Thinking about trying the DIY Yeast Co2 Injection Again but...

[plantass28]

I was thinking of trying to do the Diy Co2 Injection again, however one problem I had in the past was knowing how much crush coral to ad to offset the Co2's Drop on the PH. I never quite had the time to really fiddle with guessing. Is there a formula now for how much Crushed coral to ad? Thanks for any answers!

[djlen]

What is the size of your tank and what is your kH?

Len

[plantass28]

Well since I have just got back into the hobby, unfortunately I havent been able to get a kh or gh test kit so I cant answer that question. The Tank is 29 gallon.

Thanks for any help.

[djlen]

You may not need to buffer your water. Without knowing your kH, adding CO2 can be dangerous since you have to know your kH/pH ratio to compute CO2 absorption. And knowing the stability of your water is a primary factor in using CO2.
In general, a 29 gal. tank can easily handle a bottle of DIY CO2, but I would pick up a kH test kit before injecting. A kH of 3.0 - 3.5 is generally a safe area to be in.

Len

[plantass28]

Yeah Im well aware of the dangers of Co2, I am just getting prepared to use it. So getting as much info as possible. I thought I saw someone post a comment on here about using 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, of crushed coral to offset the huge plummit the Co2 would cause in PH.

[emoore]

I think you really want to know your kH. It will tell you if you have to buffer your water with coral. My kH is 10 so adding CO2 does not cause my pH to plummet (it goes from 7.4 to 7.1).

[plantass28]

Originally posted by emoore
I think you really want to know your kH. It will tell you if you have to buffer your water with coral. My kH is 10 so adding CO2 does not cause my pH to plummet (it goes from 7.4 to 7.1).

Yeah I am not going to add the Co2 till I find out what the KH is. Unfortunately I have to require some test kits, but right this minute money is tight. I am just getting info on the Co2 and if there was a formula for crushed coral, looks like it may not even be nessacery, which is great.

[plantass28]

Okay thanks for being patient, I now have the KH it appears to be 5. I can also get you the GH. Unfortunately the ph kit I bought was for Salt so I have to go back and trade for a fresh kit. Also the KH test was done with a Tetra laborette test kit. Thanks.

[plantass28]

Returned the Salt PH kit for the Fresh, it appears the ph is at 7.5, Thanks for any and all help.

[as40]

I too was thinking of fiddling with co2, only I don't have a KH testing kit, and I've heard they're kind of expensive. How much did you pay for yours, if I may ask, plantass28?

[djlen]

kH kits are not all that expensive. I've been using the Tetra Test kit and find it relatively accurate.
With the numbers you give, you should have no problem with injecting CO2, especially DIY which is generally not as potent as compressed CO2. Much of the potency depends on the type of yeast used, as well as the amount per 2 liter bottle.
Crushed coral is notoriously slow acting. You will not see much reaction to it with regard to kH, for probably a week or so.
For a 29 gallon tank, one tsp. sounds about right. Just keep an eye on your kH and adjust the amount from there.
But if your kH is 5 it is unnecessary to add the coral, IMO.

Len

[plantass28]

DJLEN,

Thanks for the info, very helpful!!!

AS40,

I bought the Tetra Brand KH Test Kit which normally are 7.99, but they had it for 50% off at my local fish store, because they are not popular sellers with the superficial, goofball, ghetto fabulous, Oscar buying, betta fish buying to fight another betta fish type of people (I dont think they even test most of them) that shop at my fish store.

[plantass28]

DJLEN,

I was wondering what is the best sugar/yeast brand to use for this? I am going to be running it out of a 2 liter bottle, you wouldnt happen to have the link to the formula would you, it has been a long time since I have used DIY Co2. Also I was planning on running flexible tubing from the 2 liter bottle up into the aquarium where it would be diffused by a hagen airstone. Is this also okay/or the best method? Thanks for your help!

[djlen]

Here's a link I just sent somebody else:

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/aquatic/default.asp

Pretty decent explanation on how to set it up. Also a recipe for mixing the stuff up. The only argument I have with this article is that she says it lasts "up to 4 weeks". My yeast is pretty wimpy, but I never even came close to 4 weeks on a bottle of CO2. One of the most important factors when you are injecting CO2 is to try to maintain a continuous pH. This insures that you
have the required rate of absorption. As the CO2 conks out, the pH rises. This can be nerve-wracking when you consider the stress it can produce in fish. I remedied this problem, to some degree by using two bottles and alternating changing one of them each week.
In the case of my 55s, when I was running 4-2liter bottles on each I would change two of them on each tank weekly.
As to your air-stone idea. It will work, but it is not the best way to inject. She uses a HOB filter in the article. You can also pick up a power head at Big Al's for less than $15 that will do a great job for you.

