Fish dying.... don't know why...

[frazin78]

I am new to this board and I hope someone could spare a little knowledge on how I could possibly fix my problem. I have lost 3 fish in the 5 months. My water readings are all withing acceptable range. I have my tank for over 6 years now and I have never encoutered this problem before. I purchased a Valentiny puffer about 5 months ago. I slowly introduced into my tank by placing him in a container that would float on the top of my tank so the fish store water would slowly become at the same temperature as my tank. I would add about 10 ml of water ever hour until I was at a full 2 cups of water. I then placed him into a net and put him into my tank without dumping teh water he was just in into my tank. I fed them teh next day, a frozen marine mix and everyone was happy to eat. The following day everything was fine. The following morning to that day was a different story, the puffer was now dead without any traces of injuries nor any disease, He still had all of his color as well which meant it wasn't a long time that he had passed away. I have a 50 Gallon tank with a protein skimmer, a bio wheel and two powerheads that feeld the units just mentioned. I have an Eheim canister filter as well. I have 1 yellow tang, 2 damsels and 1 clown. Once I found the dead puffer I did my regular 5 Gallon watter change, and kept the same gravity of 1.021 and the temperature remains at 77 degrees Fahrenheit. A few days later a damsel died but he died during the middle of the day and he his eyes where already eaten. I was very stunned that a damsel would die. I test the water and everything was ok. The Nitrites and Nitrates where a little higher then usual but nothing my fish stores or my fish friends said would cause the problem. I then quickly change another 5 gallons to reduce the nitritas and nitrates. I proceeded to do my weekly 5 gallon water change and just recenly I introduced a Procupine puffer. Not two days later my oldest fish of 1.5 years passed away, he seemed to have a white cyst growing on his stomach but this may have been there for his entire life and I never noticed it. Now my porcupine puffer only ate on the two first feedings that i have given him. He has not eaten in almost 1.5 weeks. He simply puts the food in his mouth and spits it out. The yellow tang and damsel are still fine and eating. I am really woried that something is killing my fish 1 by 1 and I don't see any symptoms besides the fish not eating then just dying. Please help.

Thank you

[MonoSebaelover]

Welcome to Aquaria Central. If you have fish friends that tell you that Nitrite is not toxic and harmful then they have no clue what they are talking about. Nitrite is more deadly than ammonia is. If you have nitrite in your tank then that is what is killing the fish. At no time after a tank is established should one see ammonia or nitrite. This is definitely what killed the first puffer and will definitly kill the second if not dealth with asap. Puffers are very sensitive fish and they can't handle nitrite. My advice is to see why after 6 years you have nitrite in your tank. Something is way wrong there. I also hope that you intend on upgrading and researched the fish before you bought them, cause that cute baby Porky puff will grow to a 15 inch monster requiring a minimum of 125 gallons. Anyway, I would advise get the nitrites to 0, then feed the puffer some meaty foods from the local grocery store and he should be a happy camper. Anyway, hope this helps.

[wayne]

Actually nitrite is more toxic in acid water than alkaline, whereas ammonia is far more toxic in alkaline. However, it should be at zero. Also what actually is your nitrate at, what do you consideracceptable.
How much substrate, how much live rock?
How big, and what type damsels? My bet is the damsels have gotten big and are killing any newcomers, weakened anyway by high background nitrate levels?

[frazin78]

Hi and Thank you for your response.

To answer a few of your questions. I have about 30 lbs of Live Rock and two fossilized coral in the tank one is 25 lbs the other 2 lbs. I have very little susbrate at the bottom of the tank, I used crushed coral. I have just enough to cover the bottom to not be able to see glass and that is it. I was told that too much can trap alot of junk and cause my nitrates to go up.

I do apologize but my nitrites are at 0. I was looking at my water testing kits and for some strange reason my nitrites and nitrates stayed stuck in my head. My nitrate levels are about 40ppm but I am not the greatest when it comes to comparing the test tube to a color chart. My ammonia is at 0.

My damsel is the tinniest one in the tank. The Damsel is blue with a yellow tail. The true boss of the tank was my clown, he would let everyone know in the first few minutes of the tank that he was boss then he would leave everyone alone.

Thank you

[OrionGirl]

How often do you do water changes? 5 gallons is a very small amount, unless done frequently. What temp is the tank at? 40 ppm nitrates is high, and may indicate that other, less testable toxins are building up as well. How often do you vaccum the cc?

I would raise the salinity a bit--1.023-1.025 is a more natural level for the fish. You'll definitely need to upgrade tank size to accomodate the puffer.

[frazin78]

I try to change the water weekly and I know it's not always on time. But recently it has been every 8 days, for the last month. I vacum the cc every single time I do a water change.

I changed 6 gallons last night and I will be doing another 6 tonight to lower my nitrates.

I will try raise the salinity by 0.001 every week to not stress the fish too much. If that is too much or not enough please let me know.

