ABS\PVC Question

[online2]

When putting new ABS\PVC in the tank as caves, is just washing with water & brush only that needs to be done? And yes I have read all the debate about putting ABS in fish tank being safe or not.:)

Thanks
Online

[Jeremy S]

All you need to do is rinse it so the dust comes off.

[ewok]

clean off the fuzzies on the cut ends somehow, and rinse well.......

all done. :D

[JamisonBWolsh]

Actually, for added safety, you should BLEACH the pipe before you put it in the tank. Remember, some places store the pipes outside.,...

[JamisonBWolsh]

for added safety to kill anything that is still on it.... PLUS..they dont bleach them because they use ABS for SEWEGE in the house...

[JamisonBWolsh]

If he were to buy ABS, he should make sure its not coated and he should Bleach it. PVC is naturally safe... (still have to bleach it though)

[TnCgal]

Bartender, hit me again ! :D

[JamisonBWolsh]

Listen online: you can wash it, then add it to your tank. But keep in mind that you have NO IDEA where that pipe was before or what was "spilled" on to, or in it. Bleaching it will kill all those "hitchhikers"

[jiggerpolebill]

PVC is naturally safe? must be from all the precautions they use when theyre mining it. you know? from those big PVC mines? theyre in Virginia arent they? where all those workers were trapped. mining a big vein of PVC.

or do they farm PVC in Nebraska? i never can remember....

i never bleach anything in my aquarium. im too paranoid that i wont get it all rinsed off.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Im talking about PVC Pipes.... BLEACHING is known to kill most anything that is living on it...It will make the pipe 100 percent safe for the tank.

[jiggerpolebill]

ive been collecting alot of rocks lately. right behind my house in a new subdivision thats being built up with fill dirt. i scrub them clean with a brush, boil them for a few hours, give them the ole vinegar test and if they pass, its on to the tank. then monitor the water parameters for changes.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Yes.. Boiling will do the trick. But you cant boil ABS or PVC pipe. What type of rocks? I had to pay for mine...

[JamisonBWolsh]

Cant Boil ABS...in the discussion previously, at a certain temp, the ABS pipe will leach toxins..

[JamisonBWolsh]

I dont know and I dont care. Try it if you want.
1.) wash it- you should be fine.
2.) Bleach it- You will be 100 percent sure of no "hitchhikers" that cant be removed with a water washing....

[jiggerpolebill]

all kinds of rocks. all different shapes and sizes. white ones. pink ones. green ones. black ones. mostly sedimentary. some igneous. and, yes, maybe even a metamorphic or two! they look awesome.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by jiggerpolebill
all kinds of rocks. all different shapes and sizes. white ones. pink ones. green ones. black ones. mostly sedimentary. some igneous. and, yes, maybe even a metamorphic or two! they look awesome.

Sounds like a GREAT assortment!!! lucky you..what part of the country are you in... and its all FREE!!! and you can pick and choose... :)

[jiggerpolebill]

im in Indiana. i suppose at one time or another the entire midwest was in some kind of flood plain. everything washes down stream.

[TnCgal]

For the record, I'd like to interject here. There are a couple of different ways to sanitize rocks and other objects to make them suitable for your fishes' environment. One is that you can bleach them - as long as you rinse well. However, no soap or other cleansers ! These leave toxic residue ! :)

As a side note, it is perfectly safe to bleach rocks when cleaning them... just soak them in dechlorinated water for a night or two to remove the chlorine residue before you put them in your tank.

The other method is boiling, which is perfectly OK for things like rock or driftwood, but not recommended for plastic products because of leeching of dangerous chemicals that could inadvertantly end up in your tank.

While we are on the subject, this is also why fish experts advise against putting anything into your tank as a decoration that is not "approved for aquarium use", because of the leeching possibility. I personally talked to some one on a different forum recently that put brand new plastic reptile tunnels in her tank as caves for hiding places, and they looked nice, but after a few months the coating started to chip off from being in the water so long.

The rule of thumb is to remember that your fishes' healthy environment depends on you to be mindful of what you are using in their world and the bottom line should be that if you are unsure of it, then don't use it.

