Elephant nose intelligence

[JamisonBWolsh]

Here is something I got from the internet:

A VERY good article discussing mass/brain size
http://biologi.uio.no/genfys/PDFfiler/GN/JEB199,603.pdf

"Since mormyrids seem to be successful fishes, making up some 10 % of the African species of freshwater fish (Roberts, 1975), and are abundant
enough to be of local commercial importance (Petr, 1968), it is
relevant to ask what advantageous abilities are provided by this
exceptionally costly brain. It is likely that these abilities not only
include electroreception, a highly effective means of orientation
and communication in turbid waters, but also social
communication, which appears to be well developed in
mormyrids." from the aBOVE article


Laymens definations of the above:
http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/fish.htm
http://www.cmnh.org/dinoarch/2001Jun/msg00573.html

Here is a Link on describing how to "listen" to them:
http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/biology/electric_fish/electric_fish.html


So the elephant nose brain is larger then that of humans. They are the Only living organisms that have a larger brain then us. A Very interesting fact, I might add.

I found many opinions on the usenets stating they are a VERY intelligent fish, but no scientific article linking them with their intelligence level. Are they more intelligent then any other aquarium fish? IMO, Yes, they are. I have one in my tank and I am constantly amused at its antics with the other fish. When you have the time, READ the first article. A VERY interesting reading!

Let me also add they live 25+ years!!!!

[pinballqueen]

My mother has a silver dolphin mormyrid, and I agree whole-heartedly that they are just about the smartest animal I've ever seen....This fish recognizes its owner, to the point that when my mother has to put her hands in the tank (to rebury plants, remove dead leaves, etc.) the fish comes over to her to be petted. I tried it, and the fish ignored me, but didn't run away or anything....

The only problem I have with this species is that they refuse to breed in captivity and therefore all of them are collected from the wild. I would say that their intelligence has something to do with their refusal to mate (i.e., the water conditions are never exactly perfect, and they seem to know that the "tiny little lake" they are living in would never support a brood...) Also, people buy these animals from the pet store without being informed that they are not like a bottom feeder and need a carnivorous diet. This lack of information is not from lack of asking, the pet stores just don't know this unless they have done the research on the species (and how many lfs's that you know of research the fish before they order and then tell all of their employees the requirements of every fish in the store?....didn't think so...). I had to tell our lfs owner why his baby-whales were dying (as opposed to the other way around...).

They're not an easy species to keep, but the rewards are rich when you know just how smart these guys are....hell, I've had dogs and cats that weren't as smart or friendly.....

[JacksontoKobe]

I would have to put and Oscar up there with any aquarium fish.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Are you serious? There is no way you can compare an oscar to an elephant nose...Its like comparing Einstein to a person with an IQ of 75 or less.... Just cant be done

[vfrex]

This is coming from jamison, someone who has repeatedly bashed oscars and has never owned one. There ARE stories of owner responsive oscars.

[JamisonBWolsh]

I never said oscars are bad fish. Some of them are a truly Magnificient FISH. I heard stories that they will come up and let you pet them.. But most people keep them in small tanks, so that can be a problem. BUT this is not a discussion on oscars. Its about Elephant noses.

[Mattimeo]

If it's a discussion on elephant noses, then why did you bother talking about oscars???

I know of people with oscars in lage amazonia style setups, and they're jsut as tame as they are in smaller tanks.

[JamisonBWolsh]

I never brought Oscars up. JacksonKobe did...



edit:


Good point Matt. I did reply. I shouldnt have. Without a response...well.. you do the math.

[Mattimeo]

I know, but why did you reply to that?? Don't tell people not to talk about them if you are as well...

[undertow]

:) Wow! I had no idea they are that intelligent! My next door neighbour owns a common Elephant Nose, and he already had some inclanation about its intelligence. But I have a feeling he'll be pleasantly surprised.


When you listen to the electric pulses from this fish, it sorta sounds like a dolphin or whale. This is how they communicate as well, correct?

[pinballqueen]

flames, anyone?

What were we talking about again?

:D

[JamisonBWolsh]

I dont think they use electrical impulses. I think is a vocal communication above our hearing. I bet Matt, slip, Rtr, richter, or many other poeple could help ya on that. But dolphins come close to body mass/brain size compared to human brains. Another intelligent mammal. The elephant nose brain is LARGER then humans. Cool tidbit huh?

[slipknottin]

brain size vs. body weight does not neccisarily mean something is smart or not smart.

example- two humans who have the same size brain (20 pounds), one is skinny and weighs 100 pounds (20% brain) and the other is 1000 pounds (2% brain). Now does this mean that the skinny person is going to be smarter than the overweight one?


