Sudden Nitrite spike

[Gealcath]

Currently in my 15 Gallon Aquarium i only have a chocolate chip starfish in it, with 2in of crushed coral with 1in of live sand on top of it. The filter is a penguin 190 biowheel. The PH was kinda low at around 7.8 and the nitrites where 0 and the nitrates ranging from 40-80. Then after i raised the PH to 8.3 there was a sudden nitrite spike, and its almost up to 30, i been doing water changes and it lowers it slightly, but i dont know what would cause such a dramatic increase in nitrites. The aquarium has been running for a little over 2 months.

[MonoSebaelover]

Welcome to Aquaria Central! The thing that seems kinda strange is at 30ppm of Nitrite the Starfish would be dead. They can't handle ammonia and Nitrite. Are you sure the star is still alive? And are you sure your test kit is not out of date and that it is accurate? Also what product did you use to buffer the pH? If you raised the pH too quickly then that could have easily killed the star if he is dead. If not then I don't have a clue with the given info as to why it happened. Anyway, if you can give us some more info we can help you a little bit better. Hope this helps.

[Gealcath]

The starfish is still alive and still eating, i used the mardel 5 in 1 test strips and the nitrite was colorless before i added the ph increase, which was Kent Marine PH Buffer powder. 1 day after i tested the water again and the nitrite started to turn pink, but the Chocolate Chip starfish is still alive. Also small animals started to appear on the glass, thier around no more then 2mm or so, and thier concentrated in the areas with algae.

[frazin78]

I might be off a little but I was under the impression that certain chemicals such as a PH buffer could affect certain tests such as Nitrites. I would check the PH buffer as well as the test strips instruction to see if they can possibly affecting the reading.

Jc

[Gealcath]

The starfish has been in the aquarium for 5 days and its still alive, yet the nitrites still read as high, its real odd.

[Corax]

Odd indeed.. Are you sure you aren't testing for nitrAte instead? I had a test kit once that was a combo nitrIte and nitrAte , the only difference was developing time. Just covering everything cuz this is a very odd situation.

[Gealcath]

Its testing the correct one, and now those little bugs are begining to be a plague, and are starting to crawl on on the starfish, mostly from the mucus type stuff thats hanging from it after it eats. The tiny bug like things started to appear after the ph buffering as well, they look like transparent slug like things about 2mm or so long, and what looks like 3 antena in front. Also the star fish is starting to have some of its tentacles curled all the way up, which isnt a good sign i dont think.

[OrionGirl]

The 'bugs' are copopods and amphipods, most likely, and they are not a bad sign. Healthy tanks have them in droves.

Curling legs is not healthy, and may indicate that internal lines have broken--how was the starfish acclimated to your tank?

Nitrites of 30 ppm is lethal--anything above 1 ppm can be deadly. The starfish and the pods would all be dead if that was accurate. Take your water and have it tested at your LFS. How did you raise the pH?

[Sregnar35]

Here is a picture of a marine copepod, they are the most common marine phytoplankton, and will come as hitchhikers if you have live rock. I'm not sure if they will harm your starfish though?

[OrionGirl]

Pods are generally harmless. There are parasitic isopods, which look like a flattened roly-poly, much smaller, and are seldom seen away from a fish or coral. Like most parasites, they are host specific and can not survive for long without a host.

[reefpicker]

Hi

" nitrates ranging from 40-80."

Even if the nitrites are 0, your nitrates are too high for a tank with only a starfish. You are probably overfeeding.

How often and what are you feeding?

Also, I agree that if the nitrites where that high, everything in the tank would be dead.

Lastly, next time you read your ph and is that low... do a water change... your tank is 15g... a water change of 5 gallons would probably do a lot more for the ph and will be less impacting to the animals than using a commercial ph up...

I bet that your readings are normal and that something affected your strips... perhaps the ph up solution...

Try taking the water to the LFS as was suggested here.... Maybe another test kit will show a different thing...

Also do a small water change... It will not hurt anything and should not be much of a hassle in such a small tank...

BTW If your ph is not exactly the same (+/- .2 units) as freshly prepared SW, then something is wrong with the tank... It should not go down in a tank like that... just my 2c


I hope everything turns out OK... So that you can add more things to your tank and continue learning... This is a wonderful hobby...!