[JamisonBWolsh]

I never said heaters or filters...just stuff that you dont know where it came from...like the abs pipes and the rocks...who knows their history....I DOUBT that a heater was left outside without a box...



the Magick site listed the info at the top of the page...easier to read...the scientific paper you had to search the page (long) for it.. so I chose that website as it was easier to read..

[jiggerpolebill]

yes, it was long, but it still wasnt scientific. it was religion based.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Jigger... did you try that Google toolbar download? It does make life easier with the highlighting and translating to english features..

[jiggerpolebill]

no. i told you i can only use "back" and "refresh". and "favorites". i use that one too. i dont like downloading too much onto the ole computer. plus, id have to learn how to use it, and that could take years.

[TnCgal]

Bartender ?

ANOTHER ! NOOOOWW !!! And this time make it a double ?


OK. I want everyone to freeze.

I am going to lock this thread while I do some serious edit/delete work on it. I want everyone involved to take take five. When I get back I want to see some serious kissing and making up... er, at least a hearty handshake.

See you in a minute.

[TnCgal]

Ok, this thread is all clean now.

For the record, I wanted to address something that was brought up earlier about Wetman's and my differing opinions as far as using bleach on rocks.

Yes, we DO disagree. In none of my research have I ever found anything that concretely says that bleach should never be used on rock, and IMO it is perfectly safe... as long as it is rinsed thoroughly, dechlorinated and perhaps even left out to dry in the sun.

I have done this many times over with large river rock, and have never had any repercussions from doing so.

This is not to make Wetman's information wrong, we just have different experiences ! :)

[ewok]

Originally posted by slipknottin
I think bleach is harder on plastic products than boiling is. PVC pipe is made to take high heat and high pressure, but arent suited for tough abrasives. ABS fairs better in this respect.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/rocks.html#aquasafe

just for the record, and NOT to restart this arguement.......

that's wrong slip, almost entirely reversed........ plastics are made for chemical and corosion resistance, NOT heat OR high pressure. this is from experience working at an incinerator...... it's 730 in the morning after a long night out and i am not digging out msds sheets for this but if you would care to call either new britain plumbing in nb or bender plumbing in new haven i am sure they will send you whatever you want.

the reason you wouldn't want to boil them as far as i know would be deformities. pvc is a plastic and as such will melt, deform and actually in the instance i am thinking of, shrink. i had to dig out a pipe we were using to transfer hot acidic water and the darn thing actually shrank and deformed, even 4ft down. one of the seams let go when the pipe contracted and a rock dropped into the gap left behind, plugging the drain basically. ***note*** this *was* an extreme case, it was superheated "quench" water used to cool the secondary chamber, and it took 3 or 4 years worth of exposure before we noticed the problem.

boiling it for a fishtank probably wouldn't matter though as tolerances aren't as critical and leakage isn't an issue. whatever deformities happen probably wouldn't matter.

tnc, i would be slightly iffy about bleaching stuff like my lace rock, it seems to be pretty porous...............

do NOT use this to restart the arguement...... if you would like references i will dig them up..... email me or something.......

[morleyz]

Holy cripes...I missed the fun. Late or not, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. All of the rock I recently used in decorating my 150 was thoroughly scrubbed in water, rinsed well...and is now a wonderful home for all my fish. There's no way in heck I'm going to boil 200lbs of rock. I can't see any real point to bleaching either. Can anyone tell me exactly what it is we're trying to kill? If you have a rock from a river, odds are just letting it dry will kill off just about everything you'd care about.

As far as plastics go. You can bleach them if you'd like. I'd be careful about boiling them though...

http://www.plasticsgroup.com/professor_polymer/msds_sheets/polifil_rp_abs/

Note the melting point of ABS is about 230F which really isn't much warmer than boiling.

I'm in the camp of:
1. If you'd adding something to your tank and you don't know enough about it to know whether or not it will leech anything into your tank, or dissolve, etc. Don't add it.
2. Anything you add to your tank should be throughly cleaned of debris and rinse well. Never use soap. I personally whould never use bleach either.
3. There is no right/wrong answer. Learn as much as you can about what you're adding and what possible contaminants it would be likely to carry and treat it appropriately.

[TnCgal]

Nonono... you don't "need" to bleach the pipes. It's an added precaution to disinfect them from any harmful substances that may have settled on them, just as if you were to bleach the inside of an old tank before you used it.... some people do, some people don't, just different ways to skin a cat.

