Greenish / Cloudy Water / Substrate

[drdream]

Hello, ive read many post regarding this issue. Its always states algae as the culprit. A little history:

This 75 Gallon tank was set up in another apt (2 blocks away).. The water was crystal clear at all times, algae would grow only after neglected water changes and extended lighting periods.

When i moved, i didnt set up the tank for 3 days, i later found out that most of the beneficial bacteria probably died and so the tank needed to cycle all over again.. After a few days the water was getting increasingly cloudy, so cloudy that you could not see the back of the tank. It was the whitish / milky cloudy. I assumed this was the cycle and let it go on. for about 3 weeks, finally i called the local pet-co and was told maybe i need to change the filter carbon, i went and bought more.. this did not solve the problem.. Finally i bought "Accu-Clear" water clearer.. It cleared the water to pristine quality in about an hour. I thought my problems were over, but slowly but surely it gets cloudy to the point of 0 visibility.

When doing the most recent gravel vacuum / water change, i noticed severe green layers on the substrate, and heavily inside the filter mesh. I rinsed all this away, did a 50% water change, completely vacuumed the gravel, and still no clear water. I then bought new filter carbon from fluval instead of 3rd party carbon. Did another water change, and still cloudy / merky / green water and filter media.

I feel ive tried everything, this tank was up for about 2 years in my other apt without any problems. :confused:

a few statistics:
Water temperature heated to constant 80F
Aquarium is near a window, but with blinds shut all the time.
Tank Light uses a dusk / dawn outdoor timer. On at dusk, off at dawn
I dont believe this to be an algae problem for the following reasons:
1) algae tends to grow on surfaces like the glass and ornaments before clouding the water.. No such algae exist
2) the tank light was left off for two weeks (bulb blew) still green . .
3) Fish are fed once every four days.
4) Tank was on the same light cycle and had much more direct sunlight in my other apt.
Tank has 7 fish for 75 gallons

Despite these problems, no fish have died (except for when the tank recycled killing many fishies :sad
I should also note that this is a rear facing window that gets little sunlight anyway, and the blinds are always shut. You would not know it was daytime unless you looked out the window.

please help

[cblin]

I'd get your water tested at a LFS. Bring a sample of your tap water as well as a sample from your tank. Have them both tested for ammonia, nitrate, pH, hardness, and for other elements such as iron.

You would not believe the difference the quality of tap water makes. I used to live in an apt where water was very hard with a lot of lime and iron in it. My plants would have slow growth and I was practically scraping algae every other day. I've recently moved to another apt, where water is soft, but not treated with water softener. My plants are now thriving and growing like weeds and I no longer have to scrape as much algae.

Best of luck to you.

[drdream]

Thanks for responding. The difference between this place is that this is a condo and the other place was an apt. This place has a water heater built in whereas the other place probably has shared water. I dont know about my testing skills because it seems that the tank water is exactly the same as tap water.

Tank:
P.H. - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.0 PPM
GH - 90PPM
Nitrite - 0.0 PPM

Tap:
P.H. - 7.6
Ammonia 0.0 PPM
GH - 90 PPM
Nitrite - 0.0 PPM

These are all the test i can run with the kit i have. The general hardness test is difficult because it says "stop when the water turns green" and as you add each drop (of the green liquid) the water turnes one shade darker of green.. so what green do they mean? The 90PPM result was from no hint of yellow, as all the drops yeilded green..

Weve been hit with some serious snow here in boston so i cannot make it to the petco, i will take my tap water and tank water there for sampling and post the results. thanks again..

[JSchmidt]

This may sound like a dumb question, but I can't tell from your posts... is the water a green cloudy color or white cloudy color. White cloudy water would indicate a different problem.

Also, what additives do you use - any dechlorinators, pH adjusters, vitamins, anything like that?

Jim

[drdream]

The water is definately green, as i stated above, the filter mesh is/was completely green, the water color is a light pastel like green while the filter mesh has a darker navy green. Also green substance on substrate when vacuuming..

However there is no algae on the glass, or any surfaces and again, i do not believe this to be algae.

The tank overall has a greenish tint everythings green!!
Im on my way to the pet store now

[JSchmidt]

Green water is a unicellular, floating algae. It can (and often does) occur even if you're not growing mats of algae elsewhere in the tank.

Green water can be cured by either reducing nutrients (e.g., nitrates, phosphates, etc.) in the water column and/or by decreasing light. Some people have had success with a total tank blackout for 2-3 days. Nutrients can be reduced by feeding less often and/or doing water changes; sounds like you've been doing that already. Do you use any sort of pH adjuster like ProperPH? It's loaded with phosphates, which is wonderful for unicellular algae.

