Email from Seachem Laboratories Reguarding the effects of Flourish Excel

[Jag1980]

Email response from Seachem:

" To be completely honest with you, the only plant that we have come across that reacts negatively to Flourish Excel is Anacharis. Anacharis is a particularly sensitive species (known to be sensitive to high temperature, trace copper, formaldehyde etc.). Though there is no copper or formaldehyde in Excel, one person did notice that his Anacharis did not respond well to the product. I'm not sure if you have any of these in your aquarium, but if you do then perhaps try dosing the Excel a little less often. We actually have only received this complaint one time regarding the Excel, as most notice tremendous effects on their plants. Did you notice these negative effects only after beginning to dose the Excel? I ask only because some products that are on the market to re-mineralize RO water are sodium chloride-based and tend to melt the leaves on plants(Equilibrium is not). There are no plans to re-formulate the Excel, as we typically receive positive comments and also experience extreme benefits from Excel in our tanks here in the office. This is a completely unique product, in which the active ingredient mimics photosynthetic intermediates, thus minimizing energy output by the plant to take in a carbon source. If you could possibly provide us with the species that are not responding well to the product, then perhaps this will be useful information that we can pass on in case others have similar experiences. We appreciate your taking the time to provide us with this info, so that we may keep a list of particularly sensitive plants in order to help others. "

I heard of a few types of plants that do not do well with Excel, so I wrote them a email asking about this.
If anyone knows what species of plants do not do well with Excel please post here and give a description on how you know that it is from Excel and not just the plant condition itself.

If no one complains then it will never get changed for the better of "ALL" our plants.

If anything it would be nice to have a small list of plants that do not do well with Excel. Not every product is perfect, but this might help the product get to that point.

[Hooked Newbie]

Very cool that they responded. I have had corkscrew val totally melt. I quit dosing Excel in that tank and it's coming back. I didn't keep logs or detailed info, but there is zero doubt in my mind as to the cause. All my other plants seem to benefit from it.

[gmh]

I have Italian Val that melted down to a couple of inches after adding Excell. It still sent out runners which also grew to a couple of inches.
I have not used Excell for monthes now but the Val is still 2 or 3 inches long. Wierd. Can't swear it was the product but that's my best guess.
My other Val (Contortion I think) melted back just a little but recovered pretty well after I stopped with the Excell.

[DarkDH]

Would a reduced dose prevent as much melting and still supply the nutrients?

[gustavo85]

I had like a 4 inch radius of anacharis, (a bit more than half a foot of my tank covered with it), and when I used Excel it all turned light brown;DEAD! In just one dose, in just two days! I was so mad!

[phanmc]

I've had Excel wipe out a tank with riccia, mini riccia, and mini pellia. The reason I believe it was Excel was because they were growing prior, a very rapid deterioration of the plants, and other plants are healthy.

Tom Barr offered the idea that plants without stomata, like liverworts and elodea, are susceptible to excel poisoning. This doesn't explain the val melting though, since vals do have stomata.

[calivivarium1]

Interestingly, the Riccia I have growing in my paludarium(not much at this point, but it is spreading) doesn't seem to be bothered by my daily dosing of excel.

[gmh]

DarkDH I believe you would still get benefit with reduced dosing of Excell. In fact I should have pointed out that my Vals stunted on me after I had double dosed the Excell a couple of times in hopes of getting rid of a hair algae outbreak.

[Jag1980]

My Val's where 18" when I first got them and while dosing with Excel they have died like I was trying to grow them in the toilet. I had to cut most leaves so far down they are only 2" to 3" and the others leaves slowly died until I stopped dosing with Excel.
My other Val's I got from a different pet store where not affected as badly but where only 5" in height, they would not grow any taller at all and put out some runners. Runner growth rate about 1" in 48 hours with my CO2.
I notice most of the bad results within 48 hours of the large weekly dose of Excel recommended on the dosing chart.
I have not used Excel for over a week and been using smaller doses of CO2 from my CO2 yeast generated DIY system and see nothing but great results and lots of new runners and my Val's are all growing taller now within a couple days, no more melting of the leaves.

My Hornwort did not do well with the large dose of Excel either, but it did ok with the normal daily dose recommended my Seachem's dosing chart.