Please note also that I said that bleaching rock is safe as long as you rinse it, dechlorinate it, and let it dry. Let's think about the big picture here. If you have a rock that is porous enough to allow Chlorine bleach to penetrate it, wouldn't it make sense that the same rock will allow dechlorinator to eliminate the residual Chlorine ?

There is one other point here that I wanted to make, and please note this concept is one for the experienced ***********s to explore .... not beginners - so newbies, plug your ears so you don't hear this :

There are many old-timers right here on this very board and others that don't dechlorinate their water before they use it. Now it's important to know that ***********s that go this route are perfectly in tune with what additives and chemical treatments their water supply is currently undergoing so that they can make allowances for that. I myself never dechlorinate my pond water and have never had a fish death as a result. My point to this is that Chlorine in essence is not as deadly as initially thought. In large enough volumes, yes, of course.

A rock that has been bleached to eliminate deadly riverbed bacteria or parasites, then rinsed, dechlorinated and dried is perfectly safe.

[Dale W.]

Hey Slip,

Your right that plumbers dont bleach the pipes before installing them. But, if you are on a city water system You are drinking the stuff every day. So in a way, the city is bleaching the pipes for you.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Slip: heres waht you can do (since your so ANTI-bleach)

Take a rock from a pond thats full of viruses, bad bacteria, and general bad water quality. Then we can compare the results:

1.) you take the rock and just rinse it under water, add it to your tank.
2.) I will bleach it, then add it to my tank.

Lets just see what happens to your tank. :rolleyes:

[JamisonBWolsh]

were not talking about saltwater, are we...

[JamisonBWolsh]

Bleaching ensures purity entering your tank. Mearly washing does not kill many bacteria and Virus strains found in nature. Common fact.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Im not going to debate this. Bleaching will ensure safety. Thats it. Nothing to debate. And I think Debating is a drug of choice for you, even if its a debate not needed (as in this case).

[JamisonBWolsh]

I do have first hand experience.. I use bleach on everything that I have doubt before adding it. Its the ONLY safe way.

My articles actually come from valid sources.. yours? This is no debate. TNCGAL gave you the reasons to use it. I, and must other poeple here, respect her opinion over yours.. sorry..

[JamisonBWolsh]

Now thats just sarcasm. It wont kill the fish (or even hurt) if you wash the bleach off before adding. :rolleyes:

[Richer]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh


IN additon, I think most people reading this will take the word of TNCGAL over a 18 year old SLIP.

Whats this about age? Its not how old you are that counts, its the advice you give and the validity of it. If you don't like how young the ppl giving advice are, I'd suggest you leave. Don't go around discriminating ppl because they are young, I take complete offense to that, as I am actually younger than Slip.

-Richer

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by Richer


Whats this about age? Its not how old you are that counts, its the advice you give and the validity of it. If you don't like how young the ppl giving advice are, I'd suggest you leave. Don't go around discriminating ppl because they are young, I take complete offense to that, as I am actually younger than Slip.

-Richer

I did not say anything about age? where did I say that?
I said "will take the word of TNCGAL over a 18 year old SLIP"

I didnt compare age... A 18 year old Slip is much different...

[morleyz]

There's still one thing that I haven't seen a good answer to from the bleachers and boilers. What is is that we're trying to kill here? If I pull a rock out of the pond down the street, what exactly is it that's going to do harm? It just seems like there's this common misperception that the world around us is filled with viruses and bacterias, etc, etc...which is true of coure, but they're present everywhere. Do you really think you're bleaching is going to kill the bacteria? Maybe temporarily, but odds are they'll just get in another way. I guess I don't see any real harm in going that extra mile, but I still can't find a definitive answer from anyone about anything harm that would actually be done. You're probably taking a bigger risk adding a fish from the petstore than a rock from the neighbors pond.

And as far as age goes...I do have to say that I'm a bit older than slip (not quite enough to be his parent, but almost) and I certainly trust and benefit from a lot of his advice as much as the other youngin's and the older folks.

[pinballqueen]

I don't bleach anything that goes into my tank...I have found that scrubbing with a brush under really hot water is easier...it saves a step, since you would have to do that regardless of whether you bleach the item in question or not...