The puffer is only 1.5 inches in length, I am not worried about tank size right now, but I will eventually be building my own house in the near future and a much bigger tank will be used for all these guys. I plan on having a nice big fish room right beside my tank and the tank will be part of my wall. :) It's already wife approved. :)

Jc

[reefpicker]

Hi,

I do not know much about puffers but in general I believe they are aggressive fish.

I believe you had a time bomb in terms of the fish species mix you had in your tank... Damsels, clowns, tang and a puffer...

I have sometimes seen in fish that if the new comer is also aggressive the resident aggressor becomes even more aggressive.

I am a little bit concerned about a 40ppm reading in a 50g tank. Sounds to me like you have accumulated a lot of organics. This could also be a problem.

Bio-wheels + skimmers = Bad choice of filtration. I do not recommend having bio-wheels AND skimmers. Ideally, a reef tank should have only the skimmer and a lot of LR. Also, crushed coral can become a nutrient sink...

With so much LR, and a protein skimmer, your nitrates should be 0...

I would be more careful with tank mate choice next time. I would also elminate the biowheels... And do some water changes, cross your fingers, and wait to see if those nitrates go down... :)


What are you feeding?

[frazin78]

Ok, this is a first when I hear to take off my bio wheel. May I ask why it's a bad combination of the biowheel and the protein skimmer?

This tank is a fish only tank, I have no corrals at all. I only have fish, Live rock, crushed coral about 1/8 of an inch int he front of the tank and the back half is just glass. I am not too sure what you been by reef tank, as I was under the impression a reef tank contains live coral and such.

Valantini puffers and purcupine pufers are extremely docile compared to a dogface puffer for example. My tank is in my home office right beside my desk and I haven't noticed any aggresion in the tank at all besides the clown going after the damsel during feeding time.

Where could these organics be stored? Should I clean out my canister filter and see if anything is sitting at the bottom of that?

Thanks

Jc

[reefpicker]

Ouch, canister filter ! :) Another not-so-good filter :P

There is a certain logic to all of these, you see...

The idea behind a protein skimmer, at least in principle, is that it will skim out organics BEFORE the bio-filter breaks them into nitrates and such.

It is not that bad to have a bio-wheel in your system but consider this... While the biofilter in your LR breaks organics and allows some of the Nitrates it generates to be transformed into N2, (and then just goes out of the system, puff!), and the skimmer prevents your organics from even becoming nitrates, the biowheel transforms the organics into nitrates, and then just dumps them into the water where they are going to have a hard time penetrating the LR and becoming N2.

This is again in principle. Now, I am a scientist and I will tell you that some of this sound bogus, but it is part of reef tank lore....

I have a tank with a skimmer and LR... While the biowheel was there I had high Nitrates... Maybe they just went away because the algae grew, I had mushrooms, etc, but the bottom line is YOU DO NOT NEED A BIOWHEEL IF YOU HAVE LR!!!!!!!

In the hobby there is a tendency to just mix and match all filtering philosophies. You are mixing mini-reef (i.e biowheel) with classic german-style Berlin system (LR+Skimmer)... To me this is not good in terms of money spent and probable conflicts...

Same thing goes for the canister. That is another story... Next posting maybe...

[reefpicker]

BTW definitively open and clean your canister. that is a most...

[frazin78]

Originally posted by reefpicker
Ouch, canister filter ! :) Another not-so-good filter :P

, but the bottom line is YOU DO NOT NEED A BIOWHEEL IF YOU HAVE LR!!!!!!!



Does it matter the age of the LR? I have had this rock for over 4 years now. Is there a capacity as to how much Nitrates this rock absorbs?

As for the mis matches systems, this was poor recommendation 5 years ago at the fish store. When your loosing fish you will listen to just about anyone to try and help save your fish.

For future reference what is the Best Filter besides the LR and skimmer or is that all I need?

Thank you

[reefpicker]

hi,

No, LR has no limits in terms of "absorbing" nitrates.

The whole idea behind having LR is that the deep pores of the LR can harbor anaerobic (non-oxygen liking) bacteria which can transforms the nitrates back to nitrogen.

There is no good or bad filter... Just learn one "philosphy" and stick to it. Plenums, mini-reef or LR+skimmer all have there advantages...


But going back to your problem, you should clean your canister and make sure that it is not a sink for organics.


Now as I am re-thinking this whole thing again, I wonder if your puffer released any toxins (you noted this death occured first and the others only days afterwards).

Again, I am not a puffer expert... I know some of this fish carry a powerful neural toxin, tetraodotoxin...

Did your skimmer foamed a lot after the death of this animal? how is your skimmer doing anyway?

HOw are things going with your fish today??? has anything change during this time??

[frazin78]

Thanks for the LR info, I think i might splurge a little and get a few more pounds.. :)

I cleaned out my filter real good,as I thought it was filthy and it took me awhile to clean everything out. Yes I am a bad bad man.. ;) I have put a 2 month reminder to clean my filter out in my daytime and outlook, so chances are this will help in the future. I haven't cleaned my filter in over 11 months... yes again.. I am a very bad man...

I didn't notice any extra foaming in the protein skimmer at the time of death nor shortly after but thanks for the possible explanation.

