Those poor fish...

[Riptide]

Ever been to one of those pet stores that is just starting with marine and haven't had prior experience? I saw a few sad sights this evening. We saw a beautiful blue girdled angel today that had come in to this store about a week ago. Covered in a bad case of ich, along with a bunch of the other fish in the tank. Of their marine tanks, all were using only UG filters and were in the 10-15 gallon range at best. Half the tanks had ich. 6" butterflys were being housed in a little 10-15 gallon tanks. A very sad sight...

I just started my own tank. 55g. Has a small maroon clown and 15' of rock. It is only a week old and hasn't cycled yet. I felt so sorry for some of those fish that I couldn't help myself when I saw a racoon butterfly stuck in that tiny little tank which looked so run down.

Even though my tank hasn't cycled and his chances aren't real good, I think he has a better chance at my house than he does in that store. Wish him and I luck because his survival is far from guaranteed right now considering my tank is new. Hopefully the gods will smile upon him. :D

[Corax]

Actually, if you got that 15 lbs of liverock (I assume you meant liverock) locally, there is a very good chance he will do just fine. When you add liverock to a tank, it adds instantaneous bio-capacity (that is, the ability to support fish by processing their waste). The trick is to add more bio-capacity than your fish can produce. A small Maroon clown won't exceed what 15 lbs can handle. Now, if your 15lbs was left out of the water for an extended amount of time, like if you had it shipped overnight, then the ammonia will become a problem and yer little guy won't do so well.

What kind of Maroon is it? White or gold stripe? I have a gold stripe that I adore =)

[Rudy]

Hey Rip,

Hence the reason most of us on here, I am willing to bet anyway, avoid such stores all together. This is often the case at Petco, Doctor Pets, and any other franchise or Mall pet store. :(

Good luck.

[Riptide]

Yep, the 15' of rock I have was already cured before I bought it and had been sitting in the dealer's tank for almost a month. Things still need to settle down in the tank though as ammonia is still up and will probably stay up for a while longer now that we've done a no-no and added another fish to the system.

I may have made a huge mistake though as upon very close examination it appears this butterfly may have actually had ich. It was just impossible to see it under the conditions they had at the store (tons of bubbles in the tiny tank, cruddy lighting). There are a few small white spots stuck to his side. At this point it's to late to do much about it though other than hope the clown is healthy enough to resist it and that the butterfly will eventually start to eat for me and fight it off. I have seen fish recover from disease without any treatment before so we'll see... I have a 36w double helix on the way which might help the situation a tad, though I know UV is no panacea.

The racoon has been very busy picking at what little live rock I have which I take is a good sign. He seems pretty alert, not lethargic or sick at all. With any luck the ich won't be a problem and he'll get better. I may end up selling him to another LFS that has nicer tanks if he gets better, we'll just have to see. He is quite the specimen: 6" in size, almost to big for my tank already.

Any suggestions on what to try and feed him? I put some flake in there yesterday that he kinda picked at but I don't think he ate much. Should I try some brine today? Once he picks my rock clean hopefully he'll start to get interested in other eats. :)

Oh, and the maroon is a juvenile still so I think his white stripes might turn to gold. The reason I believe this is since he has a darker red, almost velvety coloration. The white strip maroons seem to be a brighter shade of red so I expect this guy to develop gold stripes as he ages.

[Rudy]

You might want to try feeding the Racoon some Romaine lettuce. just stick it to the side of the tank with a suction cup. Or you can buy some seaweed leafs at the LFS. Good luck. Keep us up to date. :)

[OrionGirl]

While I understand your feelings for the fish, rescueing fish actually just encourages them to buy more fish they can't care for. Your dollars allow them to continue maintaining poor stock in bad condition.

Start testing your water now, and see where the ammonia and nitrite levels are now. Do water changes if needed. Since this will be a FO (butteflies are not reef safe), I would drop salinity down to about 1.018, and maintain it there for 6 weeks. Raise the temp to about 84--this reduces the length of the parasites life cycle. And, setup a q-tank if you're going to continue buying stock from questionable sources!

Don't mean to sound harsh, but the stores we support should be the ones that are premiums, not those with 'something' for sale.

[Corax]

I'm sorry, I thought you meant you rescued the Maroon. The Butterfly is not at all appropriate for your tank and will need to be placed into a larger tank very soon. Did the ammonia show up after you put the Butterfly in or was it already present?

To treat the ich, in addition to what Oriongirl suggests, get some minced garlic in WATER from the grocery store and soak their food in the water. This will help boost their immune systems and help them fight off the parasites. Plus the fish will go insane over the taste, mine loved it... Also, if you have one, this is one of the rare instances where a UV sterilizer will be of great help to your tank.

[Riptide]

Well, while I had the best of intentions this turned out to be absolutely disastrous. And I have learned my lesson, I believe. I will never try and "rescue" a fish from a place like that again. Firstly, because of what the other posters here mentioned (supporting a bad business) and secondly because the addition of the butterfly resulted in it's death and the sickness of my clown. And it did so very, very quickly.

Things seemed OK when I put the butterfly in there the night I got him. He swam around and picked at the live rock. The clown seemed fine as well.

Next morning they are both acting sluggish. They swim around sometimes but also spend time leaning against the side, breathing heavily. I know the signs of trouble and this was a big red flag. Immediately we tested for ammonia - only to discover it was fine. Only then to discover in my stupidity I had been using a freshwater only test kit! Doh!

To make a long story short, we whipped up a 10gallon QT tank. We placed the maroon and the butterfly in the 10g QT tank which I had just enough time to adjust salinity and temperature for. Both fish went into shock. The butterfly died within a few hours. The maroon is still alive and seems to be coming around a bit. He is swimming and not resting on the bottom now. He didn't eat last night though, which has me worried. I'll try feeding him again today.

We tested the main aquarium for ammonia with our new kit and found it to be at a level of .4 ... Which is elevated but not quite up to true toxic levels of say 1.0 or so. I'm quite honestly not sure exactly what happened to cause them to get sick so quick like that but it happened immediately after putting that butterfly in there.

Either way, the maroon if he survives is going to stay in the QT tank until the main aquarium shows no ammonia or nitrite at all. Probably at least a week. Secondly, I am going to hook up my UV sterilyzer on the main tank and get it running on there for a while.

The QT has no bio filter at all. It was hastily set up yesterday in our emergency. I will watch ammonia and do necessary water changes to keep the maroon alive in the QT until we can put him back.

What a disaster...