[Gealcath]

Well the Nirtrites are almost at 0 now with the amonia barely noticable, but the Nitrates are around 80-120ppm (if there was any nitrites it would explain the high nitrates) , and the starfish is back to its normal appearance, meaning no curled tentacles and its still eating (i hand feeding it tubifex worm cubes about twice a week). If something was damaged then it looks like it regenerated the damage. Also those small marine organisms seem to be feeding off the mucus the starfish leaves after it eats something. I have had it for about 2 weeks now.

[Corax]

Ok, let's rewind here... Start from the beginning. Tell us from day 1 how your tank came about... Start with "I bought a tank, filled it with water, then........." Something is wrong way back, otherwise, this is the most bizarre tank in history. 120ppm of nitrates doesn't happen in 2 weeks from a single star fish. How did you cycle the tank? How much liverock? How much livesand? Did it have other critters that have died and not been removed? Details, we need details.

[reefpicker]

Unless all your test kits are no good...


Twice a week feeding sounds OK, but it should not have raised the nitrates that high... Unless they where high to start with...

Or again, you may have probelms with your test kits.

I am baffled... :confused:

[Gealcath]

Well from the start i am using the old aqurium gravel and rocks/decorations from my old SW aquarium. We moved so i had to set it up again, non of the decorations or the biowheel filter wher ekept wet, so it dried out. After 3 weeks it was set up i put a lion fish in it, but the amonia was too high (tested it after it died, then again the LFS had just opened and thier SW tanks wernt cycled yet).

Currently The only thing that can be considerd live rock is the dead coral pieces, which equals to around 3 or 4 lbs. The bottom consists of 3" crushed coral (from the old setup) with 1" of live sand on top of it. The only filtration is a penguin 170 biowheel, and there is no protein skimmer (thier too big for a aquarium my size).

The tank has been running for almost 2 months, and the nitrates have stayed at 40-80 pretty much the whole time, ammonia around .05ppm. Recently i added a PH buffer powder, which might have produced a false reading on the test strips, as the LFS tested it and it had hardly any ammonia and nitrite where in it. The first thing in the aquarium was a lion fish, but the ammonia killed it. Then i put some Damsel fishes into it, they lasted around 4 days then got stressed out and died. Then 3 weeks later another Damsel fish was added and it died in 2 weeks. Then i put a Turbo Snail into it and it was in the aquarium for 2 weeks without showing any signs of bad health, its currently in my moms 29 gallon aquarium, and is doing fine. The starfish was added at the same time the snail was in there, but i moved it to the 29 gallon as the starfish kept on trying to eat the snail.

[OrionGirl]

So you have gravel from an old tank that dried out--was it cleaned before you started this tank up? If not, most likely bet would be there's a ton of organic 'stuff' in the substrate from it's previous setup, and that stuff is now decomposing. This means high ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, as this stuff breaks down much faster than the bacteria can process it. The additional deaths on the live rock from the toxic levels is contributing to the problem.

Re-using substrate that's dried out requires complete cleaning. Ditto for any filter media that's dried out, or sat for too long without a stable food source. I would pull out all of the gravel and replace it with a deep layer of sand. Recycle the tank, using an old cocktail shrimp (return the star or find it a new home), and don't add anything until you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and have done a water change to reduce nitrates to less than 20 ppm.

[Corax]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Some of this might sound harsh, but you'll thank me later... On with the beating =)

1.) Your ammonia spike probabaly came from the rotting gunk in that gravel. Doesn't matter if it was dry or not, it was still there.

2.) The lion didn't help matters as they poop their own weight daily, or so it seems.

3.) A 2 week old tank is HARDLY capable of supporting a few damsels to cycle with, much less a lion fish. Your LFS should be ashamed for selling you that fish. I'm going to assume you set the tank up and THEN learned what cycling is all about, right? You did learn what cycling is about, right? See below ;)

4.) The ammonia spike you had resulted in that nitrite and now the nitrate. The fact that your tank processed all that nitrite so quickly tells me that the substrate didn't completey go south on ya. It is processing the pollution as best it can right now. You need to help it out with lots of water changes.