I said before, most likely the brain size is directly related to the amount of senses it uses. Many mice have brain size vs. body weight almost identical to humans.


brain weight in vertebrates does not in general appear to increase linearly with body weight, so that heavy vertebrates have proportionally smaller brains than light vertebrates, and many small mammals have, in terms of these simple ratios, relatively larger brains than that of humans. . .

[CyberDrgn]

I'll totally confuse the conversation. Could I put an elephant nose in my Oscar tank?

I forgot to mention that was a very interesting article

[JamisonBWolsh]

Slip: very true.


However, It uses the brain size for the electrical pulses as well as comminication and social interaction.

[slipknottin]

I was watching a show a couple nights ago on Mako sharks.

Apparently they are one of the smartest fishes, and most likely the smartest shark in the world. They were showing how the Makos learn and remember.


Just found another good quote


comparative studies across species indicate the brain size is not necessarily a good predictor of perceptual or cognitive abilities. Brain size increases with body size. A cow’s brain, for example, is much larger than a human’s brain, but no one suggests cows are smarter than humans. For more on the relationship between brain size and body size, see the Developmental Structure in Brain Evolution, published in the journal, Behavioral and Brain Sciences. In addition, this Bryn Mawr comparative neuroanatomy site helps to visualize the relationship between body size and brain size.

Scientists agree that it is not the size of the brain that predicts intelligence, but the size of the neocortex, which is the upper region of the cerebral cortex of the brain. For more on the brain and the cerebral cortex, see Neuroscience for Kids. The neocortex is the region of the brain that is involved in most complex brain functions such as memory, perceptual awareness, language and consciousness. Only mammals have a neocortex; reptiles, amphibians, and fish do not. Scientists commonly agree that self-awareness, often measured by a “mirror test,” is exclusive to higher primates, such as humans and great apes (although a recent study of dolphins indicates that they react to a mirror image of themselves).

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/asktheexpert.php/5.html

[pinballqueen]

to answer Undertow's question, yes, that is a form of communication. Not quite as sophisticated as dolphins and whales (the warm-blooded variety), but still more complex than even a dog or cat, if I am remembering correctly. These fish react to the impulses that the human body gives off, as well as pheromones that we produce, and this is so sensitive that they can differentiate between two different people, even if they are the same gender, body mass, and genetics. My mother's fish can tell her hand from mine, and reacts accordingly. He/she will just look at my hand, but will swim right up to hers and caress it, like it wants to be touching her. It's really amazing, because it's more than just recognizing by sight, like most fish, but also unique electrical impulses that we produce without even realizing it.

I'm not saying the fish is self-aware, but they are aware, at least...

[JamisonBWolsh]

Your right Slip about bodymass/brain size.
You fail to mention:

1.) how much of that brain do they use?

Cows and mice uses a VERY small portion. HUmans use 20 percent.


you forget to mention that ELEPHANT noses uses more of that brain because of the function of the electrical organ. They need ALOt more o2 to the brain so they can use it more (as said in the scientific article).

Didnt it say it uses 60 percent?

[JamisonBWolsh]

Pinball queen says it all. It KNOWS who its owner is. A real life experience.

[slipknottin]

ive never seen any documented proof on what percentage of the brain animals (including humans) use. I believe its just estimates.


The article says elephant noses brains use 60% of the O2 they take in, but it doesnt say what percentage of their brain their using.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Slip: Is there anyway we can measure intelligence in fish? Humans have IQ tests. I dont think a fish is willing to take one of those. I never read one ARTICLE that suggests intelligence in any aquarium fish? Got any of those articles handy? I would bet the Elephant nose would rate #1.

The Dolphin is much smarter then the mako shark BTW. The most intelligent mammal in the ocean... or so Im told

[JamisonBWolsh]

Quote from that article:
However, the results presented here suggest that, in the electric fish
Gnathonemus petersii (elephant nose), the brain is responsible for
approximately 60 % of body O2 consumption, a figure
three times higher than that for any other vertebrate
studied, including man. The exceptionally high energetic
cost of the G. petersii brain appears to be a consequence
both of the brain being very large and of the fish being
ectothermic.

This must say something on the subject.......

[pinballqueen]

Not to be a knowitall (okay, maybe a little)...sharks aren't mammals. They're fish, and primitive fish at that. Smart, yes, but primitive.