[Corax]

The best lessons are ones you learn the hard way. The main tank will take more than a week to clear up I'm afraid. You can help it out with water changes. Give it at least a month for the ich to die off. You should move a couple pieces of your liverock over to the Q tank. The ich MIGHT transfer with it, but your clown has already been exposed anyway. Pick the nicest ones, as the ammonia and nitrite in the main tank will damage any macro life on the rock. Throw a small powerhead (or a big one if you hafta, but restrict it a bit) in the tank and aim it at the surface to make sure the o2 levels stay up.

[Riptide]

We definitely don't intend on returning the maroon to the 55 until it stabilizes. If I get lucky and he shows no sign of disease I'll put him back in as soon as that happens. I'm hoping a couple weeks at most. I would assume an ich infection would be obvious by that time.

If he doesn't get better and comes down with ich I will ofcourse keep him out of the 55 then as well and treat the QT with copper. That way I can really lay the proverbial smack down on the ich. :)
I'll keep the UV sterilizyer going on the 55 while he recovers. Hopefully I won't have to treat and he'll be fine and so will the 55.

On the bright side the little maroon looks like he might be coming around. He took food twice from me tonight, eating more than I've seen him eat yet. He is swimming around the tank all over the place. No sitting on the bottom. We're watching ammonia closely and will do a water change tomorrow of 25% (2.5g). No bio filter I imagine means watching ammonia like a hawk.

[Rudy]

May be in your, and the fish's, best interest to buy a small powerhead and attach it to a biowheel. That is how I provide bio filtration to my Q-tank and it works very effectively. Good Luck. Experience is knowledge.

[Riptide]

Thanks Rudy. The clown ate a bit this afternoon when I got home on my lunch. I think he's going to be OK. One thing I have noticed is that marine fish are much fussier eaters than african cichlids. Mbuna and the related haplochromis type species are pigs at the dinner table, sometimes even splashing water down my shirt when I open their lid to feed them. These marine fish... much more tenuous at the dinner table.

I was happy to come home and find that my order from dr. fosters arrived several days before expected. I already put my 48" compact fluorescent fixture in place and am going to get the UV sterilyzer running on the 55 this evening.

I noticed that the 55 (which hasn't cycled yet) is getting some brown growth on the substrate of crushed coral. Will the UV sterilyzer help kill off that brown algae? I have heard brown algal growths are fairly normal for a brand new tank.

Will be doing a 50% water change in the QT tank tonight. Hopefully it will go well. :)

[Corax]

Crushed coral? Ya know, since you have a long wait to get the tank going anyway, and it is a new tank, this would be a perfect oppurtunity to change that crushed coral over to sand. A deep sand bed (DSB) would greatly aid your tank in the long run. Crushed coral will eventually cause nitrate problems, where a DSB will acually prevent them.

All you need is a few bags of play sand from Home Depot.

Also, avoid the bio-wheel suggestion. Bio wheels contribute to nitrate problems as well. Again, OK for short term, but in the long run they hurt more than they help.

[Rudy]

Originally posted by Corax
Also, avoid the bio-wheel suggestion. Bio wheels contribute to nitrate problems as well. Again, OK for short term, but in the long run they hurt more than they help. [/B]

Corax, Please explain your position on the Biowheels further. I have had nothing but GREAT success with it for my Q-tank, which has been up and running for over a year. Granted the bio load on my q-tank is likely quite low. Inquiring mind wishes to know. :confused:

I would not recommend anything short of a trickle down filter for a 55 gal or greater f/o tank. Did I mention I built my own trickle for my 125. All for only about $30, not counting filter media and sump pump of course. DIY is the way to go if you have the patience, which in my case is a big if. LOL :laugh:

[Riptide]

Corax, thankyou for the suggestions. To be honest, I kind of prefer crushed coral. And to be further honest, the reason I like it is twofold: I like the look of it better than sand and sand is just plain old trendy right now. Kind of like percula clowns (ie, nemo): everyone has them. Which is why I got the little maroon instead. I think he's prettier anyway. :D :)

If you truly believe it is a necessity to change over to the sand I will do so. But I would prefer to keep it the way it is for now. Don't get me wrong though, I *do* appreciate your suggestions even if I get stubborn sometimes. Don't forget to say "I told you so" if this ends up causing me problems: I can take it. ;)

I also am curious as to how the bio-wheels could introduce nitrate into the tank? Shouldn't any healthy biological filter produce nitrate, short of live rock which supposedly helps to remove it somehow? I will remove the bio-wheels once I get all my live rock in the tank and the spike from that is over with if you think it's necessary. I am only going to buy live rock that should present minimal die off: from my LFS, fiji that has been in his tank for at least 3 weeks curing.

Coming from freshwater, it is hard for me to understand how I can overfilter a tank. A trickle down filter ONLY for a 55g? It just seems... inadequate. I have an emperor 400 right now w/bio-wheels, prizm pro deluxe (good up to 300g), and tonight I will be putting my new double helix 36w UV sterilyzer on there. There is also a powerhead in the tank providing additional aeration. In the end, I want 55-60lbs. of LR in the tank with the maroon and 3-4 other small fish (dwarf angel, small wrasse, blenny, maybe a gramma) and some little hermit crabs for cleanup.

[Corax]

1.) Sand vs Crushed Coral - Crushed coral is bad for trapping waste in it. Over time, that waste will break down and turn into nitrate. In a sand bed, that waste is actually digested by the critters living in it. Various snails, bristleworms, etc.. They will remove the waste before it ever becomes a problem. Furthermore, the lower levels of a DSB, the anaerobic area, is inhabitted by bacteria that will process the nitrate in your tank. You will not see this while using crushed coral. If it were my tank, I'd already be scooping the coral out =)

The short answer is, biowheels are bad for your tank in the same way a wet/dry filter is. Both are notorius for being nitrate factories.

[Riptide]

I will remove the bio-wheels once the tank has finished the initial cycle and I get some more pre-cured live rock in there. I'm going to leave them for the moment, but they won't be permanent based on the advice I'm seeing from you and several others.

I'm going to leave the coral for now - and will vaccum it with the siphon every two weeks when I change water. It's only about 1" deep in front and 2" deep towards the back so there isn't a huge amount of it in there. Should be fairly easy to keep clean between the siphon and the eventual scavengers I plan on having (ie hermit crabs).

If I'm wrong and the coral ends up causing a serious problem I will remove it. I've been wrong before. ;)

[Rudy]

Originally posted by Corax
The short answer is, biowheels are bad for your tank in the same way a wet/dry filter is. Both are notorius for being nitrate factories.