Len

[plantass28]

DJlen,

First thanks for your continued help. I have a Hang on Filter, its one of those Tetratech Filters, where do I run the line on the filter?

Also when you say you have another bottle waiting to go, is it pre-mixed and capped and then when your ready, you just plug it in? So you run Co2 continuosly and your ph seems to stay relatively level? How often do you do water changes and at what percentage? Do you Adjust the ph of the change water to match the ph in the tank? Thanks.

[plantass28]

DJLEN,

Lol! I should have looked at the article before asking one of my questions. I see you have to run the line into the pump inlet. I see this will also make my filter very noisy too unfortunately. :( Oh well guess you have to give a little to get something for nothing.

Also what yeast sugar brand do you use? I noticed in a previous post that you mentioned that results very with dif. Yeast/sugar blends.

[djlen]

After using the 2liter bottle for a while you will get a feel for how long it will maintain itself before losing it's potency by monitoring your pH. Let's say it goes for 12 days and then you start to see a rise in pH. Don't wait for a further drop....mix up another bottle and replace the old one to try and maintain the desired pH. Don't make up a fresh bottle more than an hour or two ahead of time and let it sit. You risk explosion or a possible overflow when you uncap it.
This process can also work when daisy chaining 2 or 3 bottles. You see a rise in pH.....replace a bottle......see a rise.....replace another bottle. Just keep track of which ones you've replaced in order to keep the system fresh.
I change water EVERY sat. or sun. I change approx. 33-50% of each tank and don't mess with the pH going into the tank. Like I've said many times; clean water is everything....keep it clean and the fish will adjust to minor pH changes. Test your water before water change and again right afterward. IME, there should be practically no fluctuation in pH. I keep my tanks at 6.4 and the tap water comes out at 7.4. I see very little fluctuation within the tank after water change and only good reaction from the fish to the water-changes.
Your HOB will gas off a bunch of CO2, but it will also break up the gas and disperse it to some degree. Try to keep the flow of the HOB at a minimal level to lessen surface agitation. Also, try to keep the tank's water level as high as possible, again to lessen the agitation of the return water.
Noise level is in the eye of the beholder. Never bothered me much. You will hear the impeller smashing up the bubbles very faintly. This was always a good sound to me. Also, I have not experienced any damage to any of my AquaClears in all the time I used them, from CO2 injection. I use pressurized now, and different filters, but if I ever need the AC's again they will run fine for me.
I have always used Fleishmann's yeast from the supermarket. Some people use Champagne Yeast and claim better results. I think the yeast I use is not as potent because of age more than anything else. Buy small quantities of yeast to keep it fresh.

Len

[plantass28]

Very detailed Reply, thanks very much for your Reply DJ, Invaluable!

[plantass28]

Hey DJLEN,

I was also wondering, do you keep the co2 flowing with the diy co2 24/7?

[djlen]

Yes.....24/7.
With DIY DO2 you are better off not messing with connecting and disconnecting. Once you get a decent flow, let it go.
If, by some small chance you feel like you're getting too much saturation at night and you have a HOB filter, just adjust it to a higher flow rate at night and it will gas off some of the extra CO2.
If you can't control the flow rate of the filter you can insert an air-stone to gas off excess CO2.
Personally, I think that messing around with it is just looking for trouble. In all of my tanks, the increase in CO2ppm is so small that I'd never start adjusting at night and playing with the pH. That would be tougher on the fish, atleast in my case, than trying to adjust for a night-time rise in ppm.

Len

[plantass28]

DJLEN,

Thanks again, the only reason I am worried is that I have 4 whimpy Emprorer Tetra's and a spotted puffer which currently have ich/velvet despite being quarantined for 4 weeks before going into the display. They currently are in a serperate 15 gallon being treated with quick cure and a antibiotic.

[DIYMatt]

I currently use DIY CO2 on two tanks and run an airstone in those tanks for about 4-5 hours soon after the lights go out to gas off some of the CO2 in the tank and add oxygen. But, I am pumping a lot of CO2(2+ bubbles per second) in to the tank. One morning I saw the fish breathing at the surface and two dead Amano shrimp plus a really low ph. I agree with Len that trying to stop the flow of CO2 at night or adjusting will probably lead to trouble. Also, you can put a very small air pump on a cheap timer and then it is automatic, which is always nice. To me it is always better safe than sorry. DIY CO2 can possibly be quite variable, especially using grocery store yeast- IME. Seeing those fish laboring at the top of the tank was too much for me.

