View Full Version : Cycling my Bathtub!
Luca Brazzi
11-27-2002, 8:16 PM
Ok... Heres what Im doing. I dont yet have a tank, but I do have some new bio-balls that will be used in my soon to be sump. So rather than wait till the tank and sump are built, I decided to attempt to start cycling the media in my bathtub. I have the balls in a container that has holes in the bottom. This container is sitting in the tub (which is about half filled with water) on some drinking glasses to keep the bio media above the waterline. Im using a Mag Drive pump connected to a showerhead on a hose to trickle water over the balls. I also have a powerhead in the tub to circluate the water, and 2 150 watt heaters. I went out today and bought a test kit and was able to get the ammonia level to 5 ppm by adding 10 capfuls of clear ammonia. One problem that I may have is that in order to completely stop up the drain, I had to use a piece of plastic and some plumbers putty. I think the plubmers putty raised the pH (which is now at 8.6). I read the ingredients of the putty and it contains limestone so....
Do you think this will work? Will the plumbers putty cause a problem?
morleyz
11-27-2002, 8:24 PM
I'd be more worried about soap residue than the pH. I assume you wouldn't be adding the water to the sump anyway, so the media would probably be OK with the switch. If you had any residue of anti-bacteria soap, I'd be willing to be you'd have a hard time getting an established colony.
I think I'm more concerned with your lack of bathing. :eek:
Luca Brazzi
11-27-2002, 9:22 PM
LOL Zeb.
Hmmmmm lemme see (sniff, sniff, .... sniff)... Nope, Im still at least a week away from cheese. How long will cycling take?
Anyway... I guess Ill find out if I never see any nitrites.
ArkyLady
11-27-2002, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
I sleep with the fishes
Looks like you may be bathing with them too soon :D
it's taken my tanks anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks to cycle.
crenwelge
11-28-2002, 12:21 AM
this does not sound like a good idea:eek:
morleyz
11-28-2002, 7:25 AM
Here's an idea...why not just get a rubbermaid container or something similar. That way you know it'll be clean and contaminant free.
125gJoe
11-28-2002, 7:44 AM
Thank you Luca for posting this...
I fired up my printer to keep this 'moment' saved!
Right now I'm trying to figure out new uses for my toilet.
(...just kidding on the toilet thing - really!)
:D
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but toilets were used for ages to keep tubifex and bloodworm alive. Too late to file for a new patent.:)
Luca Brazzi
11-28-2002, 5:52 PM
Ok then... so... from the sound of things... the only thing I have to worry about is if there is something already in the tub that will kill any bacteria that tries to grow... right? In which case, I will never see any nitrites. If this is the worst case, then Its still a go because I will only end up having to cycle the media in the sump (after I build it)
125gJoe
11-28-2002, 7:35 PM
Originally posted by MP
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but toilets were used for ages to keep tubifex and bloodworm alive. Too late to file for a new patent.:)
OMG..! I cannot believe that! Link please.. Link? :eek:
wetmanNY
11-28-2002, 8:16 PM
Originally posted by morleyz
Here's an idea...why not just get a rubbermaid container or something similar. That way you know it'll be clean and contaminant free.
...injecting a note of sanity, eh morleyz!
What I want to know is, will a SAE nibble off all the ring round your tub?
If not, then which pleco would?
Anybody?
Anybody?
Luca,
The only thing I'd be afraid of is soap getting into your tank. this won't be too good for the your fish respiration. Other than that I see no problems.
80gJoe,
Take my word for it. You put your tubifex into a container with small holes and dip this container into the flash tank of your toilet. Some people use glass jars closed by a few layers of cheese cloth or very fine mesh. A constant source of cool fresh water is guaranteed. Especially when you have a large family to share a single toilet. :)
Really, bacteria don't need a bathtub to grow. Buy a rubbermaid container, or even better, a $8 glass 10 gallon. Fill it with your bioballs or something with alot of surface area ( lava rocks are good )...... add ammonia, do water changes, give some oxygenation and preferably some heat. Give it 4-6 weeks, and you should have a good amount of ready bacteria. Add the seeded materials ( bioballs, etc ) to the tank, wait for at least a week, then go about your business.....
wetmanNY
11-28-2002, 11:30 PM
Now there's asecond sensible way out of this quandary.
Luca Brazzi
11-29-2002, 6:31 PM
How long should it take for me to start to see some nitrites if this is actually working?