I was hoping for a better explanation than that if you do not mind?

Or are you going on hearsay versus practical experience?

What do you suggest as an alternative means of filtration on a 125?

[Corax]

I ran a biowheel filter, an Emperor 400, on my 29 for 6 months. I watched week after week as the nitrates climbed steadily. I read that biowheels can contribute to nitrates due to the wet/dry nature of their mechanical operation. Apparently, as the biowheel material, or rather the bacteria on it, is exposed to alternating water/air/water/air, nitrate is produced at a far quicker rate. I do not know the reason why this is, but it also happens with those nice expensive undertank wet/dry filters. So I removed my biowheels and within a month or so my nitrate started to vanish. Now, the nitrate consistantly reads zero.

All the tank has is the Emperor 400, empty, for circulation, 40ish lbs of LR and a DSB. The same setup will work on any size tank, as long as you scale accordingly.

Had I not observed it myself, I wouldn't preach about it.

I also don't suggest biowheel for planted tanks, but that's a whole different argument alltogether =) Remember, nitrate = plantfood, thus GOOD for a planted tank... But not if it robs the c02 in the tank.

[Riptide]

I've removed the bio-wheels last night and decided to not wait until I had more stuff in there. That seemed a wiser course of action (to get them out now, rather than later).

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but with the bio-wheels out of the picture I am relying on two things for bio-filtration: the small amount of live rock I have (15'), and the small amount of area present in the emperor 400's filter box for bacteria to affix to. Other than that all I have running is my protein skimmer and a power head. I intend to add more LR, but with only a single fish to keep in there for a while the 15' should hopefully be enough to support him.

What do you think about taking some of the smaller loose pieces of LR and putting them in my emperor's filter box? Would that assist w/bio filtration? It wouldn't be wet/dry, so it shouldn't cause the problems the bio-wheels do right?

[Rudy]

Originally posted by Corax
Had I not observed it myself, I wouldn't preach about it.

Well I don't think these boards are about "preaching" they are about sharing experiences, ideas, and information.

Like I stated earlier in this thread, I have had nothing but great susccess with the biowheel I have on my q-tank and find the best way to keep down nitrates, regardless of filtration technique, is the frequency of H2O changes.

Good Luck to Riptide in your conversion to the salty side of things.

[Corax]

I've removed the bio-wheels last night and decided to not wait until I had more stuff in there. That seemed a wiser course of action (to get them out now, rather than later).

Now, later, don't really matter as long as they're gone =)

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but with the bio-wheels out of the picture I am relying on two things for bio-filtration: the small amount of live rock I have (15'), and the small amount of area present in the emperor 400's filter box for bacteria to affix to. Other than that all I have running is my protein skimmer and a power head. I intend to add more LR, but with only a single fish to keep in there for a while the 15' should hopefully be enough to support him.

As new as your tank seems to be, the biowheels were of little use to you, iologically speaking. It takes weeks - months to get them all gooped up and bacteria ridden. And no, you missed your sigle greatest piece of biological filtration...... EVERYTHING in your tank, the glass, the rocks, the floating thermometer, the hoses, etc... Anything that feels slimey, is good for your tank. That "slime" is the bacteria, (and some algae probably) growing to support life.

What do you think about taking some of the smaller loose pieces of LR and putting them in my emperor's filter box? Would that assist w/bio filtration? It wouldn't be wet/dry, so it shouldn't cause the problems the bio-wheels do right?

An excellent idea, the more water flow it gets, the better..

Rudy, I tend to preach on people when I know they're doing something unwise. Riptide's crushed coral is, in the long run at least, unwise.. I will continue to harp on him till he takes it out =)

[OrionGirl]

I agree with Corax on both accounts, and will expand a bit on the biowheel problem.

The bacteria that process ammonia and nitrites are very efficient, and capable of existing in huge colonies--every location in your tank will host them. The bacteria which process nitrates are old school--anaerobics. Not only are there fewer places for them to colonize, but they have less access to their food sources, the beds grow slower, and it's more work to digest the nitrates (oxidizing with an oxygen source is quick and efficient). So, the colony of nitrate eaters would have to be much, much larger in order to use all of the nitrates created by a much smaller colony of aerobic bacteria. With deep sand beds and live rock, you can achieve a balance when combined with water changes. If you intentionally increase the size of the colonies producing the nitrates, it's hard for the anaerobes to catch up. Will they? Maybe, eventually. But, waiting for that to happen can cause some serious problems.

Crushed coral contributes to the problem in two ways. First, the trapped detritus within the CC contributes to ammonia levels immediately--even with weekly cleaning, the waste will break down. Second, the CC is a decent place for aerobic bacteria, but even in extreme depths (I believe FishWhisperer tested up to 18 inches), it provides no place for the anaerobics to thrive.

[Riptide]

If fine sand is so totally superior to crushed coral then why is it still on the market? 10 years ago when I had my first marine tanks that is all anybody really used...

[Rudy]

I agree completely with the Crushed Coral issue. I used to use it back in the early 90's, but at that time I had it covering several large undergravel filters which were powered with multiple powerheads to create a nice water, hence O2, flow through the coral. However, I am sure there remained anaerobic spots anyway. That type of system (crushed coral with powered undergravel filters), actually works quite well, but is antiquated and neccesitates increased hardware in the tank itself.

In addition, to the biological benefits of a DSB the aquarium inhabitants seem to like the sand much more too! Especially any fish that burrows by nature, e.g. gobies, and the various critters that forage off the sea floor, e.g. crabs, shrimp, snails, etc.

Corax, All I am saying is not all system set-ups are neither ideal or practical for all situations. It is my contention, based on my experience alone, that a good amount of H2O changes, good water cirulation, a DSB, and a Biowheel, have all served me well for my small (10 gal) Q-tank. Therefore, if it has worked well for me I am inclined to share my experience. I agree, for a larger tank I would not use biowheels becuase, as you have inferred there is likely no need provided you have enough LR.

Happy Holidays. :)

P.S. I can't wait until I post a question surrounding best recommended filtration as I begin set-up on my new 125g following the holidays. The trouble will be sifting through all the advise and deciding which way to go. :eek:

[Corax]

Rip, it is still on the market cuz people keeping buying it based on what their LFS tells em. If you hadn't found out here, do you think your LFS woulda said "Hey, don't spend $10/bag for our crushed coral, it's not good for you tank AND you can get something cheaper at Home Depot"? Nope, it's a cash crop for em, just like all the chemical crap they try to push on ya.

