The troubles with a new plant setup...

[as40]

Hello again everyone...

I'm the one who had the fungus problem (http://aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18826)

-and-

who needed help planting my plants (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19047).

Well, not doing too good!!! :shake:

I lost my dwarf hairgrass. It had become a brittle brown nest for snails, what could be seen of it within the thick, slimy long brown algea that smothered it.

The rest of my plants were overtaken with the same algea, which shocked me since I only went out of town for a couple days this past Thanksgiving, and there had been no sign of algea before I left.

So I did some searches on this forum and decided to try bleaching everything. My fungus-infested wood is sitting in a 40 quart container holding close to 2/3 a gallon of bleach and the rest tap water. By the time I get home from work it'll have been there for nearly 24 hours.

My surviving plants, I dipped in the container (only the leaves, not the roots) for no longer than a minute apiece, and then rinsed well in the kitchen sink, and then submerged in water mixed with some dechlorinator, then back into the aquarium.

This morning I checked and the plants still seem to be alive, and the wood looks nearly white. I have a few questions though. How long should I leave the wood in there before all the fungus spores should be killed, and how long should I soak the wood afterwards before it's safe to return to the aquarium? Also, when I say dechlorinator, I mean Kordon's AmQuel, nothing fancy. Is this good enough, just use a super large amount of the stuff? Also, what I have is kind of old; does the stuff ever go bad?

You all have been super helpful so far, so any further advice anyone can offer would be much appreciated.

[Leopardess]

Any dechlorinator will be fine...I like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Super Strength Tap Water Conditioner...its cheap and works well, but whatever you use is fine. Just remember that its better to OVER dechlor than under, and since the stuff is so cheap, why not.

They make chlorine tests, I believe, that your LFS should have if you'd like to be sure. Otherwise, I'd soak it, then dump it, refill it with dechlor, soak it again, dump it again...until you don't smell ANY chlorine.


Sorry about your plants...That stinks. I'm not too surprised about the parvulus though...i really have found its quite susceptible to algae growth when conditions aren't optimal - its just so fine. I'd still suggest getting some floating plants (I can't recall if you have or not...sorry)....they will help suck out those extra nutrients from the water column.

If its brown or slimy algae, I'd go through the tank and try to rub it off as many leaves as possible so that the plants don't get choked out quite as much.

Also, (can't remember again...) do you have any algae eaters...such as otos? These fish are worth their weight in gold, imo.

Dipping the plants in bleach may have been a bit of a "waste" of your time, as I am sure the algae will come back. New tanks get algae...there is really no way to avoid it - and if the conditions haven't changed, you'll be right back where you started.

Does the tank get natural sunlight, btw?


EDIT: Also, if its a hair type algae you're referring to, try getting a *clean* toothbrush and using it to twist the algae off...this usually works well...
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=8796060812&m=3256098022

[djlen]

The Aquarium Pharm. Tap Water Conditioner Leopardess refers to is great stuff. One drop per gallon for normal use. I use 3 or 4 drops/gal. after bleach treating anything, for the final rinse before re-introducing back to the aquarium.
I'm more than a little concerned about something you said however. Maybe I mis-read. Did you put the wood in a container with bleach and leave it for 24 hours? This, in my experience is not necessary, and could contaminate the wood with bleach, especially if it is old wood.
Bleach at a ratio of 19:1 will kill all algae on plants in anywhere from 45 secs. to 2 minutes. I've always gone by the theory that if it will do that on plants, it should do it on all objects, but since filter tubes, rocks, wood etc. are inanimate I've used 10:1 ratios and even higher ratios on them, but only for a few minutes on wood as it is porous and can retain bleach residue if left too long.
I may be wrong, but 24 hours for an old piece of wood to soak is, potentially a dangerous situation IMO.
I hope other people will chime in with thoughts on this. I may be an alarmist, but I'd hate to see you contaminate your tank.
I would not put the wood back into the tank without getting more input.

Len

[lesley]

I think if you let bleached items dry out, the bleach will degrade into a salt, rendering it non-bleaching. I would still soak it well to leach out the salt, but you shouldn't have a chlorine problem anymore.

I soaked some recently purchased wood in a bucket for a couple of days and got that slimy fungus that you described. I think that once I changed the water, it didn't reappear, but now I'm kind of worried about putting it in my tank. Hope your tank problems go away so that you can get to the fun part... the fish!!!

[as40]

Yeah, I left the wood in for 24 hours. I'm just about to drain, rinse, and start the dechlorination soak. I'll let it dry afterwards, and repeat the process of soaking in dechlor and rinsing until no more salt/bleach as you said lesley. It won't be back in the tank for a while.

I just bought my first fish for the tank tonight, actually, and they're in the water now. Hopefully they'll do better than the plants have. I got three flying foxes, as the LFS referred to them, as they are supposed to be great for eating hair algae, and two clown loaches to eat the snails. Figure I won't have to feed my fish for a while as they'll be able to find their own food already in the tank.

Leopardess, I don't really have any floating plants in my tank, so to speak, except for these tiny little clover-like things that I got along with my plants unexpectedly and seem to reproduce like magic. They don't get much bigger than the head of a pin-needle. The tank also gets no natural sunlight, and barely any filtered natural light at all.

Thanks for the input so far everyone. Cross your fingers for my tank! Also, I'm a glut for info, so I'm open to any experience/help anyone can offer! :)

I'll post more on here as it comes up...

[Leopardess]

Dj, I believe he was soaking the wood to rid it of fungal spores, which can be deep inside of it. Personally, I don't see a problem soaking it for even longer, so long as one accounts for extra dechlor time:) I had fungus on my wood and soaked it in a bleach solution for a couple of days. Granted, I also dechlored the heck out of it, then boiled it to open the wood fibers and dechlored it again. Better safe than sorry.

