Nitrates and algal blooms...

[joe schmoe]

All things being equal, are the two directly related??

I've got a decent algal bloom going on. Not too much hair algae - maybe one or two leaves on my Java Ferns and on the front glass where it's easily removed.

My puzzle is that I have nearly NO Nitrates (mayyyybe 2.5PPM). I haven't changed any water in 12 days (vacation). I have a decent-sized fish load and I feel like I'm overfeeding.

Changes made just prior to algal bloom: +8 fish, +2 pieces of African wood for the Java Ferns rather than being planted in the sand, +two VERY large Anubias (I have NO idea which species) and I added a bunch of artificial plants (things were looking a little sparse). The plants had some dried algae on them from the previous tank...but I gave them a good hose-down.

A search told me my photoperiod was too long. It was 12 hours, so I just chaged the timer to allow a 9 hour photoperiod.






Is the bloom ONLY a result of the incorrect photoperiod?? Can this be a result of a lack of trace minerals from something like Flourish??

Click the link in my sig for tank specs and a pic taken tonight. As always...thanks for the newbie help.

[750t]

I think from what Ive gathered here and my own algea nightmares, you need alot more plants. Im sure others will reply. Read all these threads there is wealth of info here. Tim

[Richer]

I personally don't think its your photoperiod thats causing your algae bloom. My plant tanks have their lights on from 9am till 9pm everyday, and they're clear of algae.

We need more info on your tank. How many watts of lighting do you have? What is the size of your tank? Are you supplementing with CO2? What is your nutrient dosing routine (if you have one)?

-Richer

[joe schmoe]

No CO2, low light, low tech...see the tank profile for details :D. As for nutrients, I've dosed Flourish iron according to the directions on the bottle for the first time a few weeks ago...then a corresponding amount after the last water change 12 days ago. I've dosed either 10 or 15ml of Flourish roughly once a week...more or less following the directions on the bottle.

I'm still aiming to keep this a low-maintenance tank and to not go too overboard with nutrients/ferts/CO2.

Here's the URL to the profile in case you have sigs turned off: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16126

[djlen]

You make no mention of dosing anything but Traces, and extra Fe.
This will cause problems due to unbalanced fertilization.
Your 1.5watts/gal. is going to be a bit misleading due to the fact that it's CF which will act like closer to 2.5watts/gal.
You need to do water-changes more frequently, without 12 day gaps.
I agree with 750t about the amount of plants. With that lighting you need more stems and floaters.
This is, to my recollection, still a brand new set-up. Your bio-filter is immature and needs time to develop. In the meantime you need to get more plants and get them growing well. It's a bit tougher for them to compete without CO2.
I would compensate for that with more plants and as I said, some floaters to shade it. Water sprite and salvinia work great.

Back to the ferts. I would get a PO4 test kit and find out what you've got in the tank. Heavy feeding and inconsistent water changes can/will cause levels of many elements to get too high.
Lose the Fe for a while. It's only going to cause problems at this point. Get some K (in the supermarket as "No Salt/Nu Salt"). Start dosing that lightly (1/4 tsp. per 50 gal.) after WEEKLY-50% water change. Start dosing K AFTER getting more plants.
Test N and P. N should be at 5ppm and P should be at 0.5ppm. The Flourish you are dosing would be a good level if you had many, many more plants. I would cut back on that until you get them.
In short, the problem is that you have very good light, you are dosing an unbalanced amount of ferts, and you have very few plants to use the light and ferts........you're feeding the algae.
You have "green water". A blackout will get rid of it, but it will come back rapidly without the WCs and addressing the above issues.

Len

[joe schmoe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought water changes were, for the most part, to remove Nitrates...the end result of the biological cycle. What is the purpose of frequent (yes, weekly is frequent) water changes if Nitrates are nearly non-existant?? Besides physically removing the waterbourne algae, what am I acomplishing by changing 50% of the water every week??

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by joe schmoe
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought water changes were, for the most part, to remove Nitrates...the end result of the biological cycle.

Not on plant tanks. You actually want a small level of nitrAtes in a plant tank as a fertilizer. On every other kind of tank, yes, frequent water changes will indeed lower nitrAte levels.


What is the purpose of frequent (yes, weekly is frequent) water changes if Nitrates are nearly non-existant?? Besides physically removing the waterbourne algae, what am I acomplishing by changing 50% of the water every week??

You're making a "reset" of your tank's ferts, so that you can establish a regular routine of fertilization and clean water.

[joe schmoe]

Originally posted by Timmain42
You're making a "reset" of your tank's ferts, so that you can establish a regular routine of fertilization and clean water.

Hmmm. Seems like a waste to take out what I have to dose just for the sake of routine. There is no way to keep ferts/traces at acceptable levels without water changes?? There must be some other reason.

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by joe schmoe
There must be some other reason.

Reason #1: Because it works?

I'm sure with enough experimentation and frustration you could find another path that works, but this (the aforementioned Barr Method) works right out of the proverbial box.