Its been 2 days. If its not going to work then I will just have to start from scratch once I get the tank built (maybe Ill get some Bio-Spira).
See... they way I look at it... this is a true test of Man vs. Nature, if I have some residual soap in the tub... can Nature overcome Johnson and Johnson within 2 weeks?
Also... if there IS some residual stuff in the tub... and Nature DOES overcome it... I will have THE MOST hellacious bacteria on planet Earth... capable of withstanding incredible amounts of waste and filth!
It will be... SUPER BACTERIAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Darn near Andromeda Strain!
Here's the question though... If I dont see any Nitrates after 2 weeks... Then... should I throw out the Bio-Balls and start with new ones because the ones in the tub are contaminated?
Luca Brazzi
11-30-2002, 11:35 PM
Still no Nitrites... How long does it take to show some? Its been 3 days.
quick061
12-01-2002, 12:13 AM
ok this may be a little OT but you guys are freaking hilarious.
man i've never known anyone so obsessed with fishes before.
anyways, getting back on track, Luca i think the biggest problem with this idea is the lack of bathing really. i mean, who wants to be around someone who hasn't taken a shower in 2-3 weeks. i think you'd do better just getting a large container/small tank like Zeb said and working in that.
It all depends. The bacteria that are going to reproduce and break down ammonia need ammonia to feed on...without it, no cycling occurs. So you need a source of ammonia.....some type of fish or living thing that excretes waste OR my personal fav., pure ammonia. You can buy it at Walmart, grocery store, etc....costs 99 cents for a 3 lifetime supply. ( pure ammonia does NOT fizz or bubble, and will say it is pure...it's also 99% of the time the generic cleaner kind. )
Anyways, you add the ammonia in a small amount until you see 5 ppm of ammonia. Then you let it go.....check your levels everyday if you want, or every three days. Whatever works for you.... you'll notice your ammonia dropping, then you'll get nitrItes.... when ammonia gets low, go ahead and boost it a LITTLE. Not back to 5 ppm, but like 1/2 of what you used before. Anyways, give it time....I did this from scratch once and it only took 4 or 5 weeks.
If you want to speed it up, add heat and oxygenation.... let the water splash on the surface from the filter, and raise the heat to around 85. If you can find a healthy, cycled aquarium: borrow some gravel and put it in a sock or nylons. Or get the filter pad....these should have a pretty good bacteria colony on them to boost yours.
about the soap - the bacteria can probably handle that....your fish may not. Nature can overcome some baby shampoo, I'm sure of that. The problem with the bathtub idea is that
a) soap may be a problem.
b) your body odor may be a problem :)
c) it's a hassle and innefective
Like I said before, it's all about surface area and heat/oxygenation..... a smaller container will in fact be better in all aspects.
Luca is using ammonia. See his first post. :)
Satchmo
12-01-2002, 12:36 PM
This is too funny. Luca, you're out of your mind. You obviously don't live with a female, as filling your bathtub with bio balls would be grounds for lynching. Love your screenname though. Good luck in your upcoming bout with body odor. And may your first child be a masculine child.
oh..sorry, I forgot the situation at hand.
While we're on that subject, you ARE at least washing your hands, right? :D
Luca Brazzi
12-01-2002, 10:57 PM
To all concerned...
I am still bathing. Well... once a week like I normally do :) I have 4 bathrooms in the house (3 showers)
The reason I am using the tub is because of its volume. Maybe Im mistaken but I believe I was told (by a moderator on this board) that if I use a small volume of water, it will take less ammonia to reach 5ppm amd therefore my bacteria colony will be smaller. As I understand it, the more ammonia used to get to 5ppm the greater the simulated bio-load is and therefore more bacteria will colonize.
Is this wrong? Is 5 ppm, 5 ppm no matter what the water volume the same amount of bacteria will grow?
Actually the tub is only temporary anyway... untill I can build the acrylic bio tower and sump... then everything can go there.
Luca Brazzi
12-09-2002, 10:46 PM
I think Im seeing Nitrites... I think
I tested the water in my tub for nitrites as usual today... Its so hard to colormatch on those cards though...
Anyway, what I decided to do was to do a test on clean water from the faucet, and the water in the tub and see if there is a difference. What do you know... there is!!! It's slight, but there.
Can something else besides bacteria growth cause this?