I have taken plants, rocks, even fish out of my local ponds and streams and added them to my tank with no ill-effects. IMO, they are healthier and more natural than the stuff you buy from the lfs anyhow. AND much less likely to have stuff on/in them that will wreak havoc on your tank, such as spray paint (those neat little neon-colored rocks at WM) or snails (in those neat little potted plants)

I think bleach/no bleach is as personal of a choice as filtration type or substrate colors....

[Tom Griffin]

I dont think you have to worry about debating your elder here slip.

to aid in giving validation to his posted date of birth i submit the one I have listed.

I have yet to see one thing posted by your adversary that would indicate that he is actually the age he professes.

on the other hand I have seen much in his posts that indicate much the reverse.

let the kids play big guy. It makes em feel good slip:)

[Stias']

Wow, I cant believe I read this whole thread. Sombody owes me 20 minutes because I want my time back.

Quite a few statements being thrown around in such a way that implies (or states) that there is no other way it can be. That is a very counter productive way of teaching OR learning. Let me address just a few of them below.

JamisonBWolsh said
I dont know and I dont care. Try it if you want.
1.) wash it- you should be fine.
2.) Bleach it- You will be 100 percent sure of no "hitchhikers" that cant be removed with a water washing....

100%, yea right. Ever hear of black mold? Ever try to "bleach it away"? Didnt think so. Why not just say you like to bleach to reduce the chance of unwanted bacteria rather than make a blanket statement?



Reefscape said
Hey Slip,

Your right that plumbers dont bleach the pipes before installing them. But, if you are on a city water system You are drinking the stuff every day. So in a way, the city is bleaching the pipes for you.

When that is said it sounds like the citys are bleaching to clean your things and that running city over things would somewhat clean them due to the bleach (clorine or clorimine) in the water. Nothing could be further from the truth, they are mearly adding chemicals to keep the city water from getting people sick. To add more chemicals than nessary costs money so they only add as much as is needed. Once it leaves the city line and goes through the meter, its yours and they are not trying to clean your pipes, your fixtures, your plates or glasses, or even your mouth (which is very dirty in humans).



slipknottin said
so wouldnt that be the same as running the pipes under tap water?
No, see the above but I really think you didnt mean the above statment.

What do people with well water do? Do they use bleach or other chemicals to prevent bacteria from growing?
No, not that I know of, but I wouldnt doubt if sombody does, its a really big planet. I do know of one guy that bleached his well. I think its illegal but done somewhat commonly and its called shocking a well. Remove the cover to the casing, dump a gallon or two down then run every foccet in the house till you smell bleach, wait a day then run the foccets till you dont smell anything. The person I know did it because he is a single man living in a large house with many bathrooms and the water got kinda stagnet in the unused rooms. It smelled like a sink full of dirty dishes that hasent been washed in many days.



Anyway, now I think I will head to the garage and lighten the kegerator by a few ounces and finish watching the game. I hope nobody takes offence to being quoted, I didnt mean anything personal, just wanted to point out the blanket statements that were incorrect and how they dont help anybody, much less a new fish keeper who might be reading.

Stias'

[pinballqueen]

Stias', I believe that is the most responsible observation on this thread. You're right. It isn't helpful to make broad generalizations, especially if someone has a specific concern. Hopefully, any newbies that are reading this thread are doing it with the understanding that it is more of a debate thread than one for specifics...

[JamisonBWolsh]

Stais: Are you serious?

Are you going to take me saying kills 100 percent of all bacteria literally? Im sure there is bacteria out there that would live from a soaking of bleach.. but what is the chance of that happening? Anyway, my point was that Bleaching an object before it enters a fish environment is ALOT safer then just running water over it, like slip suggests..

[Trainer]

First off, let me state for the record that I am not an expert on the materials in question and I don't really want to immerse myself into the middle of this stuff, but I will offer a bit of info and allow you to choose what you think is the best choice for you. Regarding ABS, I don't have first-hand manufacturing experience with that particular polymer, but for the past 17 years I have made about 370MMlbs annually of related material containing both butadiene and styrene.