Rudy, sounds like fun! When ya gonna start it up?

Onion, sometimes I wish I could just download your brain and burn myself a copy of it =) You always know the technical answer for whatever gibberish I'm trying to explain.

[OrionGirl]

Products are on the market because they sell, not because they are worthwhile. Look at Cycle and Ken dolls.

[Riptide]

I believe the fine white sand they were selling at my LFS was more expensive than the CC and nobody said anything to me when I decided to get the coral. I could be wrong about this, but the coral is the "cheap stuff" vs. the white sand (aragonite?) that everyone seems to use now.

I understand your point and your probably right. However, it's not like CC doesn't work or is going to destroy the tank. They used it for years and people still had nice looking tanks with the stuff. I don't have an UG filter going on it nor do I intend to... It will be vacuumed at least bi-weekly during the water changes.

I am going to be moving this summer and have plans to move to a different aquarium (probably at least an 80g). At that point I will consider changing over to the sand but for now I've put enough work into getting all of this going I really don't relish the thought of draining the whole thing out, stressing the chunk of LR I have, and then having to buy more substrate and refill the tank. Call me lazy, but I've done enough work over the last two weeks on this.

That said, I am only using about 1" of crushed coral right now. If it is acceptable to put another 2" of sand over the top of it I might be willing to do that since it wouldn't require the drain and scoop. Whaddya think?

[Sregnar35]

CC= biweekly cleaning, good chance for nitrate spiking, and low probability for anaerobic bacteria production

DSB= never needs cleaning, very low chance of nitrate problems when supplemented with a cleaning crew, great amount of room for anaerobic bacteria, much cheaper

both work, but if you are starting out, what would you do?

[Riptide]

Can I pour the sand over the top of the 1" of CC I have or is it going to *require* the drain and scoop? Is the white sand everyone seems to be using (ie, not "playbox sand") going to buffer the tank as well as the CC?

[Corax]

If you opt for Aragonite sand, not the "cheap stuff" from Home Depot, then yes, it will buffer your water.

There is no need to dain the tank. You simply scoop and chuck the CC and replace with sand about 25% weekly until you've replaced it all. Should take a 4 weeks if it goes smoothly, 6 if you see spikes of ammonia.

"They used it for years and people still had nice looking tanks with the stuff. "

Until fairly recently, asbestos was used to insulate homes and schools. In hindsight, was that a good idea? CC isn't nearly THAT bad, but there are much better ways to do it. The fact that those ways are both better and cheaper should make them a no brainer =) You are refering to what I like to think of as the "dark ages" of saltwater keeping. Dead coral skeletons, cruched coral substrate, very sterile and un-natural. The Berlin method is a more natural appraoch to keeping salties, and far more effective.

[Riptide]

OK... There aren't any fish in the aquarium right now so is there any harm in just replacing ALL of the crushed coral at once, returning the LR to the tank once the water settles for a few hours?

My only fish is stuck in QT with ich until after christmas... I am seriously considering just replacing the CC bed and adding some uncured live rock (about 40') and letting the tank run for another 2-3 weeks before I think about putting anything else in there.

See my PM. To recap, here is my plan if I decide to go through with this:

1) Pull my current 15' of CURED LR out and put it in a bucket w/power head or air stone.
2) Remove the CC by scooping it out. I will leave the water in there and not drain it.
3) Pour a full bed of aragonite sand in there (how many ' ?).
4) Turn the filters back up, let the water clear for a few hours.
5) After the water starts to clear (3 hours or so at least) I will put the 15' of cured rock back in and am also going to add 40' of uncured rock.
6) Run the aquarium for 2-3 weeks before I add my maroon clown back into the tank. This should allow time for the uncured rock to fully cure and also for the system to settle down.

Is this an OK plan?

[Corax]

OK... There aren't any fish in the aquarium right now so is there any harm in just replacing ALL of the crushed coral at once, returning the LR to the tank once the water settles for a few hours?

Don't bother removing the LR. The sand will settle, then you just turkey baster it off the rocks. Besides, if you jsut put in sand, then place rocks on top of the sand, your foundation won't be very stable. Put the rock in, then the sand around em.

My only fish is stuck in QT with ich until after christmas... I am seriously considering just replacing the CC bed and adding some uncured live rock (about 40') and letting the tank run for another 2-3 weeks before I think about putting anything else in there.

If you put uncured LR in with your cured LR, anything big enough to see and enjoy will probably die on the original liverock. Uncured LR is an extremely potent source of ammonia, and cured LR won't enjoy that environment. Yes, LR will help process that ammonia, but the cost will be the macro life on it. Also, 2-3 weeks is a bit low on the estimate. Curing LR can vary, but it TYPICALLY takes 4-6 weeks. I hate to keep bursting your bubble, but I hate when people leave these little tidbits out of advice. So I try to give ya the straight dirt..

[Riptide]

The cloudy water won't bother the chunk of cured LR I already have?

The LR at my dealer has been curing for about a week and a half already, hence the 2-3 week estimate. I may decide to wait until the LR at my dealer's tank has been through most of the curing process before adding it then if you think it'll kill my current cured LR.

Other than that, does the plan look OK to you? The way I read it I should nix #1,5, & 6. At least I don't have to lose all the water in the tank.

Modified plan:
1) Scoop out CC.
2) Pour the sand in. How many lbs. do I need? It's a 55.

A simple plan. I will wait until the LR @ my dealer's has been through at least 3-4 weeks of curing then before I add it. Hopefully the impact will be minimal then.

[Sregnar35]

The only thing I noticed is that you expect 3 hours for the sand to settle, it's probably gonna take about 5 to 7 days for your water to be 100% clear again, but it will eventually clear.

[Riptide]

As long as the cloudy water doesn't hurt the LR, no biggie then I guess... What do you all think of my modified plan? Simple enough... I'll forget adding more LR in there until it is done curing at my dealer.

[Sregnar35]

Sounds good to me, I just added 20# of cured LR to my tank, even though my nitrites are still around 1ppm, my ammonia is 0. From what I've been told, most of the rock will survive, but not all. I had a good deal I coudn't pass up, if you can wait for your lfs to cure their rock, wait til your tank comes to 0 nitrites and ammonia.

[llebcire]

Been there, done this.

Tank is now clear, need to update webpage, BUT, everytime you move things around it turns to milk.

I resorted to buying a Magnum H.O.T. 250 to clear things up.