Luca Brazzi
12-11-2002, 5:29 PM
Well... SOMETHING is happening... the water seems to have somewhat of a greenish tint to it. :D :confused: :mad: :eek:
NJ Devils Fan
12-11-2002, 10:07 PM
What exactly are bio balls?
Originally posted by NJ Devils Fan
What exactly are bio balls?
Bio balls are a form of bio media that provide lots of surface area for bacteria:
http://www.bigalsonline.com/product_images/ASWO8396a.gif
They're about 1.5" in diameter.
re: Maybe Im mistaken but I believe I was told (by a moderator on this board) that if I use a small volume of water, it will take less ammonia to reach 5ppm amd therefore my bacteria colony will be smaller. As I understand it, the more ammonia used to get to 5ppm the greater the simulated bio-load is and therefore more bacteria will colonize.
Well, it's really simple. As long as you maintain ammonia concentration above zero, the colonies will keep growing to catch up with the available food (that is if the space permits, of course).
So it doesn't matter if you use a bath tub or a glass to cycle your filter.
It would be a different story if you add ammonia once and just wait till it's consumed.
To illustrate the point, imagine youself reading books. You can read them in a public library or in your bathroom. As long as somebody continues supplying you with new books, you'll become smarter and smarter. However, if you bought only enough books to fit into those reading areas, naturally, you have a better chance to become smarter in the library. :)
Luca Brazzi
12-13-2002, 8:32 PM
Well... SOMETHING is growing in the tub. Today I took a good look in there and it seems that there is some kind of brown stuff growing in there so I drained the water out and put fresh water/dechlorinator/ammonia in there.
Sumpin'fishy
12-13-2002, 9:42 PM
If you are only feeding ammonia once per day, then yes, your bacterial colonies can grow larger (potentially) eating that large amount of ammonia vs the amount in a smaller container. It may be confusing, but let me try to explain:
If you need x amount of ammonia to get 5ppm in a 20 gal tank, then when you use 10x (10 times the amount of ammonia) to get 5ppm in your bathtub you will have 10 times the amount of food to eat (daily). Now I understand you will have to build up to adding this amount daily, but bear with me. With this 10x ammonia being eaten each day (and it WILL eventually be used up each day), you will have 10 times the amount of bacteria needed to eat that amount each day!
Now if you want to feed that same 20 gal tank x amount 10 different times per day, then you will STILL get 10 times the amount of bacteria (same amount as bathtub in example). Most of us have time to only add once or twice daily, I would assume.
I hope I didn't lose you guys. I dunno......makes sense to me :)
Look at this from a different perspective. If ammonia is detectable, it means that it wasn't consumed entirely by bacteria and is still available for them. So, if you MAINTAIN presence of ammonia in ANY volume, your colony will continue growing. Makes sense? :)
Sumpin'fishy
12-14-2002, 12:21 AM
Good point......that's definately a good way of growing bacteria. NOw I just hope you can afford to test for ammonia 50 times a day!
Luca Brazzi
12-14-2002, 12:25 AM
Its been 2 weeks since I started this, and I think Ive made a mistake. When I drained and refilled the tub, I reloaded with ammonia/dechorinator. I added what I thought was too much ammonia, however, after testing, I realized that The amount I added this time, was the appropriate amount to get 5ppm. So that means that for 2 weeks Ive been at less than 5ppm ammonia.
Darn card based color charts!
Does anyone think that since my tub is obviously supporting SOME kind of life (the brown stuff), that I should be able to get bacteria growth?
Sumpin'fishy,
How about if the total amount of ammonia in a cycling container is sufficient to feed the given colonies till the next day...or next 48 hours...? Then you don't need to check it 50 times a day, correct?
We both know that your "if you feed it once a day..." or "if you can afford to check it 50 times a day..." are just extreme examples of an imaginable situation. You could've say, "if you feed it only once a week" or "...every hour", and it would be equally suitable for other setups.
In a real life, when you cycle your filter in a fish tank those 3-7 ppms will last for more than a day, and only by the very end of the cycling (when the colonies are huge) the ammonia consumption rate may become high enough to consume all of it in a day or so. We're talking about regular real life filters and tanks of the size roughly matching the filter.
A balance/common sense is the answer, I guess. :)
Luca,
Again, if your ammonia was more than zero, the colonies continued growing. The rate of growing may somewhat depend on the concentration, but it's neither obvious nor simple. Higher concentration don't always mean higher growth rate (and, in fact, may mean completely opposite). So don't worry.