I also been having problem with my Brazilian Pennywart, not sure if this was a cause of Excel, but it was slowing dying little more each day until I only had about 5 leaves left out of about 30. I stopped using the excel and the dying stopped but no new growth.. It almost seems that it melted the root system off but I could be wrong.

My Anubis was doing just fine with Excel.

[Hooked Newbie]

Let this thread run for awhile and then email them the link. There seems to be a common theme.

[Starry]

My Crypts have mostly melted this week (Crypt wendtii I believe, but they're brown, not green), which is weird because I've had them for ~5 years and the ONLY time they ever melted was immediately after I got them. And my tank has been through a lot of moves and other upsets.
I can't be 100% sure that it's the Excel, though. I've been dosing 1-2 mL Excel daily in my 10-gal for about 2-3 weeks, and an additional capful at water changes. The melting only happened about 2-3 weeks after starting, and I've also majorly changed lighting, CO2 and fertilization at about the same time I started Excel dosing. So, I can't be sure it's the Excel, but these plants have never reacted this way to any other changes in water source/condition or ferts. This is my first time using Excel in any appreciable amounts.

[Mgamer20o0]

vals are known to melt my excel. i had sags that were fine with excel. i really dont use it much but i am sure with a few clicks they could see all the people with problems.

phanmc some people dont like riccia in their tank it hitch hikes on if excel kills it that might be a good thing lol......

[Fordtrannyman]

Email response from Seachem:

" To be completely honest with you, the only plant that we have come across that reacts negatively to Flourish Excel is Anacharis. Anacharis is a particularly sensitive species (known to be sensitive to high temperature, trace copper, formaldehyde etc.). Though there is no copper or formaldehyde in Excel, one person did notice that his Anacharis did not respond well to the product. I'm not sure if you have any of these in your aquarium, but if you do then perhaps try dosing the Excel a little less often. We actually have only received this complaint one time regarding the Excel, as most notice tremendous effects on their plants. Did you notice these negative effects only after beginning to dose the Excel? I ask only because some products that are on the market to re-mineralize RO water are sodium chloride-based and tend to melt the leaves on plants(Equilibrium is not). There are no plans to re-formulate the Excel, as we typically receive positive comments and also experience extreme benefits from Excel in our tanks here in the office. This is a completely unique product, in which the active ingredient mimics photosynthetic intermediates, thus minimizing energy output by the plant to take in a carbon source. If you could possibly provide us with the species that are not responding well to the product, then perhaps this will be useful information that we can pass on in case others have similar experiences. We appreciate your taking the time to provide us with this info, so that we may keep a list of particularly sensitive plants in order to help others. "

I heard of a few types of plants that do not do well with Excel, so I wrote them a email asking about this.
If anyone knows what species of plants do not do well with Excel please post here and give a description on how you know that it is from Excel and not just the plant condition itself.

If no one complains then it will never get changed for the better of "ALL" our plants.

If anything it would be nice to have a small list of plants that do not do well with Excel. Not every product is perfect, but this might help the product get to that point.

You can go hear for all your Seachem questions and answers.
http://plantgeek.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=33

[rich815]

My val grow fine dosing Excel at recommended dosages. It's when I over-dose Excel to combat BBA that my vals melt.

[Riiz]

I answered your mirror-thread in MFK, but I'll repeat it.

I like Excel as is, the plants that are affected by it are well documented in Plant-specific forums, and as a product is actually very good. But I dont think its in their best interest to change a formula that melts a few species but allows you to grow another 100 species, where you dont or cant have the use of pressurized CO2.

[robbob2112]

overdose to combat algae caused all the leaves on my hornwort to come off in a few hours. I dunno how it would have done at regular doses (since mine was all gone), but I heard a number of people complaining about it with hornwort.

[Sploke]

vals are known to melt my excel.

:screwy: Those are some pretty lethal vals you're growing there, MG :p:

[jmhart]

The only negative effects I've noticed from Excel are from when I don't "dose as directed".

I'm pretty happy with it in normal doses. Don't really care for anacharis anyway.

[Hooked Newbie]

I answered your mirror-thread in MFK, but I'll repeat it.

I like Excel as is, the plants that are affected by it are well documented in Plant-specific forums, and as a product is actually very good. But I dont think its in their best interest to change a formula that melts a few species but allows you to grow another 100 species, where you dont or cant have the use of pressurized CO2.