And don't feel bad. I have to change out the entire volume of -your- tank for my weekly water changes. And I too live in a place where water is at a premium... but man do those plants grow. :)

[djlen]

First of all, as previously mentioned, you need more plants.
Then you need to find a balance. You do this by establishing a routine. Water-change, cleaning, pruning and re-fertilizing.
This keeps the combination of elements consistent. Many of us fertilize 2, 3, or more times a week because the amount of plants require the nutrients. However, by the end of the week there may be an over-abundance of certain nutrients. A water-change, as stated, re-sets the tank for the most part to it's original state.
By doing this and watching the tank's condition and the plant's growth we are free to tinker with dosages to optimize these conditions and keep the balance necessary to avoid the issues you are now experiencing.
Ideally, once you've learned the requirements of your tank, the plants will have used most of the nutrients you've given them during the week.
BTW, it's not always necessary to do a 50% change. I do one in my 40gal. because it has 3watts/gal. In a lower light situation I've found that MY 55 gal. with 1.5 watts/gal only needs 30% to keep the elements balanced. Other's tanks will be different than mine.
I have found that my tanks don't use nearly as much NO3 as they do PO4 only because of routinely testing and weekly re-setting.
I change the water in 4 tanks(a 10, a 40, and 2 55's) and add back all the nutrients they need in 45 Min's. It's not that difficult or time consuming.
Check the reaction of your fish after a weekly change and then tell me it's not worth it.

Len

[joe schmoe]

Originally posted by djlen
First of all, as previously mentioned, you need more plants.

Money aside...that's OK with me. I've been snooping around aquabotanic.com, but receiving that kind of package may be difficult for me.



Originally posted by djlen
However, by the end of the week there may be an over-abundance of certain nutrients. A water-change, as stated, re-sets the tank for the most part to it's original state.
How does this overabundance occur?? Is it a result of an action on the fishkeepers part?? Or is it something within the tank "system" itself??

[djlen]

Here's an example. I dose a bunch of K, twice a week and a dose of Fe daily. I test for neither of the two. K is relatively safe to overdose slightly and Fe test kits basically suck even if you buy the more expensive ones. Also, I dose a Traces twice a week and there are some elements in Trace mixes that can be dangerous if allowed to build up. Copper, for example.
Doing a weekly WC gives me the piece of mind that IF I have too much of something in the tank it will be removed or at least greatly diluted through the WC.
I am also a great believer in "clean" water. Fish can deal with just about any changes(within reason) if the water they reside in is clean. To me it's worth it just to see their, and also the plant's reaction to the change.
Plus, I enjoy doing it and with the Python it's just so easy. I wouldn't have a hobby I didn't enjoy working with.

Len

[joe schmoe]

Originally posted by djlen
Here's an example. I dose a bunch of K, twice a week and a dose of Fe daily. I test for neither of the two. K is relatively safe to overdose slightly and Fe test kits basically suck even if you buy the more expensive ones. Also, I dose a Traces twice a week and there are some elements in Trace mixes that can be dangerous if allowed to build up. Copper, for example.
NOW it makes more sense. I'm going to seriously look at buying a "plant assortment", and see if they can throw some Watersprite in.

I took the temporary Emperor 400 off the tank...I might as well while the tank is in a state of flux. I'm keeping the bio-wheels submerged in the tank just in case something goes seriously wrong. Maybe it's not good timing...but oh well.

Thanks to everyone who has helped so far. It's much appreciated.

[Starry]

Originally posted by djlen
I wouldn't have a hobby I didn't enjoy working with.

Len

Bingo! I never understood why people want a tank in the first place, if they never want to touch it? I look forward to weekends when I get to spend an hour with my tank. It's never a chore. If it is, maybe the hobby's wrong for the person. And that's very common. The other day at the LFS, a girl was asking how many more fish she could put in her 30-gal (she already had way too many, judging from what fish she listed). The guy gave her the answer she was looking for, so she proceeded to pick out pairs of 3 or 4 different fish. When she was told that one of those might tear her angel fish to pieces, she said " that's ok, they're just brats anyway." She also seemed sad that her dwarf frog might meet the same fate, but decided to go ahead with it anyway. Nice, huh?

Joe - As someone earlier pointed out, you can't test for many of the nutrients you need to put in. So, in the case of Fe, K and traces, you don't really know how much you have left at the end of the week. And you do NOT want iron building up over time, which can happen if you're dosing more than your plants are using. And no one can tell you how much to dose to get it right. Water changes seem hard at first, but eventually it will only take you a half an hour max. It's also a good time to take a close look at your tank and fish to catch any problems early.

There are people (eg. Diana Walstad, if you've read or heard of her book) who advocate low light, no CO2, no fert tanks, with only yearly water changes. This may work, but the results usually isn't what you're looking for. The choice of plants is VERY limited, growth is slow, and algae common. I also can't believe that fish are happy sitting in the same water for months. And you can't mix methods. Go one way or another, and stick with it. It's good that you're asking questions though. You should always understand exactly what you're doing and why. Only then can you start making good choices on your own.

Good luck :)

[joe schmoe]

I'm making one last ditch effort. I ordered a 60-plant low-light assortment from aquariumgardens.com. I asked if they could include some Water Sprite. Once they've been planted, I'll give them a few weeks. If things continue to be green...then I'll throw in the towel and get back to enjoying my fish sans live plants.