I would think that a problem-solving experiment involving fish might shed some light upon things (like rat testing with mazes, tool usage and sign language for apes, etc....) Maybe setting up a fishy obstacle course for a fish....sounds like a neat science project, if you ask me....

[slipknottin]

There are plenty of people who think IQ tests are BS...

there really is no way to tell how smart something is.

02 usage for the brain simply means its using its brain alot... doesnt mean its smart. It could also mean it doesnt move a whole lot so it doesnt need to dedicate any of that 02 to its muscles.


to test the makos, they were using a double sided pole, one side had a square block, the other had a ball. when the mako touched the ball side, they gave it a fish, when it touched the block side they gave it a plastic fish. It learned quickly to only touch the ball side.

[Fishiebusiness]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
Your right Slip about bodymass/brain size.
You fail to mention:

1.) how much of that brain do they use?

Cows and mice uses a VERY small portion. HUmans use 20 percent.


you forget to mention that ELEPHANT noses uses more of that brain because of the function of the electrical organ. They need ALOt more o2 to the brain so they can use it more (as said in the scientific article).

Didnt it say it uses 60 percent?

What?? You really think 80% of our brain is useless? It takes a lot of fat and resources to make brain mass. If animals didn't need half their brain, the ones that wasted energy on making double the brain needed would be selected against and go extinct. Its just how evolution works.

The 10% of your brain thing has been entirely misconstrued from its original meaning.

Also elephant noses do indeed use their electrical fields to communicate. They have intricate patterns which they vary their electrical fields with to communicate with other elephant noses in the same area.

[JamisonBWolsh]

I never said 80 percent of our brain is useless. We just dont know how to use it. As we evolve, perhaps we will use more of it. Remember, when we were primates, we used alot less. What will happen to us if we use 100 percent? Who knows. Alot of poeple say ESP and various other senses will be improved. All I know is we use 20 percent...the other 80 percent goes unused because we dont know how to use it....YET. How this all comes togethor with the elephant nose? who knows?

I guess for us humans to EVOLVE there has to be a change in the environment or life itself.

[Anton Wernher]

When we were primates? :\

[pinballqueen]

let's not turn this into a debate of evolutionism/creationism, shall we?

Besides, it even says in the Bible that we evolve....that all things evolve....I'll leave it at that, because I can't remember the exact verse or anything.....

[Anton Wernher]

I wasn't... Last time I checked humans belong to the primate family.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Anton Wernher
I wasn't... Last time I checked humans belong to the primate family.

:D i dont see how there is any proof that we are smarter now than "when we were primates" either.

As i said, there is no way to tell what percentage of our brains we use or how intelligent anyone or anything is.

[pinballqueen]

:D

[JamisonBWolsh]

Slip: I have seen COUNTLESS documentaries that stated we used 20 percent of our brains (some of us.. less :) ) Proof that we were smarter then the first moments our ancestors climbed out of the trees and started to walk. Hey....they didnt know how to make fire. We are VASTLY more intelligent then they were. OUr minds and bodies evolved to what it is today. For the other strains of primates, they failed because us homo sapiens beat them in understanding tools and we killed them off. Just like the elephant nose evolved to become what it is today. 10 percent of all freshwater fish in africa...its alot IMO.


This is a SCIENTIFIC discussion. Please dont involve Religion into it.

[slipknottin]

more intelligent?

without any contact with other humans we wouldnt know how to make fire... heck, the majority of us couldnt figure out how to eat berries.
the fact that someone at sometime discovered how to make and use fire seems much more intelligent than us being told it by another person. Us knowing how to make fire now is a result of being able to socialize and remember, not creativity or logic. I dont see how that argument proves anything.


How do they prove that we 20% of our brains? and what did we do with the other 80%, is that just for show? so our head isnt crooked or anything?

[pinballqueen]

Knowledge and intelligence are two different animals. You know how to make fire because you were taught by someone else, who was taught by yet another person.

Creativity and intelligence are related, however. The FIRST guy to rub sticks together was very creative and had problem solving ability. The inventor of the paper clip? Same thing. Creativity is what separates us from primates...

Also, science and religion are not necessarily exclusive, but, like I said (and so did you), this isn't the place for it....

[Fishiebusiness]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
I never said 80 percent of our brain is useless. We just dont know how to use it. As we evolve, perhaps we will use more of it. Remember, when we were primates, we used alot less. What will happen to us if we use 100 percent? Who knows. Alot of poeple say ESP and various other senses will be improved. All I know is we use 20 percent...the other 80 percent goes unused because we dont know how to use it....YET. How this all comes togethor with the elephant nose? who knows?