If all else fails, you can always get a UV unit, but that's rarely necessary.

Good luck,
Jim

[drdream]

I appreciate your help, ive tried to be as clear as i can.. I have not been using any chemicals or water treatment products except for Water Conditioner when changing water, and Accu-Clear water clearer.

The tank light was out for two weeks because the bulb blew. In that two weeks of tank darkness there was no change in the density of the cloudy water.

Even after cleaning the tank, substrate, and filter the water returns to cloudy within 24-48 hours. Accuclear worked for a while but dosent seem to be working anymore.

I also recall some reddish brown stuff when vaccuming but i could be imagining that.

Here is a photo, its hard to tell from the photo but the water is a light green color.
http://www.shelterproductions.com/shelter/images/tank1.jpg

[OrionGirl]

How often do you do water changes, and what size are they? Accu-Clear should not be used--it's adding chemicals to your water, and not helping, so toss it. If you can, I would get a quart of water from a healthy planted tank, and maybe consider adding some low light plants like java ferns or anubias. The plants will compete with the free-floating algae for nutrients.

[drdream]

I do 25% water changes once per month.. I just came back from the petco, they told me they had a woman with the same problem with a water heater. I just moved into this new place and it has its own water heater.. they said maybe there could be too much iron in the water but i have no test for this.

I bought more acu-rel-f (arrgg).. surprisingly it cleared up the water to about 90% visibility.. so now im just waiting to see if it clouds back up again. Also i should note (as i slap myself on the head) that this temporary regular flourescent light i bought (from hardware store) gives off a greenish afterglow. I will switch back to plant flourescent lights.

Latest petco test:

Aquarium
PH. 7.6
GH "soft"
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites / Nitrates: 0

Tap:
PH. 8.4??
GH "soft"
Ammonia: 0

[JSchmidt]

Hmmm... I've never heard of a water heater causing algae blooms. I suspect your Petco help doesn't of what he/she speaks.

You note that your tap water tests at zero nitrites and nitrates. Did they conduct two separate tests to discover that? It would be unusual for a cycled tank to have no nitrates, unless you've got so much algae that it's scavenging all available nitrogen. That seems unlikely to me.

It would be nice if the stuff you added permanently clears the water, but I'd be pretty surprised if it did. Usually it just causes the stuff in the water to clump and settle, only to be replaced by a new bloom.

I'd be inclined to try daily water changes of 25% coupled with a total blackout for 2-3 days (blanket over the tank, the works) and see if that helps.

Keep us posted...

Jim

[elcano]

I have exactly the same problem short of the algae in the substrate. Unlike drdream I've never used a regular fluro tube, only ever the proper tubes. drdream: This could well be your problem.

As for me, well, hell.. I dunno..
I did a check of my water the other day and the ph was well and truly alkaline.. I did a 40% change and put a little bit of ph-down. (a bad thing to do, I've learned now). I also rinced out my filter pad and medium in tank water.
Doing a change temporarily semi-solves the problem, but the algae just comes back.
As you can see in the following pics, it's both white and green.
Yes it's near a window, but no direct light gets in, and I've had the tank there over 2 years. This problem has only occured in the past 3 months.

I've tried doing changes every week, every half week and even once every 2 or 3 weeks.

The closest I have come to success is leaving the tank for 4 weeks. The water cleared up, but upon changing the water it went green/white again.

More details: I've used three different water treatments in the time of the evil algae cloud: Stresscoat, Safe Guard 5 (an aussie local brand) and aquatan.
I use stresszyme as well.

I feed the fish flakes and frozen blood worms on alternating days, the catfish get algae flakes which get entirely eaten.

I took some water to my LFS and the bloke said that there was nothing wrong with my water.. (specifically no phosphates) He suggested algae clear and do less water changes.. I lost all respect for him.

My fish have no ill effects, they love it.

ANY HELP WOULD BE FANTASTIC!
http://zigzig.net/images/dave/IMGP0416.jpg
http://zigzig.net/images/dave/IMGP0418.jpg

Thanks!

[elcano]

Anyone?

[drdream]

Im waiting to see if the water clouds back up. The floro tube is only a few days old and this problem has been persisting for the last 3 months. Perhaps elcano and I have some things in common. I will list the differences between my pristine tank, and the green monster.

Tank was pristine in other apt. So . . .

New Things since i've moved:
1) In-House Water heater

2) Directly in front of a window (i think its dark but paying more attention i concede that sun rays do penetrate the tank through the blinds but only penetrate about 1/8 of the tank)

3) Hi PH water

4) Ground Level apt (other was 4th fl)

5) Used different large rock-like COAL than the filter came with.

6) Used live frozen shrimp (possible excessively) But have not used live food in the last 45 days or since water change.