Main (http://home.mchsi.com/~llebcire/)

DSB Conversion (http://home.mchsi.com/~llebcire/DSB.htm)

[Riptide]

The tank is at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite already. It's only been up for just under 3 weeks. We weren't testing for nitrite like we should've so we never even noticed it spike or not. Ammonia did come up and then back down however.

With as little as I have in that aquarium (only 15' of live rock, that's it) it doesn't surprise me that the spikes weren't real heavy. Ammonia never got over about .6 or so before it came back down.

It is very tempting to buy some real nice pieces of partially cured rock and let it finish in there. I understand that most of the stuff that might be killed on the current 15' of cured rock I already have in there will just grow back anyway.

By george, this is a really confusing thing. Corax and others clearly know what they are talking about. Yet others who also have experience have told me the exact opposite: keep the coral if you're not doing a reef. Who do you believe?

[Riptide]

llebcire, that diatom outbreak isn't to bad. Could be worse. I've seen a friend's tank literally taken over by hair algae. It was even growing off the sand on the bottom! Talk about nasty...

[llebcire]

Originally posted by Riptide
By george, this is a really confusing thing. Corax and others clearly know what they are talking about. Yet others who also have experience have told me the exact opposite: keep the coral if you're not doing a reef. Who do you believe?

I have yet to see any documented, scientific evidence that a deep sand bed is the way to go, or even has any real advantage over CC or even bare bottom.

I did it for asthetics, and it does look better.

As for the rock, I may have damaged/killed/smothered life on mine due to the conversion. It was a mess from Sunday morning, 11 a.m., until Wednesday evening/Thursday morning. Keep in mind that I added the Magnum Wednesday night and let it run for 24 hours. It remained a mess for so long as after I put the sand in, I couldn't see anything in order to landscape, so I had to stir it up 2 more times.

[llebcire]

More info about DSB's and the like...

http://www.marineland.com/seascope/ss2003_issue2.pdf


Which is why I'll use a DSB, skimmer, wet/dry, live rock, fuge, and the Magnum as needed. :D

[Riptide]

Very provocative that pdf file is...

Seems to say, and I haven't examined it fully, that the key to success is good lighting, lots of live rock, and organic carbon removal.

They go on to say that bio-wheels and the like may be a plus, but they aren't the primary concern. The aforementioned are the primary concerns. Further, they found no increased nitrate in their test system with the bio-wheels.

Again, who to believe right? ;)

Some quotes from that file:
"While replication is needed in future tests,
the results of this experiment show that minireef
aquaria with dedicated biological filters do
not exhibit higher nitrate-nitrogen
concentrations when compared to other types
of filtration methods."

"The most often asked question, in terms of
setting-up a mini-reef aquarium, is what
filtration system should one use? The results of
this test show that the filter system most likely
plays a secondary role. To be successful, over
the long term, one needs a large amount of live
rock, a good lighting system, and an organic
carbon removal system. Having a dedicated
biological filter may be an added plus but it is
certainly not a detriment to the goal of settingup
and maintaining a healthy mini-reef
aquarium."

[llebcire]

True. But, I tend to belive things like this more than what I hear on forums. No offense to those who mention it here, but there doesn't seem to be an increase in Nitrates with a wet/dry system, which is why I'm keeping it.

Granted, this is only one test, but it is a documented test in a controlled environment, so I believe it has merit.

Just my thoughts...

[llebcire]

Looks like you edited during my reply! :D

[Corax]

Originally posted by llebcire


I have yet to see any documented, scientific evidence that a deep sand bed is the way to go, or even has any real advantage over CC or even bare bottom.

Then clearly you don't read much. Anyone of any importance in this industry will tell you that a DSB and LR are the way to go. I wonder if FISH WHISPERER might be reading this thread? Oh Monty, you out there big man??? I wish he'd chime in and throw down his 2 cents on this.

As for the pdf from Marineland, well just color me shocked that they said a Biowheel, which they just happen to sell, would be a good thing for your tank. I think anyone gullible enough to take that "study" at face value deserves to be parted from his $ ;)

[llebcire]

Originally posted by Corax


Then clearly you don't read much. Anyone of any importance in this industry will tell you that a DSB and LR are the way to go. I wonder if FISH WHISPERER might be reading this thread? Oh Monty, you out there big man??? I wish he'd chime in and throw down his 2 cents on this.



That's all good and well...but...

I am always looking for information, and this is the only thing that I've seen in print (so-to-speak) as of late. I too have heard an abundance of people from this and other forums claim that both ways are appropriate, (i.e. wet/dry vs. DSB/LR; DSB vs. CC, etc.), so I have a tendency to search for documented case studies such as the afore mentioned.

If anyone has a link or publicaton that has done a similar study, then please point me to it!

Thanks!

[Sregnar35]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.htm

Not a DSB vs. CC article, but a detailed description of how a dsb helps aquariums, great read.

[llebcire]

For the record, I do want to state that I believe that a sandbed is beneficial to an aquarium, although I tend to believe that CC may be as effective.

I am not ready to dump my wet/dry though.

[Riptide]

Originally posted by Corax
As for the pdf from Marineland, well just color me shocked that they said a Biowheel, which they just happen to sell, would be a good thing for your tank. I think anyone gullible enough to take that "study" at face value deserves to be parted from his $ ;)
I would be careful about dismissing things out of hand like that just because of the source. Attack the material instead. Find out what they did wrong according to the details of the experiment and explain it.

Similarly, I don't necessarily dismiss everything out of hand I read in the LA times just because it's a liberal slanted newspaper. I read the article with a critical eye and then make a decision on whether it's tripe or not.

I don't deny that bias here is possible, even probable. That doesn't necessarily mean that the experiment was rigged or flawed, however. :)

[FISH WHISPERER]

This may be way too late, but I was "perusing" and came across this. ;)

I'm in a crunch to catch some shut-eye, but wanted to briefly chime in as to CC being "as effective." Crushed coral is not as effective, given the practical usage of it as a substrate. This is because there is simply too much aerobic bacteria churning out nitrates in the upper levels of the CC. In other words, the crud collects in the upper levels of the CC where there is oxygenated water, and thus there is not a complete breakdown of the nitrates into gas. Rather, the crud (simply stated) just decays and we have what is known as a "nitrate factory."

