Snail deaths...within minutes!?!?

[llebcire]

Yeah, it's kind of embarrassing...but true...and I am VERY concerned...whole thing almost makes me want to tear everything down and give up...but I knew saltwater was fragile going into it...

Anyway, last night I put 5 snails and 1 anemone in my tank, and the snails were all dead within a half hour...this morning, the anemone seems to have suffered the same fate (all shrunk down).

Little background:

75 gallon overflow with wet/dry filter and Prizm skimmer. Been up for about 6 weeks with 3 small fish, 2 damsels and a clown, all healthy, good color, clean fins, and eating very well. Did two water changes, 15 gal each, with "Culligan" RO water from Wal-Mart, use RO for top-off, but initially filled the tank with tap water. Use Crystal Sea mix from Marine Enterprises.

Tank was purchased second-hand from a local fish store, doesn't do marine any longer. Sat empty for a while, including about 40 lbs of now "dead" rock. I soaked the rock for a few days in clean water b4 using it, but didn't actually sterilize it with bleach or anything of the sort.

Only negative as of late is the diatom bloom, but everyone says that it's normal in the first month or so.

This leads me up to a week ago, when I added 10 snails and 10 blue-legged hermits. Snails were dead within an hour, but I still have between 6 and 10 crabs left (can't really tell as I've never seen more than 6 at once). I acclimated the snails for about half an hour, including adding water from my tank to their bag.

Of course I thought something was amiss, and in speaking with my local Marine store, he said it was probably nitrates.

Saturday night, I did another 15 gallon change. Tested the water Sunday, all was good, and tested it again yesterday morning. I use Red Sea's Marine Lab test kit. All good, nitrates @ 30.

Last night, went back to lfs, took some water and had him test it, his results were the same as mine, so he thought snails and a hardy anemone would be fine. Guess not.

I acclimated everything for an hour last night, very slowly adding and drainingg water from bags, and snails stopped moving within a half hour, anemone this morning.

Salinity is fine, ammonia and nitrites @ 0, nitrates @ 30, temp @ 79 degrees.

Any thoughts/help/suggestions? Something else that I should test for? I want to expand my tank, but not at the expense of more inverts.

Sorry to be so wordy!

[liquafaction]

nitrates are a little high for inverts. I think others will tell you your tank is a little new for an anemone. I would also wonder if your lfs has ever used that tank as a hospital tank, maybe using copper or something. Copper would leach into your live rock. If there was any copper present, that would kill your crabs.

inverts don't like nitrates, or metals.

[TKOS]

I would have guessed copper as well. Also I would not get another anemone. They are super sensitive and you should wait for a tank to be set up for at least a year before ever trying to put one of those in there.

[llebcire]

I would assume that there is a test available for copper? All of the snails were put on the rock instead of the substrate, so that would be worth checking out.

Worst case scenario...if there was/is copper, and it is in the rocks, is there anything that can be done short of disposing of them?

Thanks for all of the help!

[Corax]

Nitrates did not kill yours snails. The only inverts that have a problem with nitrates are sessile, photo-synthetic ones. The reason for this is that those types of inverts get the majority of their food from a type of algae growing inside of them. They, the inverts, live off the waste of this algae. When nitrates are excessive, the algae overfeeds and thus the invert is poisoned by the excessive waste. Mobile inverts, snails, crabs, shrimp, no not have that problem. I have a 29 with high (60+) nitrates that has lots of mobile inverts roaming around. Oh, and some species of starfish do have difficulty with nitrates, but not all. My chocolate chip star has been dealing with the nitrates for months with no apparent ill effects. Bristleworms galore. Limpet snails that are multiplying at an alarming rate. So I honestly doubt it was nitrates.

As suggested, I would look at copper. Once copper has been used to treat a tank, it NEVER leaves completely, and any copper is too much for inverts. You don't know the entire history of your tank, so I'd say someone used Quick Cure or something like that back in the day, and now you are suffereing from it.

[llebcire]

I just purchased a Doc Wellfish dry-tab copper test kit.

Results are between 0.15 & .025 ppm, more like 0.15.

In thinking about it, when I filled the tank I used a mixture of hot and cold water from the tap...and of course I have copper pipes on the hot water heater.

So, is the small amount that I tested enough to cause death in inverts?