I'd personally prefer to boil over bleach in this instance, if concerned about contamination. While ABS will soften at boiling temps (industry calls the temp at which a plastic will deform from heat "vicat" temp), it is not good to mix ABS (most plastics, including PVC, actually) with strong oxidizers (check the MSDS link quoted above - Section 7). Isn't chlorine bleach a strong oxidizer? PVC will generally soften at a considerably lower temp than ABS (about 70C), so boiling would have to be done very carefully.

As per the questions of what will be released if you make the water for the ABS too warm - almost all of it will be the resdiduals of the three basic building blocks of the polymer - Acrylonitrile, Butadiene, or Styrene. We're talking miniscule amounts here, folks, and they're still organic in nature. So if you're concerned, just run activated carbon in the tank for a bit and the nasties will be adsorbed. The link below lists common chemicals that can be adsorbed by activated carbon and assigns a simple rating to the ease of the adsorption process for that particular chemical.

http://www.aq-filtration.com/pdfs/ACTcarb.pdf

online2, when I add new plastic (any of the commonly available types) to my tanks, I just rinse them with hot tap water and put some fresh carbon in the tank. If you choose to boil or add bleach, good for you for taking the steps you feel necessary to protect your aquarium inhabitants.

[TnCgal]

OK .... again I have taken the liberty of editing/deleting parts of this otherwise productive thread. Discussions such as these are important in that they contain many different points of veiw while at the same time teaching new concepts to people that are not quite as experienced in the hobby yet, which is the only reason it has not been locked down yet. I still feel that there are things to be learned in this thread as long as we keep it in a productive realm.

That said and recognized, I owe my friend morleyz an apology. Twice now in this thread he has asked a legitimate question so that he can better understand the discussion, and twice now everyone involved this thread has overlooked his question in lieu of a petty argument ... and for that I am sorry. :(

morleyz let me see if I can better explain it.


Originally posted by morleyz
There's still one thing that I haven't seen a good answer to from the bleachers and boilers. What is is that we're trying to kill here? If I pull a rock out of the pond down the street, what exactly is it that's going to do harm? It just seems like there's this common misperception that the world around us is filled with viruses and bacterias, etc, etc...which is true of coure, but they're present everywhere. Do you really think you're bleaching is going to kill the bacteria? Maybe temporarily, but odds are they'll just get in another way. I guess I don't see any real harm in going that extra mile, but I still can't find a definitive answer from anyone about anything harm that would actually be done. You're probably taking a bigger risk adding a fish from the petstore than a rock from the neighbors pond.

Jeff, the idea and buzzword here is "precaution." We are careful not to say that it is imperative to bleach things as they are being moved from one location to another, but when we are talking about one environment that "can" contain deadly - or at the very least "harmful" - bacteria, it is safe to assume an ounce of precaution is worth a pound of cure. Ponds are really no different than aquariums when it comes to harmful bacteria that can be introduced from one location to the next. My question to you is, would you take something out of your friend's tank and put it in yours without taking precautions first ? Rock from pond to pond, or from riverbed to pond, or from riverbed to aquarium should be no different. There is an enormous amount of cross-contamination that can - and does - occur that can cause bacteria or a parastic infection. You are right in that the risk of this is always present, but the key is to minimize it.

I also want to point out to whomever it was that stated that bleach does not kill 100% of bacteria that from my experience in the medical field, I can tell you that bleach is the "most" fool-proof disinfectant around. It is the most trusted and most effective way to rid things of countless types of bacteria and has been found to be 99.9% effective against keeping harmful bacteria at bay. Yes, boiling will kill bacteria effectively, but there are types of bacteria that will actually reproduce at extremely high temperatures rather than be eliminated, so not even boiling is more effective than bleaching.

In any case morleyz, I hope this more thoroughly answers your questions and if you have any more, feel free to ask. It has been a challenge keeping the bickering to a minimum in this thread but one way or another your questions will be answered, I will make sure of that. Again, I apologize. :)

[online2]

Thanks for everyone who replied, didn't mean for this to turn to big debate . Here what I did for the ABS, fill 5gal bucket with full hot water from the tap, let soak for hour, wipe the inside and outside couple of times and let dry. Added to my tank, but after few minutes I started hearing this clicking sound look over and my fish where holding signs that said "Stop pollution of our water" and "Are you trying to kill us?" Then woke up.:D Sorry had to put some humor in. But I do appreciate everyone opinion.