5.) Throw that buffer powder as far as you can. Worthless. Your salt mix and water changes will maintain your pH for you.

6.) So you know, ANY ammonia is too much ammonia. The presence of ammonia indicates your tank is out of balance. More waste is being produced than your biological filter can handle. This is known as "bio-capacity" and you are beyond yours right now. This is a residual effect of the decaying junk in your tank, and it will fade away slowly, but it will accumlate as nitrate. This is where the water changes come in. Nitrate can go away in one of 3 ways... Water changes, nutrient exportation via macro algae or a thriving deep sand Bed (DSB).

Since you have no live rock, I have to assume you are doing this on a budget. That's ok, we all started somewhere and yer far from doomed. Here is what you need to do.

1.) Find a home for that star fish. Either permanent or temporary if ya want him back.

2.) Tear down that tank, give it a good scrub.

3.) Throw that old gravel away, as we don't do gravel anymore.

4.) Head to Home Depot and buy enough Play Sand to make a 4" thick layer. This stuff is cheap, like $4 for 50lbs.

5.) Buy some dry base rock either at a local nursery or from the web. You can get it for about $1/lb and you need about 1ln/gallon. ONLY get Lace, Tufa or an aragonite based rock like the kind found here (http://www.hirocks.com)

6.) Fill the tank up, mix the salt and get your parameters perfect. Specific gravity should be 1.022 - 1.023, temperature should be ~78

7.) Once it is stable, head to Kroger and get some cocktail shrimp. I use 2 for a 55, so scale accordingly. Get fresh if you can, but frozen works too.

8.) Throw those bad boys in there and hunt a nose clip, cuz it's gonna stink for a couple days. As you do this, get a nylon bag (the toe of a nylon panty hose works great) and put some of your old gravel in there. It has good bacteria you need and it will help kickstart your cycling. This is the same concept as those bottled products, only this actually works.

9.) Wait till your ammonia reads zero, your nitrite reads zero and your nitrate starts to go up. Once established, that DSB will take care of the nitrate for you. Remove the nylon bag full of gravel and discard.

10.) You notice I didn't mention hardware? That's cuz you need very little hardware. You need enough circulation to turn the water volume over 5-10 times per hour. Powerheads are the key here. Put one on each end of the tank, aimed towards the front center and you'll be good to go. If you must use a power filter, remove the media from it and just use it as a glorified power head.

That's pretty much how to fishlessly cycle a new tank on a budget. If you can add some liverock after the cycle, you'll greatly enhance you tanks bio-diversity. Doesn't take much, one or 2 little chunks. Adding a lb or 2 of live sand will be a good thing too.

We all make mistakes. The trick is to learn from em. I guess it wasn't that harsh after all =)

[Corax]

Onion, sometimes you scare me =) GMTA darlin ;)

[OrionGirl]

Booo!

:D

[Gealcath]

Everything was washed off before it got put into the aquarium, as well as scrubbing down everything well, i threw the coral gravel into a strainer and sprayed it with a hose for a good 30 minutes while mixing it up, nothing was left on it. As for the starfish the LFS wont take anything back once thier baught unless its donated, which would put me out $8, and theres no one around who has a SW aquarium (in fact they seem to be having alot of fish dieing as well) so i'll probably keep onto the starfish for now, and if it dies then i plan on putting in just sand and a undergravel filter as well,or if it still lives to slowly convert the tank to an all sand bed (already has around 3lbs. of live sand in it)

[Corax]

$8 vs restarting the tank properly instead of continuing to do it the wrong way... Hmm.. I think I'd eat the 8 bucks and just do it right. The reason your friends are losing fish as well is cuz that LFS isn't educating you people properly. The advice has been given, by 2 people. Now it's up to you to follow it or keep wondering "why?" when something goes wrong in your tank.

Good luck.

Oh and sand doesn't work with an undergravel filter. Undergravel filters are considered by most, myself included, to be the absolute worst form of filtration for a saltwater tank. Learn how to let the tank take care of itself, then yer making progress. =)

[reefpicker]

I agree with everything said... The only thing I wanted to add is... If you buy a fish and it dies within a few weeks, it could be an accidental death, a sick fish, etc. But if you have that many fish die in a tank within weeks, hey, something most be really really wrong!