I agree completely, but Seachem should have the species documented as well and provide that list on their website IMO.

[Riiz]

I agree completely, but Seachem should have the species documented as well and provide that list on their website IMO.

You would have to put that list on the bottle too, cause I think most first timers wouldnt check out the site first.

[Hooked Newbie]

You would have to put that list on the bottle too, cause I think most first timers wouldnt check out the site first.

Or a simple note to "Please check www.seachem.com (http://www.seachem.com) for species which may be adversely affected".

[RanchuRick]

Great thread. Now I know what plants not to buy.

[jpappy789]

I have been dosing excel on and off and never had any negative effects with it...even the vals were fine. However, I wasn't dosing the "recommended" amount at the time...now I have stepped it up but still nothing out of the ordinary yet.

[rsanz]

In my experience, Anacharis and Guppy Grass have both melted in the presence of Excel. It does wonders for the Java Fern and Moss, and Anubias. I've just introduced Green Cabomba to the tank, so what Excel does to that species remains to be seen.

[DebbyS]

The Doctors didn't have Kent Freshwater fertilizer when I ordered recently (I couldn't find it locally, either), so I ordered Flourish Excel instead. I haven't used it yet, I was just thinking ahead (price might go up as oil prices rise). Wouldn't you know, though, I have some anarchis that seems to be happy -- though usually I buy some, it thrives, then it fades away and I realize I don't have any anymore so I buy more. Maybe it was the Kent's? Maybe anarchis doesn't like any fertilizer? Maybe it overeats, soaking up nitrites and fertilizer and such, and dies happy...? :)

[rich815]

The Doctors didn't have Kent Freshwater fertilizer when I ordered recently (I couldn't find it locally, either), so I ordered Flourish Excel instead.

These two items are not the same. The Kent Freshwater fertilizer is micro-nutirents and is a fertilizer. The Seachem Flourish Excel is a product to help provide bioavailable organic carbon to plants. The closest things to Kent Freshwater fertilizer would be Seachem Flourish.

[finz]

"...I ask only because some products that are on the market to re-mineralize RO water are sodium chloride-based and tend to melt the leaves on plants(Equilibrium is not)...."

Anyone with experience on this ??

[Squawkbert]

In my experience, Anacharis and Guppy Grass have both melted in the presence of Excel. ...

I've got a 5.5g RCS tank that I use Excel in (at appropriate or even lower dosages) - and I've pulled gallons of guppy grass from it.

I think, that at high enough levels, Excel can and will kill any plant, so the rule is to stick to suggested dosing or, if you're using it to help control algea, bump it up slowly...

[Jag1980]

So it seems the end result is the Val's are the only plant that have definite issue with Excel?

[Fordtrannyman]

I think, that at high enough levels, Excel can and will kill any plant, so the rule is to stick to suggested dosing or, if you're using it to help control algea, bump it up slowly...

I just learned a $25 lesson.....
Overdosing Excel to eradicate Planaria in Suesswassertang
Will MELT it!:angryfire:
Softball size just melted away like an ice cube.

[Riiz]

I just learned a $25 lesson.....
Overdosing Excel to eradicate Planaria in Suesswassertang
Will MELT it!:angryfire:
Softball size just melted away like an ice cube.

That sounds right, I always thought liverworts were sensitive to excel, same with riccia. There has been discussion that excel will kill anything without a stoma, dont remember which forum I was reading it on.

[Squawkbert]

That sounds right, I always thought liverworts were sensitive to excel, same with riccia. There has been discussion that excel will kill anything without a stoma, dont remember which forum I was reading it on.

That's what I've read too - Bryophytes beware of Excel in normal or larger doses.

Planaria control w/ Excel ?!? never heard of such a thing... less feeding is the easiest way to control Planaria.

[Jag1980]

I sent them back a email today, hopefully they will respond.

[Jag1980]

Here's what they said..

"Thank you for posting your experiences. As we said
before, we cannot foresee every possibility that may
occur, as each tank is different in its own right. We
will pass this information onto the people here at
Seachem that make these decisions, and hopefully we can
conduct a more controlled experiment in a laboratory
setting. For the time being, thank you for sharing your
experiences with us and with others."