I guess for us humans to EVOLVE there has to be a change in the environment or life itself.

Who says primates use a smaller percentage of their brains than we do? 80% unused because we dont know how to use it yet? All this borders on pseudoscience and I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but i'd like to see.

[slipknottin]

*cough*

http://www.theness.com/articles/brain-nejs0201.html


By multiple independent lines of reasoning it is clear that humans typically use most of their brain for normal functioning.

[JamisonBWolsh]

So them this proves that the Elephant nose most be intelligent. Example: My elephant nose been in my tank since it was young (bought the smallest one at 2 inches), so it never encountered other fish species that are in my tank from the wild. But it uses creativity to "play with the other fish". It knows one way to "irritate" my petricola catfish, it would use its nose and go under the catfish while it swims and the catfish swims away. Otherwise, the catfish doesnt budge. Any other fish that tries to move the catfish, fails. With my tinfoils and affinis, it swims next to the fishes gills and uses the nose to gently coax the fish away from the elephant nose. and then swims with them untill they swim away. It LEARNS ways to "irritate" other fish that disrespects the elephant nose. I heard of one person who kept a BGK and elephant nose in the same tank and the Elephant nose killed the ghost after a while...


This is one CREATIVE fish!

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by slipknottin
*cough*

http://www.theness.com/articles/brain-nejs0201.html



Not a great source

An organization dedicated to the promotion of science and reason, the investigation of paranormal and pseudoscientific claims

[slipknottin]

is that creative? or is that learning? Does it repeat the behavior and learn from it? or is a "chance" happening.

There are numerous sites that back up the claims on the one i just gave.

http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/10_percent_of_brain.html
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm
http://vilenski.org/science/humanbody/hb_html/nervoussys.html

[JacksontoKobe]

First of all wow this post has received alot of replies from when I checked in last. Second of all what are you saying Oscars arent won of the more intelligent aquarium fish Jamison are you kidding me get a clue. How old are you? Where are all these documents you state you have all the time? You say one thing and the document never takes it to that extent. One more question???? What you think Oscars arent smart? HA LOL

[Ronne]

When it comes to animals/fish being smart or intelligent, it comes down to the species' "learned" instincts. An individuals insticts are programmed thru the animals ancestors. Certainly animals and fish are capable of learning, but the majority of its behavior is purely instictive, even in the case of those bred in captivity over generations. A fish that learns something that is beneficial to its well-being will pass that information on to its offspring, therefore making it somewhat instictive in successive generations.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Ronne
A fish that learns something that is beneficial to its well-being will pass that information on to its offspring, therefore making it somewhat instictive in successive generations.

actually alot of animals dont have any communication skills at all, and can not pass information down from generation to generation or their peers. I know alot of birds and reptiles are like this, i can only imagine it applies to alot of fish species also.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by slipknottin
is that creative? or is that learning? Does it repeat the behavior and learn from it? or is a "chance" happening.

There are numerous sites that back up the claims on the one i just gave.

http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/10_percent_of_brain.html
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm
http://vilenski.org/science/humanbody/hb_html/nervoussys.html

You used a "urban legends" and "snopes" as a site....try a scientific site please..Im loomking also

[carpguy]

Somewhere over on yon shelf there is a book with an interesting bit on wolves, dogs, problem-solving and brain sizes in wild vs. domesticates. It'll have to wait for another day. I found Mind of the Raven first, which has a Chapter 27 Brains and Brain Volume.

Just some highlights:

"…in general, brain size increases proportionately to body mass. If brain size is greater than what would be predicted by body size alone, that is called the 'residual factor', and is a measure of the brains 'encephalization'. Humans are some of the most encephalized animals in the world, second only to some species of dolphins [ravens are the most encephalized bird]…

We intuitively infer that intelligence is correlated to brain size, and this inference is generally supported by a variety of criteria. It is also true, however, that we can't credibly claim that one species is more intelligent than another unless we specify intelligent with respect to what, since each animal lives in a different world of its own sensory inputs and decoding mechanisms of those inputs

Brain tissue is metabolically as active and hence as expensiveas muscle, and it is active day and night. Our brain accounts for only about 1.5 percent of our body weight, but it demands about 20 percent of our energy supply".

On a quick logic check:

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh

you forget to mention that ELEPHANT noses uses more of that brain because of the function of the electrical organ. They need ALOt more o2 to the brain so they can use it more (as said in the scientific article).
[/B]

doesn't that mean that they're not using it for thinking?

As far as that vastly more intelligent than our predecessors bit, Neanderthals had a larger brain case than we do, absolutely and relatively. Quite a bit larger.