Today all the fish are great I finally lower my nitrates to 20 ppm rather then 40. This was acccomplished by doing a 30% water change then followed by a 10% 2 days after. I also found in my aquarium box some Kent Marine Nitrate sponge. I know I shouldn't depend on this but I put some in my filter as a procaution. Better safe then sorry. I learned my lesson this time about forgeting those few water changes mreally cuase me a heart ache.

Thanks for al the help.

My first experience at Aquaria Central was a good one and I will continue to visit the board as often as I can.

[wayne]

It's not so tricky to understand filtration in your situation.

Protein skimmers attempt (and often succeed ) in removing organics before they enter the nitrogen cycle.

Live rock processes ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate in the outer part of the rock where water flow around an into the rock allows for aerobic conditions.
Further in the rock where conditions are anaerobic, reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas can occur, removing nitrate.
Similar processes occur in the shallow and deep parts of sand beds, whether or not a plenum is present.

Biowheels and cannisters have a problem. They are very , very efficient in the aerobic, oxygen rich part of the nitrogen cycle, ending in nitrate, thus they are a good filtrationa lternative for predators. However they have no means whatsoever to reduce the nitrate to nitrogen gas, and thus it accumulates, unless other means are found to deal with it. Neglecting to clean your filters will only exagerate this problem - clean those cannisters weekly - get those organics out of the system before they decay!

[BrianH]

Your getting great advice regarding biofilter duplication. However, IMHO nitrates of 40ppm is not enough to kill fish. Lowering the nitrates is good idea but you may want to keep looking for other answers for your fish deaths.

Brian

[frazin78]

Originally posted by BrianH
Your getting great advice regarding biofilter duplication. However, IMHO nitrates of 40ppm is not enough to kill fish. Lowering the nitrates is good idea but you may want to keep looking for other answers for your fish deaths.

Brian

I found out my testing kit was past it's due date. I had no idea until my gf pointed it out. It was at 40 ppm whith a past due testing kit, ( Feb 2001) :( LFS didn't even want to take it back because I used it 6 times already. After I purchased a new testing kit that expires in 2006. :) It showed up as 60 ppm. That was right before I did my 30 and then 10% water change which eventually brought it down to 20 ppm. The water changes and the nitrate sponge probably helped in this matter.

I think the puffer died because of poor water quality and it being stressed out during the move. The Damsel, I really have no idea. I think that maybe my clown died of old age.. is that even possible?

Thanks

Jc

[BrianH]

Even 60ppm should not be deadly for fish. I know some people who have FO tanks with nitrates as high as 100ppm without any fish problems. I would not recommend leaving nitrates this high but I have seen this without fish deaths.

You may be on the money with the move. The stree of moving the fish could have definitely contributed to fish deaths. As for clown fish, one of my lfs's has a percula that is 10+ years old.

Brian

[reefpicker]

Wow, I am happy that this discussion has turned in so many interesting details.


High nitrates are not usually toxic to fish, even wild caught fish. I suspect that high nitrates can contribute a lot to fish stress but it is probably difficult to assess.

I do not think that your clown died of "old age".

All this deaths could be related or maybe they are unrelated. It is very difficult to know for certain. I am however inclined to think that they are at least part of a chain of events. How they are linked is a mystery.

It is interesting that all this deaths occured within days of new additions to the tank. You say that this fish seem to get along pretty well. If I had to guess what this patterns of death points out to and who the culprit is, this is what I would say...

The social structure of a classroom is altered when a new bully arrives. He will pick up on someone new or perhaps on the former bully. Similary, if a "nerdy" guy comes in, the former bullied nerd might get a break and feel stronger, even to the point of teasing the newcomer.

I have seen this happen in a tank. A new comer always affects the pecking order of a tank, the territory etc. Former "friends" can become enemies and new alliances are formed ;) The result are always strange fish deaths.

That the tang could be the culprit would be my best guess, but then again this is only a guess. The truth might never be known ;)

Bottom line: Your nitrates are not OK, but not enough to kill a clownfish. (I have kept clowns at much higher ppms). Your clown was too young to die of old age, espicaly if it was a tank-raised animal. You did good by cleaning that canister. You should clean it more frequently or take it out of your system IMO.

High nitrates are a good reason to wary always. Although they have to be extremely high for a long time (chronic exposure is the real killer), it is generally an indicator of tank shores neglect and high nutrient load in the system.

BTW It is a real pleasure to be of help to you! ;) Please do post in this forum. No question is a stupid question!

[frazin78]

My plan for the next 6 months is as follows:

Add 30 lbs of Live Rock

Add 1 inch of Live Sand / remove the crushed coral at this time

Add New AquaC Ramora protein skimmer

Add a R/O filter for my tank

Fill my Canister filter with the very small pieces of LR instead of the ceramic Eheim tubes and I might keep the syndered glass to to promote some bactaria growth from the LR.

I hope all of the steps above will increase the life span of my fish. I already love this hobby alot that I decided to put everything into it now. I can't wait for my x-mas gifts. :)

Thanks for all the help, it was greatly apprecited.

Jc