[Corax]

Copper in pipes has been beaten to death by experts and hobbyists alike, and frankly, I'm taking the word of a chemical engineer I usta work with. Copper pipes will NOT contaminate your water. I'm not an expert here, I can't explain why that is, but she is and she did for me a few years ago. So I cannot say where that copper came from. However, yes, that is more than enough to toast your inverts. Copper is instantaneously fatal for them most of the time. Sadly, once it is in the water, it stays. There are some products that say they can remove it, but I've not used them. Check out Marine Depot and see what they have.

[frazin78]

Not to tell you that your snails are still alive but this is what was my recent experience with the snails.

Put him in the tank he was fine for a week.. One day I find him upside down and all curled into his shell. Instead of shooting him out I put him back onto the rock and the next morning he moved and started cleaning again. I am not too sure what a true dead snail looks like but I ams ure once they are upside down they play dead... if they stay still for awhile they maybe sleeping.

I would give them a chance before just shooting them out.

Jc

[llebcire]

First, I really appreciate all of the help and advice from the forum. It would seem as though the copper theory is right on target from what I learned tonight.

I went back to my lfs, (owner is only employee, has over 100 tanks, installs/services marine tanks in the area, easy to talk to), and began discussing my situation and the forum's copper theory with him.

First, he was a little taken back as to where the copper came from, until I reminded him that I purchased the tank used and from which local store. He started asking a few questions about my tank, mentioned a few things that you wouldn't know without first-hand knowledge of my particular tank, (Oceanic 75, how my overflow was set up differently than normal and that one of the four PC bulbs was out, etc.), and then started telling me about it.

Apparently, he was called to a residence about 4 months ago for a field call to find out why their snails kept dying. Upon investigation, he found the copper to be too high, more in the 2 ppm range. One glaring deficiency was that the overflow outlet pipe is made of copper!! After he mentioned that, I do remember it from setting the tank up, but of course thought nothing about it!

So his thoughts were to replace the pipe with PVC, do a water change, and add charcoal to the filter. He said to run the charcoal for two weeks, change water and charcoal again, run another few weeks and test the copper levels. His only concern was that the silicone has absorbed copper, not the rocks, but I don't know if I agree with that. Worst case scenario, I could have an invert tank but would have to use charcoal forever. I think that would be too risky. If I don't fix it, I might not ever have to worry about ich!!

Guess that solves the mystery of the dying snails...and the presence of copper!

Thanks again, and I did learn more about aclimating snails IF I get to that point in the future!

[llebcire]

Originally posted by Corax
Copper in pipes has been beaten to death by experts and hobbyists alike, and frankly, I'm taking the word of a chemical engineer I usta work with. Copper pipes will NOT contaminate your water. I'm not an expert here, I can't explain why that is, but she is and she did for me a few years ago. So I cannot say where that copper came from. However, yes, that is more than enough to toast your inverts. Copper is instantaneously fatal for them most of the time. Sadly, once it is in the water, it stays. There are some products that say they can remove it, but I've not used them. Check out Marine Depot and see what they have.

Hmm...I don't know either...but, the circumstantial evidence wouldn't be good for Michael...

[liquafaction]

In thinking about it, when I filled the tank I used a mixture of hot and cold water from the tap...and of course I have copper pipes on the hot water heater


I made a similar mistake using hot tap water. I was cycling my tank, and my cycle just stopped. I do not know if it was from using hot water for sure, but that is the only thing I can think of doing wrong. I do not have copper plumbing in my house, but I was concerned with the metal in the hot water tank.

[Corax]

Originally posted by llebcire
Apparently, he was called to a residence about 4 months ago for a field call to find out why their snails kept dying. Upon investigation, he found the copper to be too high, more in the 2 ppm range. One glaring deficiency was that the overflow outlet pipe is made of copper!! After he mentioned that, I do remember it from setting the tank up, but of course thought nothing about it!


Now that would make a difference. Using copper with saltwater will cause the copper to corrode where it wouldn't with plain freshwater. The corroded copper would leech into the saltwater and, voila, you have dead snails. No metals of any kind, least of all copper, should ever be used in a fishtank, neither fresh nor salt.

[llebcire]

Here are some pics of the problem...fixing this today and doing a water change...thanks for all of your help!!


http://home.mchsi.com/~llebcire/

[Corax]

Yeap, looks guilty to me! I'd also say you've shown us the source of those nitrates as well... That wet/dry is a liability if you ever intened to have sessile inverts (corals). See Joeo's thread for more info =)