Love this Forum

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Online2

[kveeti]

Originally posted by TnCgal
Yes, boiling will kill bacteria effectively, but there are types of bacteria that will actually reproduce at extremely high temperatures rather than be eliminated, so not even boiling is more effective than bleaching.

TnCgal, does this apply to steaming, too (I assumed steam was even hotter) ? I have one of those hand held steamer thingys (Eureka hotshot) and I have used it to "sterilize" some equipment. Am I misleading myself?

Thanks.

[morleyz]

kveeti - Steam is hotter than water, however it will also rapidly cool, so I don't know what the exact tolerances of different bacteria are, but I would bet that prolonged boiling would be better than steaming. As far as the reproducing at higher temps, most of those bacteria would not be present on anything you'd be adding to your tank...they tend to be very exotic and live in places like hotsprings. The cool temperatures of your tap water would likely kill them off anyway.

TnC - I guess I've never had any problems that would make me that cautious. I can remember even as a kid adding rocks or other items without giving a second though as to what might be coming with them. I added 200 lbs of rock to my new tank without anymore than a good scrubbing with a wire brush and a thorough drying.

The thought of boiling or bleaching those rocks still makes me ill.

I guess I'd be really curious to know about any bacteria or other organisms that would be likely to survive the drying process (I assume through some spore form or something).

[pinballqueen]

Aren't there a few invertebrate species that need a drought period in order for a new generation to come about? If you didn't get the eggs cleaned off of the rock via either thorough cleaning/boiling/bleaching or some other method, you might run the risk of having hydra or something....(nothing like rabid sea-monkeys to ruin your weekend)...otherwise, I can't think of a whole lot that could survive a very deep cleaning (with or without chemical assistance) coupled with a decent dry-out period of a couple of weeks in the sun...nothing that would do a whole lot of harm to a tank, anyhow. "uglies" like algae or something, maybe, but nothing that will kill your fish.... Nature has a way of purifying things, I believe. Sunlight is the best bleaching agent for organic materials out there, if you're willing to wait long enough for it to work...

[slipknottin]

I believe the fear of adding rocks from a pond or stream is unfounded. If something that awful was living in it, id think you would know it.

marine keepers add rock direct from the ocean constantly, and with very few negative side affects. There are a lot of positives however... this quote about sums it up


trying to have a marine tank without adding live rock (rock from the ocean with living things on it) is like trying to garden without earth worms, soil bacteria, and fungi(Nick Dakin, Marine Aquarium)

I find it hard to believe that there are so many "nasties" out there that will kill things in your tank. We already know many bacteria go through the air and establish themselves in your tank, would this not be how they spread to an isolated pond? Also many of us seem to fear bacteria and try to pretend were stopping them from entering our aquariums. Fish themselves carry bacteria of numerous types on their skin, as well as live plants, inverts, and anything else you add from an established tank.

This quote also seems relevant


In my experience, it is more likely parasties will enter the aquarium with their hosts, rather via other sources
(John H Tullock, Reef Aquariums)

Most likely the ponds temperature, and Ph are likely quite different from your own tank, and has the potential to kill most everything on the rocks on its own. If anything did survive, it would most likely be spores of some type of algae or plant, nothing deadly to fish or other inhabitants.

Even though the vast majority of fish keepers likely use only rock found at a pet store, or bleach or boil their rocks, there has never been a case, to my knowledge, of someone putting rock from a stream or river directly into their tank and it causing major problems. Possibly some experimentation is due from a few of us to see what happens. In my opinion, the worst that could happen is the addition of rock covered in decaying and dying life. Most likely would result in an ammonia spike which might cause problems. Bleaching, nor boiling would do much for this condition, likely scrubbing or allowing the piece to cure in a seperate tub of water would be the only means to prevent this.


As far as PVC and ABS is concerned, there have been thousands (likely hundreds of thousands) of aquarium keepers that have used either plastic in their tank without first taking precautionary measures. Id say the vast majority of hobbyists do not take any precautionary measures, and as of yet, I have not heard of anyone having a problem.

I have numerous books that talk about using PVC and ABS and they all recommend just flushing the pipes with freshwater. None give any advice that there will be possible contamination of the piping, and they all seem to agree there is only dirt and dust to contend with.