[Jag1980]

I responded back saying this:

ok thanks

Here's another link regarding issues with Vals and Excel
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Vallisneria+with+excel (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Vallisneria+with+excel)
As you can see with all the post all over the internet, out of about 100 people posting about their Vals and Excel, 95 of them all have the same problems... Not sure how much more proof there really needs to be about this issue.

Smoking causes cancer, but not every smoker will get lung cancer.

[TLT]

Fordtrannyman, if you want to eradicate planaria, I hear Fluke tabs help. I haven't heard of using Excel though.

I agree with Riiz, Jmhart and Squawkbert. Excel does wonders for more plants than it harms and dosing properly or less than the recommended amount will probably have no detrimental effects, while overdosing could pushing sensitive plants over the edge.

Smoking doesn't necessarily cause cancer if you consider the multi-hit theory. Genes and environmental factors also influence whether someone gets cancer, whether they smoke or not. Maybe that's why some people report no problems with their plants while others' have melted with Excel.

[Riiz]

I responded back saying this:

ok thanks

Here's another link regarding issues with Vals and Excel
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Vallisneria+with+excel (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Vallisneria+with+excel)
As you can see with all the post all over the internet, out of about 100 people posting about their Vals and Excel, 95 of them all have the same problems... Not sure how much more proof there really needs to be about this issue.

Smoking causes cancer, but not every smoker will get lung cancer.

So what outcome do you want from Seachem, a reformulation, a warning label, or compensation? I guess this really would just help the first timers, but in a plant forum you're just beating a dead horse with this thread and the 10 others you started in other forums.

[Jag1980]

So what outcome do you want from Seachem, a reformulation, a warning label, or compensation? I guess this really would just help the first timers, but in a plant forum you're just beating a dead horse with this thread and the 10 others you started in other forums.

I posted in 3 other forums to get a list of plants that do not do well.

I warning label on the bottle would be nice or more information on there website about plants that do not do well or the cautions that should be taken with certain plants.

What dead horse am I beating? If you want any kind of action you have to take some kind of action...

There is obviously a small problem with their product, with this being brought to their attention, they can possibly try to fix the formula to make it more compatible. You think this product they made can not be made better? Is the the last product that we will ever see for a CO2 substitute?

If no one complains about it why would they change it?
As they said before, no one complains about plants not doing well, but obviously there is a problem with a certain species of plants and people aren't reporting this issue. They are still in denial about it, why do you think that is? not enough complaints.

What if a product for your aquarium only killed one of two types of fish?
Would the answer be to just not get that type of fish becaus ewhat you read on a forum? or would you want them to change the formula if they can or at least put a warning label on the bottle saying what could happen to these type of fish if you use this product?

I shouldn't have to baby talk about the purpose of my email for everyone to understand why I sent it.

[Jag1980]

Here's the last email of what they said:

"Very good point about the cancer. Thank you for
continuing to correspond with us; we really want to ensure
success in the hobby"

[jmhart]

I've used Excel in tanks with Vals and not had a problem, so I don't think you can say "Excel melts Vals" across the board. I think a reformulation, at least of the product "Excel" would only end up being a diluted form, or a reduced dosing recommendation. A different chemical could be found, and indeed bringing problems like this to their attention can only inspire.

I think that most likely they could simply add a line about "not comaptable with all species" on the bottle and/or include information on the website similar to information pertaining to shrimp and excel.

It does seem, however, that the tone in your emails is a little aggressive, almost like you are preparing for a fight about it with them before they even disagree. I find that in the corporate world, and really life in general, it's always much more productive to try to remain positive and construction, rather than critical.

[Jag1980]

The message gets across no matter what tone I use so it doesn't really matter since I'm not looking for compensation.

When so many people have issues with this combination and they like to partially deny it, it is a little irritating. They are making a public product, we are all not Amano's having all these perfect water perimeters or whatever. We all dose with the limited info they give us about the product they sell.

1 out of 20 people don't have a problem with the combination, That sounds like a problem to me.

[jmhart]

When you correspond with an attack voice, people automatically go into defense mode. Even here, where most people have supported your case, you are being very aggressive.

You have admitted that you are trying to get them to do something, either provide more information in the form of a warning or change the formula. I guarantee you that in life you'll be much more effective at persuading people if you drop the aggression.