We have seen that with sand this is not the case. This is for the very simple reason of granule size. It is not that "crushed coral is bad," it is that the diameter of the average granule is WAY larger than that of sand, and so we don't have the "compacting" ratio with CC that we do with sand. We need anaerobic bacteria to break the nitrates into a gas. We get this anaerobic bacteria readily with a sandbed, but again, it's simply not practical with crushed coral. A good friend, Rob Toonen achieved a "balance" (by this, I mean a good biological filtration setup) but I believe it was with a depth of 22 INCHES of crushed coral. :eek: This is what I mean by "not practical." And this does not mean that if we simply had a 22" CC substrate it would "work." The crud (waste) needs to get drawn down into the anaerobic layers to get processed. If we don't have anything to accomplish that, again - we'd just have crud being churned into nitrates and released into the water column. The decay must be processed by anaerobic bacteria to transform into a nitrate gas wherein the ultimate "by-product" can be released via the gaseous exchange at the surface of the tank.

When this doesn't happen, we have one major nitrate factory. There are precious few people around who will remember me "trying" to make the crushed coral substrate work... I was applying the whole "grain-size-ratio" concept - but it just wasn't working. When I was jawing about this with Rob at one of the marine conferences out here he told me about the 22" substrate that was "successful." Again, how practical is THAT for most of us?

Anyway, I tried for about a year and a half when sandbeds were leading the cutting edge into biological filtration, and I no doubt marked some of the highest nitrate readings possible. :D Indeed, it was often joked that there were no test kits to MEASURE my nitrates, as I was always rapidly off the charts. Dale will remember!! :D This was not bad, though, because it helped lend some "real-time" credence to the issues of nitrates being "bad" for our tanks. There's nothing like actual experience to answer that question, and I never lost a fish! But nitrates are usually an indication that most corals/inverts will not fare well in such a system. I can not attest with any credibility on this issue, because my lighting was no doubt insufficient - and so I couldn't isolate any one cause as culprit for my "non-coral" environment at the time. ;)

Anyway, we made the switch to Carib Sea's "Special Grade" reef sand... As Ron Shimek has aptly called it... wonder grunge A pretty big "swap" and nitrates were screaming back in no time. That was it... That was the time for REAL SAND!!!! ;) And so it was that with no other change than a sandbed swap, the crazy nitrate problem was put to rest. Sure, the swap can be a pain, but I did an article which has helped a few folks out with the whole process - and a step-by-step makes it far less painful. ;) It was a real learning experience, but hopefully I helped address the issue of a crushed coral substrate being as effective.

In summation, there are many ways to deal with nitrates, but there's no doubt that the most convenient way is to do so naturally, without the need/maintenance of mechanical filtration. What other filter allows us to be so "hands-off"? Most nitrate-processing mechanical filters have mediums which must be maintained/cleaned/changed. Sandbeds can go go go!!! :D There were a few reports of a "sandbed exodus" because a few people experienced disasters in their tanks. I can tell you, and I'm sure anyone with a degree of self-ponderance can concur, that if sandbeds were "time-bombs" then they'd be time-bombs for everyone. We've had sandbeds processing nutrients ranging from heavy bioloads to minimal.. and there are many on record spanning well over a decade - some have reached 22 years!!!

Anyway, I was probably one of the last of the "old school" to convert to sandbeds from a mantra of "crushed coral," and I dare say I'll be one of the staunchest supporters, having definitely learned the hard way!!!! But it was a great learning experience.... Hopefully I passed some on!!! Cheers, and hi to all... (been a while, huh? :D )

[OrionGirl]

Good to see you are still around, Monty!

[redpaulhus]

Another reason most LFS sell lots of CC -- they use lots of CC.

In the display tanks its often not feasable to setup a DSB - so we have CC. Every week I take out all of the CC from an entire row of tanks, and soak it in bleach for a week.
I then take de-clorinated CC (pulled out of a tank last week) and add them to the tanks that are now substrate less.

I THEN go thru and manually scrub the CC in all the other tanks (pick up handful of CC, grind in hand to rub off algae, repeat ad nauseum) until it looks nice and clean. Not to mention vac vac vac...
Of course customers come in and constantly compliment us\me on the tanks (we're part of a chain, and one of the few stores that looks good I guess).

Funniest part -- we don't even sell the CC we use (coarse stuff) - we sell small bags of CC and sand. Customers get mad at me when i recommend sand rather than CC becuase they want what we use !!

[cybball]

I'm moving in 1 1/2 weeks. I'm using CC now and am slowly switching my tank from Fish Only to LR and Corals. My lighting will be upgraded, but thought I would change my CC to DSB. I've heard the Home Depot suggestion. If going that route, is the DSB going to be the brown sand, or do they sell the nice white stuff? I like the look of the white stuff they use in my local shops. When I switch, can I change over all of it at once, or will that really screw up the balance of the tank?

[Dale W.]

Monty, You just kill me :D

"This may be way too late, but I was "perusing" and came across this.

I'm in a crunch to catch some shut-eye, but wanted to briefly chime in as to CC being "as effective." "

Yah, pretty brief.

It is good to see you back here bud. I owe you an e-mail and I will get that off to you soon. Benn really swamped lately.

Keep on smiling bud and we all love your brief comments here on the boards :dance

[as40]

cybball,

I'm here in southern Hell, ur, I mean, California, and I just recently set my tank up with a DSB. I ended up getting a 50 pound bag from Lowes (same thing as Home Depot) of play sand, which looked very white and nice when it was dry. I used 45 pounds of it at the bottom of my tank, and on top layered a thicker amount of 80 pounds of aragonite "live" sand from the LFS. Definately, the aragonite sand was more costly, but it supposedly buffers the water better and looks much nicer. The playsand turned from white to grey in my tank once it was wet, so keep that in mind. The aragonite stayed white. So if you can find cheap aragonite sand, I'd stick with that.

[cybball]

My local shop told me that they use a combo of CC and sand. They said to mix it around 1/2 and 1/2. I really wanted to go with sand, but don't want to screw up my tank by throwing out all the CC for new sand. Just a little confused. I hear different things from everyone I talk to. I like the nice white of the sand and hear it's better for the tank in the long run. What would happen with mixing 1/2 and 1/2?

[FISH WHISPERER]

The most sought-after benefit of a DSB is the formation of anaerobic bacterium to convert nitrates to a gas, whereupon they are released from the tank is part of the gaseous surface-exchange. In simple terms, the sandbed processes nitrates, and is only efficient at doing so if there's no oxygen where this "conversion" takes place. By using crushed coral, even with the sand, you create an environment where there's enough room for water to "seep" in/around - and with that water comes oxygen. That's because the granule size of the crushed coral is so much larger than that of sand, and you don't achieve the "compact" layering that you do with just sand. HTH :)

[Marvin]

Question is for AS40.