Also, keep in mind that your tank is really small. You should keep easy going and good-manered fish... For a 15g tank like yours, I would keep a pair of tank-raised clowns... after you learn more, maybe in a few months, you can add one or two more fish...


BTW Switch LFS.

Bottom line: re-build your tank, use sand (there are real, fact-based, reasons why you do not want gravel, I can tell you in another post), throw the ph buffer to the trash can (so you are not tempted to use it again)...

Normally, I would have told you to keep the starfish, but just this time I would go with the fish-less cycling thing. The starfish has to go. Starfish are usually very sensitive to nitrites and ammonia... I am pretty sure they will not survive a cycle...

[Corax]

Think of a fishless cycle as ummmmm, basically, hell on Earth =) The ammonia levels will get so high, any living creature not designed to consume the ammonia will be eradicated. Then, once it is over, those that WERE designed to consume it will have reproduced in great numbers and can support the relatively piddly amounts of ammonia your fish can produce.

I think somewhere along the path of this thread, I missed the fact that we are talking about a 15g tank. NO lionfish, be that a dwarf or a full size is suitable for a 15g tank at any stage of its life. The only fish that are suitable for a 15g are smaller clowns such as Perculas or Skunks and some damsels. Lions are high level predators and they need space. Also, and I really doubt you'd ever see this in a tank, but choco star can get 15" across =) Again, I doubt you'd ever see that away from the ocean, but it could happen.

Ok, I went back and re-read your original post. You didn't mention the 15g part =P The animals you mention are called copepods and they congregate where plants are growing. Safe and a welcome addition to you tank. Sadly, they won't survive the ammonia very well.

[Gealcath]

Actually its not my friends that are loosing the fish, its the LFS that keeps loosing fish, so theres no real place take the starfish too. I might just keep everything in there including the water and just change the gravel over to sand (i already have live sand in there, in fact 1" of live sand ontop), and do frequent water changes until the nitrates drop. This would basically be the same thing as cycling, except it wouldnt involve taking out all the water and putting new water in, which would be all that would be involved in a cycle. Currently theres 0 Nirites and 0 Ammonia, with high nitrates, which from what i have been seeing will happen in a new cycle anyway, by changing the gravel over to 100% sand it would be already at the nitrate phase.


Also the LFS here is the only one that sells SW fish.

[Corax]

The thing you are missing is that your gravel is covered in the bacteria that is consuming the ammonia in your tank. There is an article on the web about how to convert over properly, but I don't know the url. I believe it is on Fish Whisperer's site. Anyone got a link for him?

[tricksterpup]

http://www.fishwhisperer.homestead.com/fish.html


jim

[Corax]

There ya go! Thats the place, and here is the link directly to the articles. He covers cycling and swapping that gravel out.

http://www.fishwhisperer.homestead.com/articles.html

Monty is a giant in our hobby and he has helped MANY of us get past the stage you are at right now. Listen to him. I consider him EASILY on par with a Dr. Ron or a Robert Fenner. I'm sure both of them would agree with me there.. Well, probably not Dr. Ron, he's an arrogant old bottle tipper! Anyway, Monty rocks, you'd do well to follow his advice.

[Gealcath]

What types of places carry Aragonite play sand at this time of year? I know in most stores play sand is seasonal.

[reefpicker]

Hi,


Dr. Ron, he's an arrogant old bottle tipper


:) At least I am not the only to get that impression from him...


But I would not put FW up with the giants of our hobby...

I have to say that with very few exception almost all the "giants" or VIP in our hobby are either arrogant or only interested in making money. Except Tom Frakes, Martin Moe, and Bill Adison... At least from the ones I have met...

Martin Moe is just a very very pleasant and nice person... I love his books. He is very talented...

BTW What happened to Julian Sprung columns in FAMA? I have not seen anything from him in the past few months...

He is a really cool guy but extremely intere$ted ! :)

Actually after I went to MACNA I was a little depressed, especially after the second one, because I realized that this hobby is really about money... and most of my "idols" are buisnessmans... Well, again, with the one exception of Martin Moe, who signed my book :cool: and chatted with me for a little while...

What ever happened to FW anyway? Havent seen his post in quite a while...