[pinballqueen]

It might be a worthwhile study to see if LEARNED (as opposed to instinctive) behavior is passed on to offspring. That would indicate (to me, anyway) that there is higher brain function involved. Not learned from humans, from one fish to its offspring.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh


You used a "urban legends" and "snopes" as a site....try a scientific site please..Im loomking also

did you read the links? they both use actual data from other studies and papers. :rolleyes:

[Ronne]

actually alot of animals dont have any communication skills at all, and can not pass information down from generation to generation or their peers. I know alot of birds and reptiles are like this, i can only imagine it applies to alot of fish species also.

I am interested to hear what animals don't have any means of communication. Species lacking communication would have become extinct shortly after evolving.

[slipknottin]

how so? many animals are born fully independent and never see their parents...

sea turtles, birds, many fish, etc.

there are also many animals that can not "learn" from things, and dont have ability to rely complex messages.

[Ronne]

Exactly, they survive on instinct, the most primitive form of communication between some species.

[pinballqueen]

animals have to be able to communicate in some way in order to find each other and mate.....

as for communication with offspring, no, some species don't. Their behavior starts out completely instinctive.

[slipknottin]

so your saying, if a bird learns that something is bad, it will pass it down to its young as instinct?

[pinballqueen]

it's been a neat discussion, time for me to go home....

[slipknottin]

and not all animals need communication to reproduce...

many animals can reproduce asexually, and many others are hermaphrodites.

[Ronne]

so your saying, if a bird learns that something is bad, it will pass it down to its young as instinct?

A trait does not become instictive from one generation to the next, that's the beauty of species evolution. And if the individual learns something that is extraordinaril bad, chances are it will not survive to pass on its genes to offspring anyways!

By the way, this is a great thread! Genetics and animal behaviour is a very interesting read if you have spare time.

[pinballqueen]

Okay, so among animals that DON'T clone themselves....

I'm going, I promise!

[slipknottin]

too bad you cant delete your own thread, huh?

we are discussing intelligence in creatures... and most or all of this applies to your "elephant nose"

Youve taken this off topic thus far.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Ronne


A trait does not become instictive from one generation to the next, that's the beauty of species evolution. And if the individual learns something that is extraordinaril bad, chances are it will not survive to pass on its genes to offspring anyways!

By the way, this is a great thread! Genetics and animal behaviour is a very interesting read if you have spare time.

alright... :D

I think when we humans figure out how or if evolution works we will find out most of these answers. No one really knows how instincts are created and "altered"

[JamisonBWolsh]

I been looking but I cant find any info from a SCIENTIFIC source. ALOT of "urban legends and myth pages" but not from a trusted source. I been taught in school and watched Documentaries that states that we use 20 percent of our brains.



BUT LETS GET BACK TO THE ELEPHANT NOSE!!!!

[JamisonBWolsh]

I just called my dad, who is a Doctor in Pathology, and he stated that we do NOT use 100 percent of our brains. He was unsure the percentage...

[Ronne]

I think when we humans figure out how or if evolution works we will find out most of these answers. No one really knows how instincts are created and "altered"

I agree 100%. Humans are just babies on the evolutionary scale of things. Hard to believe that our little fishies are looking at us with all those years of instincts or knowledge or learned behaviour or whatever it is that we decided they have!!

Slip- you should try and get this thread published, I think we're going places! ;)

[slipknottin]

i was taught in school that during night plants switched and started putting out C02. :rolleyes:

i think about half the stuff i learned in school is wrong.


here are some more links:

http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/Social/0103/s00216d.html

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
I just called my dad, who is a Doctor in Pathology, and he stated that we do NOT use 100 percent of our brains. He was unsure the percentage...

my mom sells books, she just said we use all of our brains.

:rolleyes:

[Ronne]

Moms do use all of their brains.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by slipknottin


my mom sells books, she just said we use all of our brains.

:rolleyes:

Not to downplay your mom or anything....BUT i think a DOCTOR would have a little more knowledge on the subject,....

now if the question deals with books...

[slipknottin]

what do you think is written in books? :confused:


but of course, a doctor specalizing in diseases must know how much of our brains we use. :rolleyes:

you still cant find any links showing that we only use a small percentage of our brains.

[JamisonBWolsh]

LETS get back to ELEPHANT NOSES!!!


Anyone have any stories about their elephant noses? please reply???

[slipknottin]

typical :rolleyes:

[JacksontoKobe]

Jamison I understand we do not usse all of our brains. But seriously how old are you? My mommy my Daddy oh my.