate is a corrosion inhibitor...hmmmm. A list of the fish left in my tank:

4 zebra loaches
3 gold rams
2 farlowellas
7 marble hatchets
16 harlequin rasboras
16 cardinal tetras

The rasboras and cardinals may actually be less - it's hard to keep count of them. I watch my tank quite a bit, and everyone gets along just fine. The only fish that are rambunctious every so often are the rams...and that's just with each other. They like to lip lock and dance around. Gotta love cichlids. The only other act of aggression I have seen thus far is from my loaches. The larger of the loaches was chasing the other loaches away from "his" pellet of food. Though there were rams eating from it without any problems.

Wood in my tank - yes, and like everything else I guess we could be skeptical about it - everything is the enemy untill we figure out what the problem is. I have three large pieces of Malaysian Driftwood. I bought it from aquacave.com at a very reasonable price. It's the heavy stuff that sinks by itself. It has a dark color with slow twists to it. I think it is very attractive, though right now it is serving as a nice place for the hair algea to grow...which didn't get any better since yesterday - in fact I think it may have gotten a little bit worse.

Something else in regards to my water quality - I have particles floating all around in my water. I think it's mostly plant debris. You can't really notice it from far away (as with the algea) but upon a close look at the water, stuff is everywhere. I'm not used to wet/dry filtration, this is my first time ever using it (and probably my last). In my old 55 I had a hot magnum with a penguin biowheel that kept the water sparkling clean. Right now this tank looks like it is lightly snowing with debris. What I wouldn't give to turn back time and forget about drilling this tank for the wet/dry system.

[JLudwig]

You can try this....

test water for CO2 right out of tank, take another sample at the same time from the tank and aerate all night, test this one the next day. Add 3ppm CO2 to the difference of the two to get a rough idea of CO2... its not quite linear but should be okay...

To determine wether or not what the water util is adding is effecting your buffering, look at the pH of the aerated sample and measure alkalinity. Water in contact with air will have 2-3ppm or so, so assume this for the sample that has been aerated, use the KH you measured and read pH off the chart. If this equals the pH of your sample you should be in good shape.

Generally water softeners are put in to remove divalent cations, Mg++ and Ca++ not effect alkalinity... infact, water companies usually do the opposite: pH/alk is increased so that protein skimming is possible, also some de-gas their water to prevent corrosion - low pH/alk is bad for pipes. First get your CO2 issues worked out before adding any ferts, under good lighting 20-30ppm is required for good growth, else you're adding food for algae without lifting the carbon limitation... then get NO3/K taken care off, do traces and PO4 last.

[djlen]

I've never had or used a wet-dry, but I've heard many stories regarding people having issues with CO2 while using them.
I really think the problem with your CO2 ppm revolves around a gas off involving the filtration.
As to the snow.....I have no idea what that's all about. Particles?

Wood in the tank will often give a pH test result that looks lower than it actually is. In other words, the result you get makes it look like the CO2 ppm is much higher than it actually is. I use African Root(similar to what you have) and if I believed my pH test results I have close to 90ppm/CO2. That concentration should kill every fish in my tanks, but they are all just fine. My angels and emperor tetras breed regularly in my show tank. All is well, but you can imagine my alarm when I first looked at the results of my pH test, before knowing how my wood affected the test.

Len
Edit: Jeffrey knows his stuff when it comes to water chemistry. He may be new to this forum, but he's very knowledgeable on the subject.

[Jamie]

Len, tested for nitrates and they are fine - 15-20ppm like i dosed per chucks planted aquarium. I hope the pH isn't higher than what it actually reads - then I'll have next to no CO2.

Jeffery, thanks for the post. I've read other posts by you and was hoping you'd reply. All of what you said sounds good - I'll try it out tonight/tomorrow. I agree, I think I jumped into the ferts too soon. Right now I have more hair algea than I care to mention. Though all the fert levels are as recommended by folks here and most other places.

Thanks guys.

[The Gipper]

I just ordered a canister for my 120 to replace my DIY wet-dry. I too have particles floating everywhere, and like you Jamie, you don't see it from across the room but sitting in front of the tank it's quite evident. The wet-dry only skims from the surface and does not keep my tank sparkling clean. That combined with running ridiculous amounts of CO2 into the tank in order to hold 7.0 is enough for me. Luckily my tank was not drilled. Can you seal or cap the drilled holes?

[Jamie]

Yes, I can cap the holes...but then I'm stuck with two corner weirs that are internally fixed to the tank with no purpose and a 30 gallon sump with an external pump. All together the sump was 180, the pump was 160, and to have the weirs installed and the holes drilled, that raised the price of the tank by about 160 (including all of the fittings I needed). That's 500 big ones right there....sickening! Seems like it would be a waste of tank space (the weirs) and money. I was talking to the wife and I'm pretty sure if things keep going like they are, when we move in 9 mo. I will convert this tank into a cichlid tank. I will keep the wet dry set up and only add very low maint. plants. Maybe some anubias types with lots of rocks. I would love to keep it planted..that was the purpose of this tank when I bought it, but if this tank isn't fighting it. I'm going to give it my best shot for the next 9 mo., maybe something will finally work out. To think that it will not happen is very discouraging. I put a lot of time into planning this set-up to meet the needs of the future plants. Oh there's another thing - 150 lbs of flourite - that's an additional 170. Arrgghhhhhhhh. And then the PC lighting from AH Supply - 300. Hmmm, maybe I should keep it planted. A canister or two could be bought for around 200. I'd still be stuck with the sump and pump. I could probably figure out someway to route the canister hoses through the holes that are already drilled. Sigh....I don't know, why can't things just work out like you plan? Let me know how you like your new canister. What kind did you end up getting? Didn't you just get the power reactor? I got it and my CO2 concentrations are the same. Just can't keep it in the water on account of the wet/dry I guess. It's weird that so many people have hadgood luck with them and planted tanks. I don't get it. Some folks here said don't go wet/dry (unfortunately it was too late) while others said that it was fine. Like I said - frustrating, enough to make me lose sleep.

[JLudwig]

Howdy again...

I don't use wet/drys, mostly keep smaller tanks, however three of the most knowledgable in the hobby almost exclusively use wet-drys: Chuck Gadd, Tom Barr and George Booth. Both Chuck and George give advise on their websites about how to avoid this diffusion out of the tank:

see Georges under CO2 injection->CO2 loss in large tanks:
http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/

And chucks under wet-dry:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm

Also Tom Barr gave some detailed instructions on making your own out of a trashscan somewhere else...
Perhaps you simply need a reactor on the return side of the wet/dry, see Ghorig's site for details:

http://www.aquaticscape.com./articles/co2reactor.htm