Did you start off with the sand from lowes or move from CC to DSB?

I currently have CC but wonder if i should make the move.

Also, do you have pics of your tank? I would love to see how it came out.

[Apone]

I think one issue between the DSB/live rock people and the CC/

wetdry filter people is that there is a lot more to this issue

than just which substrate is better.....

For those who use a DSB and LR, they rely on the anerobic

bacteria living in both the sand and LR to remove nitrate. Now

just dumping play sand into your tank does not mean this will

work. THere are a few assumed standards when someone recommends

the use of a DSB:

1.You have a healthy supply of invertebrates living in your DSB

to "stir" it up, ensuring a healthy DSB. During water changes,

you do not manually stir up a DSB like you would a CC bed. Doing

so disrupts the anaerobic processes and negates the effects fo

the DSB.

2. You have a large amount of LR to supply the invertebrates

needed and break up wastes , or you add invertebrates manually

yourself.

3. You have a Q tank and you do not medicate your display tank

when there is ICH or other parasite infections present. THis is

because copper and other similar medications will kill

invertbrates, the same critters that a DSB needs.

So as you can see, having a DSB requires a few other steps, that

not all aquarists want to go through. Not everyone decides to

include invertebrates and LR in their tank and not all aquarists

maintain a separate Q tank - they medicate their display tank

when needed.

Now I am not saying one way is good or bad, I am only trying to

point out that there is more to this debate than just DSB vs CC.

When I frst started I ran into the same issues that other people

on this subject had....Which opinion do I go with? Even if you

read Fenner's book, he does not dismiss the use of CC with a wet

dry filter and dead coral skeletons. In fact, he has included

this type of tank in much detai. Granted he states that there are

better methods such as LR and DSB, but he does not fully discount

other filter types.

[FISH WHISPERER]

Hi,

Actually, that's all quite a few people have done. ;) Just dump in the sand, seed with whatever comes in on the live rock (plus the purchase of some crabs - a common item in either setup). Our trigger tank had only two pieces of rock - only for shelter, not anaerobic bacteria which live rock actually does precious little to afford due to the flow of oxygenated water in/around the rock. There are also tanks with no live rock. Indeed, it's more than safe to say that live rock is not necessary for a sandbed to provide all the biological filtration - this is because sufficient folks have tanks with no live rock to affirm this.

Live rock has plenty of benefits/advantages, but being "necessary" for the success of a sandbed is definitely not true.

And as an aside, one doesn't actually need any sand-stirrers if one gently "mixes up" the sandbed in various portions at a time. There are all sorts of ways to do thigns successfully, and that's not to say crushed coral can't be a successful method. But it's a heckuva lot more work than a DSB if ya ask me! :)

[Corax]

<hijack>
Monty! LTNS dooder =) How'd that cross country tour turn out?
</hijack>

[FISH WHISPERER]

Corax: Don't want to entirely hijack the thread... But I liked Kansas so much that I finally achieved my dream of self-exile and escaped from Kalifornia. I know live in Ellsworth, KS - but am temporarily back in Kalifornia fighting for custody of my son... Send me an email if ya want details, otherwise just smile and wish me well! :D :D

Let me tie this back into the thread... I escaped the large granulation of the Crushed California during a "citizen change" (like a water change) ;) and am grateful that I was not in a more compacted anaerobic area (as are so many people) to be simply consumed by bacteria and live the rest of my life out as a gas, waiting for my entrance to the Pearly Gates at the appropriate "surface soul exchange." :D :D

Okay, so that might be a stretch... But at least I tied in some appropriate words! :D

[Apone]

Thanks for responding Fish Whisperer...

I guess I am really confused about the DSB method. I am really glad to hear that you can remove a CC bed and replace with sand...especially without adding a large amount, or even any, LR to seed it.

I am also really glad to hear that you do not necessarily need inverts that live within the DSB to stir it up.....I had always thought that once the DSB was in place it was considered very bad to manually stir it up.

I guess now that I think about it more, it does make more sense. I have a CC bed in my FO tank, with no LR. My tank has no Ammonia or nitrite, but does have Nitrate. Like others with CC beds, I am constantly fighting the detritus build up on top of my CC bed. With the detritus build up, I grow green cyano algea on an almost daily basis.

Now from what I have read in this thread, I have this problem for two reasons:

1. the detritus is able to settle into my CC. Even with vigorous water circulation, the detritus still accumulates and breaks down within my CC. THis breakdown feeds my micro algea.

2. becasue of the large CC granual size, aerated water is constantly moving through , which does not allow for the anerobic bacteria to grow, which results in high nitrates.

So, looks like a good start for me will be to remvoe my CC and repalce it with sand. The sand does not need to be "live" because I am aiming for the growth of anaerobic bacteria first and foremost to reduce my nitrates. Also with the sand in place, it will form a "shield", trapping most detritus on top, which will be easily removed by crabs and brisk water circulation via the filters.

Can you please let me know if this makes sense to you!

[FISH WHISPERER]

Hi,

First, I'm going to speak in extremely non-scientific terms. It makes the same point and runs less a chance of confusion - Understanding is the goal here, not impressive language! ;)

So, in simple terms: I'd like to sort of establish two types of detritus, probably not "technically" correct, but at least understandable from where I see your concern.

Lets call the first detritus "uneaten food". Now, be it a CC bed, or DSB, this always has a chance to get eaten by attentive crabs, although it is certainly logical that if it is not worked down into a CC bed it is easier to get eaten by not only crabs, but also fish. So, your reasoning is indeed correct. It is easier for food to get eaten in a "second pass" if it is laying out in the open, or sitting in a ledge of rock. The deeper it gets into the CC, the greater the chance of it eroding into what is the second type of "detritus."

We'll call that decayed food and fish poop. ;) This is the stuff that hasn't made it into the food chain, or in fact has made it all the way through the food chain. ;) Let's consider this to be the group that will "turn into nitrates." This will be what we know as the last stage of "ammonia-nitrite-nitrate".

You are again correct in that a DSB has been proven far more efficient at breaking this nitrate down into a nitrate gas. The anaerbic layers of a DSB are much closer to the surface of the detritus, and it does what we simpletons like to refer as "sucking down" the detritus into this no-oxygen layer to convert it to the nitrate gas.