BTW- Doesn't a traditional spotted puffer prefer brackish water?

[plantass28]

Originally posted by DIYMatt
I currently use DIY CO2 on two tanks and run an airstone in those tanks for about 4-5 hours soon after the lights go out to gas off some of the CO2 in the tank and add oxygen. But, I am pumping a lot of CO2(2+ bubbles per second) in to the tank. One morning I saw the fish breathing at the surface and two dead Amano shrimp plus a really low ph. I agree with Len that trying to stop the flow of CO2 at night or adjusting will probably lead to trouble. Also, you can put a very small air pump on a cheap timer and then it is automatic, which is always nice. To me it is always better safe than sorry. DIY CO2 can possibly be quite variable, especially using grocery store yeast- IME. Seeing those fish laboring at the top of the tank was too much for me.

BTW- Doesn't a traditional spotted puffer prefer brackish water?

Thanks for the advice. Well I have heard that they find them in straight freshwater too. Anyway the emporers have problems too, so I am sure that is not the issue here.

[plantass28]

Okay one more question,

When I tried the DIY C02 before it was with a 21 oz bottle on a 5 gallon Amazon themed plant tank that sat on a desk. The tubing that fed the co2 to the aquarium was maybe 1 foot.

Now I am trying it again on my 29 gallon.

So I started off using some questionable yeast in our fridge. The first batch seemed to do nothing. The next, I guess I filled it too full because I got a white mess in my tank. (Did a good 30% water change, not to worry.) The third I am now trying is using some fresh store bought Fleishmans yeast. It has been connected to the tank for a few hours now and does not appear to be bubbling. I thought maybe it just didnt have enough oomph to get up to the tank, so I shortened the tubing and stuck the bottle on top of the canopy so that now it only has to go about 1.5 feet to get to my tetratec hob filter. Still it does not seem to be moving. When I squeeze the bottle gently I get a great push of bubbles, but it wont do it on its own. As I mentioned before its been a few hours and its not really getting there.

Should I give it more time?

Seems like the one on my 5 gallon started right away but that was like 4 years ago and I only did it once so I could have forgotten that it took some time to build up.

Thanks for any replys.

[anonapersona]

Possible leaks. Screw that cap on tighter. Does the cap have a good gasket init, most soda bottles do, some juice bottles do some do not.

Submerge the bottle under water, or what I do is skip that and just glob on some Liquid Nails where the tubing connects to the bottle. works even while the unit is under some pressure.

Often handling the bottles makes for small leaks -- which is why the Hagen is so great for small systems, no leaks. Every few months I pull on the bottles by accident and have to re glue the line with Liquid Nails.

Also, temp sensitive, put bottle on top of lights for gentle warming. You should see tiny bubbles moving thru the liquid.

[plantass28]

I hotglued the tubing to the cap, so I believe there are no leaks.

I will have to try submerging the bottle.

I saw that hagen system and thought it was okay, didnt like the reactor too much, huge footprint. Plus $30 is a bit much for something you can make your self for free.

I made sure the water was luke warm.

This morning the lights were off so it was hard to see if it was working, I will check again this afternoon.

[djlen]

Take a small cup....put 1/4 tsp. of sugar into it and 1/4 tsp. of yeast as well. Add enough(tepid) water(maybe and inch) to mix the two. Take a spoon and stir it vigorously for a min. or two. Set it aside
Take a 2 liter bottle(clean). Into it pour 2 cups of pure sugar.
If you have soft water, add 1/4 tsp. of baking soda. Fill to 3/4 full, again with tepid water, and shake to dissolve the sugar. Add 1/4 tsp. of yeast to the bottle, cap it, and shake the h*ll out of it checking to make sure all the sugar is dissolved. Leave the cap on and set it down and wait for 15 mins. The reason for the wait is that the original cup of sugar you made up should sit for 15 mins. or so. This is not rocket science and the times don't have to be exact.
After 15 mins. pour the small cup of "starter" yeast and sugar into the 2 liter bottle. I mix my "starter" up in a measuring cup to make it easier to pour into the bottle.
This should leave you with a couple of inches of space between the solution and the top of the bottle. Add some more tepid water to the bottle to fill to within about 1 1/2" of the top. Cap it and set it down for 1/2 hr. or so to "cook". If you've done it this way, when you put it on the tank it will start to bubble within 1/2 hr. Initially you should see, within 1hr., a bubble every 2 - 5 secs. It will increase as time goes on and last for anywhere from 1 week to 10 days fairly consistently.
If you want to maintain pH you need to watch that bubble rate and re-make a fresh solution as needed. Don't let it fall off too much. It's much easier to maintain with two bottles by replacing one of them every 7 - 10 days.
Tepid water is defined, I think as body temp. I read somewhere that optimum temp is 109°. To me, it's ridiculous to go to that extreme. The bottle will eventually go to room temp anyway and still perform for you. Some people put it in a small tub of water with a heater in it to help it along. I've never done this and get good results at room temp.
If you have good yeast, and follow the above fairly closely and don't have any leaks, I guarantee you success with this recipe.