Luca Brazzi
12-15-2002, 1:29 PM
Well I finished building my Sump (see Building a Sump Thread in Freshwater DIY). So once the acrylic dries I should be able to move the completed biotower from the tub and into the sump, then fill the sump with water/decholrinator/ammonia, and continue cycling the media there. I am definitely seeing some nitrites though. I did another nitrate test and although I cant seem to match it up with anything on the color card, there is a definite difference in color between a sample from the tub and a sample from the faucet. I know it hasnt spiked yet because I still read 5ppm ammonia, but they must be growing. I have at least another week or 2 before I can build my main 75 gallon tank (havent gotten those darn bulkhead fittings yet) so by the time I get it built the bacteria should be established.
I do have one thought about all this though...
The bacteria colony I will end up with through fishless cycling will more than likely be ableto support a load much greater than my initial fish load, unless I go out and by a BUNCH of fish. This means that the ammonia produced by the fish I do put in will not be enough to fully support the entire bacteria colony, so some bacteria will die off until an equilibrium is established. Now... once this bacteria equilibrium is reached... adding new fish will require a reestablishment of the equilibrium just as would happen with a fishy cycle (adding a few fish at a time).
So my question is this...
If a person is not planning to fully stock a tank after cycling the media... Why do a fishless (as stated above if you dont fully stock, the bacteria will die off anyway)? Just for the sake of not putting the cycling fish used in a fishy cycle through the stress? It makes sense for me to do a fishless because I don't have a tank yet, but for most NORMAL folks who get a tank and filter upfront...
And one question...
Is there anyway to continue to support my larger than needed bateria colony? Maybe add ammonia to the tank even AFTER I put some fish in there?
No!!! You cannot add ammonia when you have fish in. You'd just poison your fish.
If you don't add a full complement of fish after the cycling is finished, you will need to allow some time for the biofilter to catch up after each additions thereafter. Exactly like it happens in any ESTABLISHED tank.
However, unless the initial load is ridiculously low (as in the beginning of regular ("fishful") cyclings), such mini-cyclings are short and not prominent. Think of it this way: if bacteria doubles in 24 hours, and you have a million of them, you'll may get two million tomorrow. However, if you start with 10 bacteria, you may only have 20 a day after. An initial capital so to speak. So, if you start with 30 fish, you may add 3-5 of new ones every week of so thereafter. If you start with two fish and allow the major part of the filter to die off (which doesn't happen overnight, by the way), don't expect to double their number weekly without seeing noticable picks of the wastes.
Luca Brazzi
12-17-2002, 10:24 PM
Ok...
Now I have my completed sump ~20 gallons, and biotower (holds the bioballs) in the tub (See my Building a Sump post in Freshwater DIY). I did this because I recently built this sump out of acrylic and if it leaks it will leak into the tub.
Anyway, I still have a similar setup without the showerhead. The Mag Drive 500 is in the sump, and is pumping water directly into the biotower. The sump is about half full, and the bioballs are not submerged.
My question is... does anyone think that the plumbers putty I used to keep the tub drain from leaking water, or anything else that was in the tub, will keep bacteria from growing now that everything is completely isolated in the sump?
Its been over 2 weeks and still no nirtrite spike, although I can definitely see a difference when I do a nitrite test on the water from the tub, and the water from a faucet so SOMETHING is happening.
Could my bioballs be contaminated? Should I dump them and get new ones?
So you want to re-start the thread all over again? ;)
beviking
12-18-2002, 1:52 PM
Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
Well... SOMETHING is growing in the tub. Today I took a good look in there and it seems that there is some kind of brown stuff growing in there so...
All this time and you could've just looked in your toilet for the same stuff!!!!!!!:rolleyes:
Luca Brazzi
01-16-2003, 10:55 PM
To sum this thread up... The bathtub Idea was working... I had gotten to about .1ppm Nitrites in the tub. However, I wouldnt recommend this unless A) You have more than one place to bathe. B) You thoroughly rinse out your tub so there is no soap residue, and C) You find a really good way to stop up the tub so that there are no leaks. I used the plumbers putty to get a pretty good seal, but I still had a very slow leak so Id have to top off the water daily, and add more ammonia/dechlorinator to keep the level up. Unfortunately I didnt continue cycling my media when I moved it to the sump so I ended up starting from square one (the bacteria I grew in the tub died when the media dried out) once I got my tank built....
But then... most people get a filter and a tank at the same time.