I think that a quick sampling of a the internet will reveal that a lot of people have issues with Excel and Vals, but it's not exactly quantitative results. However, now that you've brought it their attention, they can conduct further more relevant tests. I don't think Seachem has a conspiracy to commit genecide on the valisneria species.

[calivivarium1]

I dose excel in my paludarium at about 2x the recommended dosage and have no problems with my Riccia, for what its worth. I wouldn't imagine that Seachem will do anything with/about their Excel formula until they can replicate the "melting" in their labs. As of right now Seachem has no idea why plants are supposedly melting when Excel is dosed. Is it an overdose? Is it due to a reaction with something else in the water? Is it too much too soon? A label is worthless until Seachem can get more info and even better if Seachem can conisistently replicate the "melting" in the lab.

[jmhart]

I dose excel in my paludarium at about 2x the recommended dosage and have no problems with my Riccia, for what its worth. I wouldn't imagine that Seachem will do anything with/about their Excel formula until they can replicate the "melting" in their labs. As of right now Seachem has no idea why plants are supposedly melting when Excel is dosed. Is it an overdose? Is it due to a reaction with something else in the water? Is it too much too soon? A label is worthless until Seachem can get more info and even better if Seachem can conisistently replicate the "melting" in the lab.


:clap: well said

[DarkDH]

I have lot's of Vals that I don't want to lose....

[Jag1980]

I dose excel in my paludarium at about 2x the recommended dosage and have no problems with my Riccia, for what its worth. I wouldn't imagine that Seachem will do anything with/about their Excel formula until they can replicate the "melting" in their labs. As of right now Seachem has no idea why plants are supposedly melting when Excel is dosed. Is it an overdose? Is it due to a reaction with something else in the water? Is it too much too soon? A label is worthless until Seachem can get more info and even better if Seachem can conisistently replicate the "melting" in the lab.


That's what I am trying to get them to do, because it seems that they have no idea that there was even this big of a problem, or maybe they do..

[Jag1980]

When you correspond with an attack voice, people automatically go into defense mode. Even here, where most people have supported your case, you are being very aggressive.

You have admitted that you are trying to get them to do something, either provide more information in the form of a warning or change the formula. I guarantee you that in life you'll be much more effective at persuading people if you drop the aggression.

I would like you to point of my aggression and my attack voice in my posts and responses to others? It seems that it is so disturbing that you have to call me out on it more than once..

[DeeSeven]

my 2 cents

I use just about the whole seachem line and honestly never ran into a single problem. I've had vals....swords...ricca...java moss...ferns etc. etc.

My tip
(again it works for Me)

I dose daily with the seachem lab but instead of a capful like it says for a 50 gal tank (I think) I dose 1/4 teaspoon then do a 50% water change weekly..yes I know sounds like alot of work but ~shrugs~ I've had no problems

[zanytomato]

I dose Excel regularly and my vals are growing like crazy-- I have a few different species and each are doing remarkably well. Prior to Excel, they were relatively weak, so I'm left to think I'm one of the exceptions for whom vals respond very well.

I have noticed that my Amazon Sword does not do near as well since I started the Excel. Could be coincidental, hard to say.

[Jag1980]

A post is created to help find a specific problem in a product, almost everyone has the same problem, after so many responses come in on how most everyone agrees with this problem and the final message is delivered, everyone comes out saying that the problem is not a problem and basically the product is fine, regarding the problems that where suppose to be everyones issue...

I looked everyone for people having success with Excel and Val's, I found only a couple people out of the whole Internet, Just in this topic I see after I submitted the email that there is more people than I have ever seen that their Val's are doing just fine in this topic I created..


End of Topic. Close it

[DeeSeven]

A post is created to help find a specific problem in a product, almost everyone has the same problem, after so many responses come in on how most everyone agrees with this problem and the final message is delivered, everyone comes out saying that the problem is not a problem and basically the product is fine, regarding the problems that where suppose to be everyones issue...

I looked everyone for people having success with Excel and Val's, I found only a couple people out of the whole Internet, Just in this topic I see after I submitted the email that there is more people than I have ever seen that their Val's are doing just fine in this topic I created..


End of Topic. Close it

thank god

[plantbrain]

thank god

True:)

For the record, I've not found issues with Vals and Excel, but Egeria densa, Elodea, Hydrilla, most certainly.

Regards,
Tom Barr