new tank, dead damsels, help....

[Phildo]

I converted my 225 cichlid tank to saltwater, I'm going with fish only. After everything has been set up, I put in 6 damselfish to begin a cycle. One has died almost every day since I put them in, the last one just died this morning. Yesterday I went to a different fish shop and got 3 more in case the original 6 were diseased or something and one of them looks bad now as well.
At first I really thought they were a bad batch from the first store because some looked bad in the bag. But the last few to die were the stronger looking ones when I first got them.
I can't think what could possibly be wrong that nothing lives in my aquarium for more than a few days. I'm backtracking everything and I changed out the old gravel, washed the new sand, etc...
Any suggestions?

:shake:

[MonoSebaelover]

Welcome to Aquaria Central! What is your salinity? And how long did you acclimate the fish? These are important factors on why the fish may be dying. I would say that if the last two die then the best way to cycle your tank is to go to the grocery store get 3 or so Cocktail Shrimp, throw them in the water and let them rot and disintegrate. This is the best way to cycle a tank, because if you just cycle the tank with those 6 damsels then the tanks bio-load will only be able to hold those 6 damsels and everytime you go to add a new fish you will have a mini cycle. With the Shrimp, they produce more ammonia than all fish are able to produce so you will have a great number of bacteria if you do it that way. Anyway, hope this helps and good luck.

[OrionGirl]

Do you have test kits? If not, pick some up. It's important to moitor ammonia and nitrites for new setups.

And I agree with MSL--I'd go so far as to remove the damsels and cycle fishlessly. Otherwise, you will end up with damsels that you may not really want in your tank.

[Phildo]

Thanks for the welcome and the lightning quick response, this is a great board I just discovered yesterday.

Rotten cocktail shrimp? Really? I've been out of the marine hobby for a while, this is a new one for me, wow I can't wait to explain that one to my wife, hehehe. Would 2 be enough for my 225?

My salinity is 1.022 and I acclimated my fish for about an hour, floating them and slowly adding 1/4 to 1/2 cups of my tank water to their bag every 5 - 10 mins.
So could I just leave the dead damsels in there and get the same result or are they too small to decompose and make a difference. I also have a 12 oz bottle of TLC bacteria that I was going to dump in to help jumpstart the cycle, but held off when fish started dying.

I do have test kits but have yet to test anything, thinking that nothing would be happening. Maybe I'll go test everything now.
My solution for the damsels was a grouper or lionfish after the cycle :)

[mogurnda]

Not sure why a shrimp is necessary if you have a source of rotting damsels.

[OrionGirl]

For a solid cycle on a 225, I would go with 9-10 cocktail chrimp. You can leave the fish in there, but I prefer to remove them--aesthetics rather than logic. They serve the same purpose--a source of ammonia for the nitrifying bacteria.

TLC? Haven't heard of it, but many, if not most, of the bacteria in a bottle products are bunk. If this product does not need refridgeration and come with an expiration date, don't get your hopes up.

As for testing--keep in mind that the moment a fish or uncured rock is introduced into your tank, there will be ammonia. How much depends on the number of fish or decaying matter--but it's there.

We had a 3-stripe damsel that we added to a tank with a very large lion fish. And then in with an octopus. And then we finally traded the brute in to the LFS. Damsels are very aggressive, and very good at avoiding predation. I'd rather put my money into fish I want to keep--especially having seen what a pain it was to get rid of that jerk, and recalling the injuries he inflicted on other fish.

[Phildo]

My wife made me take out the 2 dead damsels earlier this morning. So 2 left, if they die I'm leaving them in and heading out to buy the shrimp.
But is there a reason that they're dying other than it being a new tank? I'm worried that something isn't right in the water. When they die they darken and breathe heavy, like they're under stress. But before they start doing that, they look fine and eat okay. I don't get it.
And you're completely right about the little brutes, this isn't my first salt tank I've had them give me hell before. I just figure in a 225 with all the rocks and stuff, the only way out is death.

[Phildo]

test results:

ph: 8.1-8.2
ammonia: barely registering in at .2 or lower
nitrite: 0
salinity: 1.022

I believe these levels shouldn't be harsh enough to kill off damsels, I'm wondering what could be the cause. I'm starting to worry about some kind of toxin from a piece of decorative coral or something like that. My coral was in a covered bin behind my house for a couple of years, but I washed it pretty well upon putting it in my tank.
The other thing I can think is that I didn't really clean out my wet dry filter too well after the cichlids. Wondering if that could have something to do with the damsels dying.