Len

[plantass28]

Djlen,

Wow you are hardcore lol! update it is bubbling about every 4 seconds now. I will have to put your suggestions to use DJlen thanks.

Also I am happy to report that my anubia are pearling which I know is not the ultimate sign of their health, but it is none the less a good sign and I am extremely pleased.

Now if I can get the corkscrew val, and sagitaria subulata to pearl well be in business.

[djlen]

Don't worry about 'pearling'. To me, that's over rated and many plants will not pearl without super high light and maxed out CO2.
All it does is leave people dissappointed that the sinkin' things aren't pearling. Just watch your plants and they will tell you if they are happy.

Now that you've got the bubbles going, keep an eye on it and try to keep it as consistant as possible. I think inconsistant CO2 injection is worse than no CO2 at all. Your fish will not like pH swings.

I've never been called 'hardcore'...............thank you.

Len

[happychem]

Okay, so this may be a little late for you, but I found a link on a DIY CO2 with the addition of plain gelatin.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/plants/carbondiox.shtml

Basically you make most of your solution a sugar/gelatin mix and add a yeast mix to the top. The gelatin is supposed to contol the amount of food (sugar) that the yeast gets, hence the CO2 produced.

I plan on trying this when I set up my tank in the new year. I'll post my results. In the mean time, it may be something worth trying.

[DIYMatt]

I use the gelatin method on two tanks, currently. It works great for me. The gelatin seems to work like a regulator for the yeasts access to the sugar. My batches seeem to have a lot more consistant output and they seem to last longer. I strongly suggest you use it. Also, you can modify the recipe to fit your needs. On my 75g, I make a jello mix of one package of Jello(its cheaper than plain Gelatin here) plus 3 cups water in about 2/3 gallon of water. Then, I let it cool for a little while and pur it into the a one gallon juice jug. Let it sit overnight. Then, the next day I add the yeast. I use champagne yeast, which has worked much better than grocery yeast for me. Also, I rehydrate the yeast per the package directions plus I add one tsp sugar and some baking soda. It take a couple hours and it gets going. I use two bottles in rotation. More sugar to jello = more output/shorter life. More jello to sugar = lower output/longer life. Also, I use a full teaspoon yeast to be sure. I works great and I get about 12-15 ppm CO2 with it.

[plantass28]

DJLen,

I followed your suggestions to the tee. I am getting a very slow burst of co2 now, it hits the filter about every 10 to 12 seconds. Its like a stream of co2 though instead of bubbles. Im wondering if its how I have it setup. I have the tubing which is about 2 feet of tubing shooting into the inlet of my tetra tec filter. Is this right? I checked the bottle for leaks with the methods described however there were non detectable.

It might be getting the right concentration of co2, however I cant be sure because my ph tester is retarded. It goes from 7.5 to 7.0 with no colors in between, it might be 7.1, 7.2, or 7.3. The KH is 8 so it could be anywhere between 19 to 12 which would be low!

The ph tester is the Tetra ph tester.

Was thinking of breaking down and buying one of those hagen nutrafin co2 systems wheres the best place online to buy one?

[anonapersona]

That Fish Place - Nutrafin (http://www.thatpetplace.com/MainPro/Shopay00.aspx?SKW=F12)

[plantass28]

anonapersona,

Thanks a ton! It was a $1 cheaper today. So I went for it! Thanks for your help.

[plantass28]

Originally posted by plantass28
I hotglued the tubing to the cap, so I believe there are no leaks.

I will have to try submerging the bottle.

I saw that hagen system and thought it was okay, didnt like the reactor too much, huge footprint. Plus $30 is a bit much for something you can make your self for free.

I made sure the water was luke warm.

This morning the lights were off so it was hard to see if it was working, I will check again this afternoon.

To everyone sorry to bring this up again!

To DJLEN,

If I have hard water (specifically when filtered through a charcol filter 7.5) how much yeast should I be using?

Thanks.