SO, do I suggest swapping out a CC bed in favor of sand? I certainly do recommend to all new tanks, and I'm even for swapping it out of established tanks - for no other reason than ease of maintenance. I'm not saying "one method is better than the other," although I won't be totally spineless. ;) I'll say one is certainly easier than the other! :D I also believe it establishes a very stable ecosystem, able to handle pretty impressive decay without a rise in nitrates.

I'm going to "paste" an article I wrote. This was in response to a similar discussion in which someone suggested I "write out a method" of what I was talking about - "stirring" the sandbed. Here she goes!

********************************

Hi all:

I was mentioning a “worry-fix” in an online thread about sandbeds. The thread voiced concern about the “buildup” of toxic gases within the sandbed. Whether the concern is valid or not is not what this is about. This is about NOT worrying whether you will have a buildup of gases in your own tank.

To accomplish? Well, I prefer a 3/4" tube (the best types are the clear ones which can often be found right in the fish department of a big lfs to slide over fluorescent lights tubes). Think of it as a type of "precision" drilling method. You would first insert the tube down through the water and straight to the bottom of the sandbed - ALL the way to the bottom of the tank. Then, the smallest diameter rod or dowel can be inserted through the tube. You can then rotate the smaller dowel inserted through the large diameter tube and poke/prod until you've sufficiently "stirred up" that portion of the sandbed into which the larger tube has been inserted. A rigid hollow tube can even be used in the larger tube, and you could lightly blow through it or use a small air pump to aerate that portion of the sandbed into which you’ve inserted the larger tube.

This keeps the slurry confined to an exacting diameter of the sandbed - with absolutely no detrimental effects to the rest of the sandbed/tank. It accomplishes complete "stirring/mixing" of just that portion of the sandbed you are stirring. Of course, the amount of the sandbed that you work on should be proportional to the surface area of the sandbed itself. In other words, you wouldn't "drill" any more than 10% of the surface area at any one "operation" just to be safe. I always like to err on the side of caution, so perhaps a person could stir up the complete sandbed with no problems. That's not what this procedure is for, however. It is designed for that person who is concerned with the so-called "buildup" of gases in their sandbed and who doesn't want to fret about it. I personally don't lay any belief to a sandbed "self-destructing" if it is not stirred. I have not experienced it, and I don't believe my "drilling" process is a mandatory part of any maintenance procedure. I must allow such a disclaimer! LOL. It is, however, a process for those who might be concerned, or who are experiencing any sort of "crusting" on the surface of their sandbed. Some folks want a worry-free "fix" to some of the "dire warnings" mentioned by the "sandbed doomsayers" lol!! This would be just the procedure to "relieve" a sandbed of such death-threats. Again, I don't believe everyone should rush out and do this, and am not suggesting that anyone NEEDS to do this for a healthy sandbed. This is just a procedure to counter any worries about insufficient gas expense in a DSB (deep sandbed).

NOTE: This basically is a procedures which "aerates" the sandbed, and as we need our anoxic areas with no oxygen to process nitrates, one shouldn't go about "drilling" their whole sandbed in any sort of frenzy. This is why I again stress that 10% poses absolutely zero problem to the functioning of the sandbed and the nitrates it processes. So, the question might be: How OFTEN can I do this? Well, again I like to be absolutely sure, and 10% rotated once a month through the sandbed is more than safe.

Again, this might be an absolutely unnecessary "fix" to a problem that may not even exist. Some folks, however, do want some sort of "insurance" against all the dire warnings a few folks have mentioned about this so-called "death" of a DSB. This clearly “disrupts” any buildup without disrupting any majority of the functioning sandbed.

**************************************

I think the sandbed swap is outlined here in the archives somewhere, but it is a method which really holds your hand through the process. I encourage you to NOT take any shortcuts. We've done this a lot, and even when we think we are "experienced enough" to not keep a printout at hand... we've invariably screwed up! :eek:

So, even if you think your sandbed might be "building up" too much "detritus" because you don't have enough critters, you can always "maintain" it ever now and then with the stirring method outlined above. I'd like to again stress that I am not establishing any sort of "timeline" or "required maintenance" for a DSB. ;) The above just puts to rest any QUESTIONS of it building up. A lot of folks were worried that their sandbed might be building up. There were things like "Old Tank Syndrome" being tossed about. Well, by the above stirring, you can logically see that there is no possibility of a sandbed "building up" and getting ready to "destroy" your tank. ;)

As for seeding it, I covered that in the Sandbed Swap article. Again, I don't make claims as to "necessity" just that it does fulfill that niche. ;) I've seeded tanks with nothing but live rock and had no problems. I've also added diverse sand from other tanks to see if I got "more diverse." Not to my naked eye, although I'm sure it's one of those things that could "only help."

Well, hope this helps out a bit. :)

[Corax]

Sounds about right to me, though I would add some Nassarius or Cerith snails (depending on your stocking of course) to stir the sand bed to avoid gas pockets. When you add the sand, put down about 1/2" first, then put your rocks in and make sure they are stable. Then put the rest of the sand around them.. Sand can settle, and putting rocks right on top can lead to toppling.

Monty, custody? That doesn't sound right at all =( Sounds lilke I've missed a chapter.. Drop me a PM if you feel like sharing it with an old bird =)

[Apone]

Thank you very much for repsonding guys.
This has been one of the most helpful and informative threads I have read in a long time.

[Apone]

Here is a link to Fish Whisper's San Bed Swap (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23909&highlight=swap) post which I found extremely helpful!

[as40]

Marvin,
Sorry for the late response. Haven't been on here as much this week; been busy. I started out with sand, no CC. I bought the live sand from the LFS and the playsand from Lowes, and put them both in at the same time. The playsand on bottom (forming a grey level) and the live sand (aragonite) on top (forming the nice white level). After the sand was in, filled the tank with R/O water, ran it about a week until my LR came in through the mail, then added that it. Guess from reading this post I made an error in adding the rock after the sand for stability purposes, however, I don't have it stacked higher than half the height of the tank, and I was careful in how I placed it so that pieces can't really "fall" off of one another. Kinda like building with Lego. Oh well, too late now. I've been in the process of cycling the tank now. Got control of the ammonia through frequent large water changes, nitrates are still a b****. Just waiting it out now. Got a couple of turbo snails in there, to try and combat the brown algea that is now beginning to grow on everything. Will just wait that out too. Hopefully soon my LR will jumpstart and grow some beautiful things. Anyway, as for pics, I had a friend with a digital camera come over and take some, I'm just waiting on him to send them to me so I can post them. :D