[TKOS]

It pretty much sonds like ammonia and nitrites are killing them off. Nitrites compete with oxygen in the gills and make it hard for fish to breathe. Ammonia poisons them. That is why test kits are so important. If your levels are really high then do a partial water change and get them back down.

[OrionGirl]

The test results don't seem unusual--but it does require a large ammonia source to raise the titer level to registerable in that volume of water. I would suspect that there may be some organics breaking down from the rock or filter. Ever use medications when it was FW? How did you acclimate the fish to your tank? I'd raise the salinity up to 1.024 or 1.025--much higher than what most LFS run, but closer to natural salt water. If you didn't slowly acclimate the damsels, they could have been coming from water that was closer to 1.019.

[Phildo]

So that sounds like how they're dying, fighting for oxygen, breathing heavy and turning dark. Do my levels seem high enough to cause that though?
If it was poison or a toxin they would die immediately right? I think the longest one made it 10 days.

I am skimming with a protien skimmer and having to empty it every two days because it fills up with yellow stuff. So there is definitely something in there to skim off, probably organics from the cichlids if I guess.

Never really used anything as far as medications go on the cichlids. Maybe a low dose of copper to treat a parasite, but that's about it. Nothing that should be this toxic though.

[Phildo]

Update:
First I want to thank all those who responded and offered advice for my damsel fish problems, next it want to say that I spent all of the rest of the day breaking down my wet dry filter (29 gal. aquarium) and scrubbing every bit of gunk left over from my previous sloppy cichlids. This should lower the ammonia a bit as the remaining 2 fish already look a lot less stressed and are breathing normally. This as well as redesigning the drip plate to rest on the lip of the 29 gallon aquarium/filter so I have even water trickle and added strength to the plastic plate.
Hopefully, tomorrow I can catch the damsels, return them to LFS and cycle fishless with cocktail shrimp as so many of you recommend.

Thanks again everyone and Happy Thanksgiving!!

[mogurnda]

Sounds like a great plan. Those two give excellent advice, don't they?

[wayne]

I have to confess I find it pretty distasteful for people to treat damsels as disposable cycle fodder because they're 'just damsels'. You haven't mentioned filtration beyond a wet dry and a skimmer, but if you haven't tried it before I'd try live rock based filtration, it works very well, and is far easier to maintain than less natural alternatives.

[Phildo]

Originally posted by mogurnda
Sounds like a great plan. Those two give excellent advice, don't they?

Yes they do, and it comes much appreciated. Believe me when I say thanks. No one at any of my LFS would have even come close to this kind of attention to my problems and great advice.
One guy actually told me "hey, Damsels die - that's just what they do!" :rolleyes:
I had no intention to lose any of my damselfish from the start, anytime I lose a fish (any fish) I feel the failure.

[Phildo]

Originally posted by wayne
I have to confess I find it pretty distasteful for people to treat damsels as disposable cycle fodder because they're 'just damsels'. You haven't mentioned filtration beyond a wet dry and a skimmer, but if you haven't tried it before I'd try live rock based filtration, it works very well, and is far easier to maintain than less natural alternatives.

I'm planning to go with a majority (if not all) Triggers once I get past the cycle, would they graze on the live rock?
I've also been thinking of investing in a nice size canister filter as well.

[OrionGirl]

Triggers will appreciate live rock in many ways. They will crunch on it, but that's good--like many fish, they need to have crunchies to keep their teeth in shape. Also, most triggers like to hise sometimes, and the nooks, crannies and caves in live rock are ideal for this.

Be careful mixing triggers. I would really talk with MSL before purchase--many triggers will not play well together. Having a big tank will provide you with more options, but triggers are notorious for overnight personality changes that result in one live trigger and a bunch of corpses. MSL has had great luck picking fish that will work together, and can probably help you in that respect.

[Phildo]

OnionGirl, your wealth of knowledge is so appreciated everytime you post a reply, I feel fortunate to have gotten your attention enough to get several helpful replys from you already. Thanks :D
Is it feasable to begin my cycle with the shrimp then add liverock after I cycle as I add triggers and such? And you're right, I started a trigger thread in the general forum which got several great suggestions and pics from MonoSebaelover who has a great trigger collection.

[MonoSebaelover]

As to the rock question, it would work fine just be sure the rock you are buying is cured rather than uncured. Generally most rocks in fish stores are cured but all the ones over the internet will have to be cured. What would be best is to begin your cycle with the little uncured rock and the shrimp, just my opinion though. And when picking out rocks try to get some with some large holes in them because like OG said they love to make homes in them. All of my triggs except the Queens (they are too big for most of the live rock plus at their size they don't really need protection :) ) have their little homes and they protect them during the day too. Anyway, hope this helps and good luck.