Have you considered taking the wood back to where you got it and trading it in for a different piece? If the fungus comes back after all this, I might consider it.

Do you mean duckweed, or lemna minor? It grows like crazy adn kind of resembles clover, but I find it to be at least 3-5 mm in diameter. If it is this, let it grow:) It is such a fast grower that it will surely suck up a lot of those excess nutrients:)

Um two big things about the fish:

Flying foxes...do you mean a TRUE siamese algae eater or a false siamenis...aka flying fox...a FALSE siamese does not do a very good job of algae cleanup and is generally mislabled as a true SAE.
I had a GREAT site about htem who's address was: www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html
But this doesn't seem to be working atm. Either way, you want a crossocheilus siamensis , NOT a epalzeorhynchus kalopterus. Try and look up how to tell the difference.
Also these get to be 6" a piece...do you have room?

ALSO, clown loaches will reach a thick FOOT in lenght and need really big tanks....I don't recall your tank being large enough. There are other methods of getting rid of snails...but if you feel you need a fish to do it, look into yoyo loaches which max at about four inches. my guess is the snails are helping eat your algae though. If its the mess they make that worries you, just do some extra vacuuming to clean up their little poops;)

[djlen]

Yes, that's basically why I asked for other feedback on this situation. I have no experience using that much bleach for that long a period of time and would hate to see somebody stick a piece of old wood into a tank that would leech toxins into the water table.
Not only are the false SAEs lousy at their assigned duties. They tend to get a bit aggressive as they mature. Wish I could find that site that has the comparison pictures of all the imposter's as well as the true SAE. It's here somewhere.....I'll keep looking. Might be on George Booth's site.

Len

[djlen]

Check these two.......they might help a bit:

http://users.frii.com/gbooth/AquaticConcepts/Fish/Eaters.htm

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=8796060812&m=3256098022

On the second link if you schroll down a bit there are some really clear pictures comparing the true and false SAE.

Len

[as40]

So far so good...

The fish are all still doing well, and seem to be adjusting fine to their new home. After your information though I'm nervous. The store I bought them at doesn't take returns/exchanges, so it looks like I'm stuck with what I have.

Leopardess, I did some reading up on the Clown Loaches, and what I found in Baensch's Aquarium Atlas was that they "rarely get more than six and a half inches in length" in a home aquarium (though you're right, they can get up to a foot long!), and the guys I have are less than an inch right now. I ultimately would like to upgrade to a larger tank, so hopefully they're slow enough growing that they'll be alright in my tank for the time being. I also don't care too much about the snails as long as they leave my plants alone, I just want to try and keep their population under control with the loaches. :) I looked into some other loaches but the LFS doesn't carry any others.

As for the "flying foxes"... That's a tough one. They're under an inch in length, and from looking at the pictures on the links you all provided, it's hard to tell if they're true SAE's or not. They also rarely hold still enough to examine them. :rolleyes:
From what I could see, they only appear to have one set of barbs on the upper lip, but the stripe that runs down the length of the body does not touch the back fin. All the fins are transparent but there is a faint yellowish sheen (though there are no "indistinctive dark bands and bright white tips"). When they rest, they stay propped up on their fins and tail, like C. siamensis, but I'm wondering if they aren't "Crossocheilus oblongus" from the looks of them. The barbs are what throw me though.

I bought a bunch more plants, this time from the LFS instead of online, and these look okay so far. I also am trying reducing the length of time the lights are on to 9.5 hours from 11.

Lastly, with the bleached wood I first drained/rinsed it, then filled up the same (rinsed) bucket with water and the wood, drained it after an hour, repeated. Then I filled with water, the wood, dechlor X4 what the regular dose would be, let it sit 24 hours, drained, and am now repeating. Tonight I want to dry the wood, and was wondering if I could do that in the oven. The "warm" setting is only 150 degrees F, I found out. Does anyone know if this would be okay or am I going to start a fire? :cool:

Thanks again everyone for all your time and input!

[DIYMatt]

On my first tank, I bleached everything including a large peice of drfitwood. I used about a 10:1 water to bleach ratio. BUT, I used like 2 tablespoons of Dechlor in about 5 gallons of water just to be sure. If you think about the small amount of chlorine that is in tap water compared to how much you used, it has to be more than 4x the concentration. So, to be sure I would load up the dechlor for the soak, it can't hurt as far as I know. I also threw a power head in the tub with the dechlor and wood to circualte the water. I don't know if that helps, but it didn't hurt. Also, from what I understand small amounts of chlorine are really not that dangerous to fish, its the chloramine that is dangerous. Actually, your plants can use trace amounts of chlorine and it is included in many plant ferts.

I'm not sure about heating the wood in the oven to 150 degrees. But, I would think putting the wood in front of a fan set on high it would totally dry out realtively fast.

[as40]

I decided against the oven bit. I have it in front of the heater instead. :D
It's almost dry, as far as I can tell, and once it is, it's back into the bucket of dechlor! I just bought a big bottle of stuff that takes care of the chlorine AND chloramine, so hopefully...

How many times do you think I need to soak it before everything's out and it's safe to return to the tank? This will be soak number 5.

Also just to update, I added 3 oto's to my tank last night. Love the little fella's!

[bghost1961]

dont' worry about the clown loaches. They are perfect for controlling snails. Unless you feed them extremely well with live foods, they are very slow grower (half-inch growth in about 6 months). True SAE grows much faster and will become more of a problem than clown loaches, IMHO, in term of large fish dashing around scaring off smaller fishes, and destroying the serenity of your aquascapes.