The tank appears to be slowly getting cloudy again. If it clouds again i will give it the blanket treatment to rule out light as the problem.

[elcano]

dr...
I've used a carbon filter as well with no result what so ever.
I also tried the blanket treatment for 48 hours, with no result.

I'll have to check, but I think we had a new water heater installed around 3 or so months ago. If that's the case I might try heating cold water accordingly.

If Iron is the problem, does anyone know how to get rid of it?
A Magnet? :p :D

[drdream]

hmm, this water heater is also 3 months old.. . .

[JSchmidt]

Puzzling... I can't think of anything that would cause a new hot water heater to cause algae blooms...

What level of nitrates do both of you get? You can't have algae without nutrients. I'm also a bit perplexed by the discrepancy between drdream's tap water pH vs. tank pH.

Also, drdream, I think the direct sunlight you note is likely a player in this -- how could it not be? -- there are probably a number of contributing factors, and I'll bet the sunlight is one of them.

Jim

[drdream]

The water is definately clouding up again.. Its not so green this time.. im about to give up! i dont know what else to do

[elcano]

I took a water sample to my LFS today and the results were 0 nitrate, 0 phosphates, 0 ammonia, okay ph..

man, I dunno.. I'm rugging my tank again.
pure black out for 4 days.. see how it goes..

I shall report back.

[fishfrenze]

I had the same problem with my 72 gallon. All the sudden my water was green...nothing had changed in the tank, it just happened. I covered the tank with a THICK blanket (you'd be surprised at how much light can get through a couple sheets) for three days. After three days, it was still a little cloudy, but I did a 50% water change and it got increasingly clear over the next couple days. Two-three days later it was back to normal.

Melanie

[ewok]

plan a: do the blanket bit and don't take it off til either the water clears. or maybe go 7 days with it covered, whichever comes first. use a thick, dark blanket. you basically want no light to make it into the tank. it takes very little light to keep the algae bloom going, i did some experimenting with one before with a tank in my cellar. even the gloomy light coming in thru the painted windows was enuf to keep mine alive when i just left the lights off. i still had to totally blanket the tank to kill it. then once it dies, do a fairly large water change......

plan b: get a diatom filter, this will fix the problem in a couple of hours........

the acu-clear is just a polymer? clumping agent, i bought it myself a long time ago. it just binds all the little particles into big particles and makes them large enuf for the filter to trap..... if you leave these in the filter after they're trapped they just continue the problem.....

discontinue any chemicals and carbon/zeolite (ammo chips) *besides* water conditioner would be a decent idea. the *only* thing i use with my tanks is "stress coat" as a water conditioner, although some of the old timers would advise something even simpler like "prime". stress coat adds aloe and/or some other junk you really don't need, i just find it convenient to do the "1 squirt per gallon" thing.

i would caution you to be careful as you kill the algae off and do some extra water changes and test the water. i have a strange little theory that your tank might be either barely cycled or not at all. when the algae "bloom" like that they can actually take the place of the bacteria as they will use the nutrients at least as easily as the bacteria and i would hazard a guess that they will multiply alot faster. so when you remove the algae by blanket or diatom pay attention to your ammonia reading, you might start seeing some. just doing water changes will help as it will also remove some of the nutrients the algae thrive on each time. you cannot make your water "too clean".......

good luck and post back

[ewok]

JSchmidt: i read somewhere that plants actually prefer ammonia and/or possibly nitrite to nitrate as a fertilizer. it was something like it was easier for them to use i think.......

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/nitrate-chart.html


I think I can add some information on the ammonium vs. nitrate debate.

About a year ago there was an article by Diana Walstad that said something
to the effect that aquatic plants preferred ammonium over nitrate.

She based her article on a peer-reviewed publication that cited
results from a study done with Spirodela (a kind of large duckweed).
This floating plant was grown in a mix of equal concentrations of
ammonium, nitrite and nitrate. Tests showed that the ammonium was
absorbed first, and nitrate last. Nitrate *was* used up, but only
after practically all the ammonium ions were gone."


There are no experimental studies (as far as I know) that indicate
aquatic plants are unable to use nitrate. There are several studies,
however, that
indicate clearly that aquatic plants CAN utilize nitrate. Some of these
studies also show that ammonia(um) is preferentially absorbed. This makes
sense due to the high metabolic cost of reducing nitrate.


edit: the white could be caused by a screwed up cycle and a "bacterial bloom"..........

[Hans]

perhaps its a phosphate problem? phoshpates are food to algea like this, you should get it tested, and if its high, which is the case with most anyone that brings in green water to our store, get phos gard, put it in the filter, bam shold be good!

[JSchmidt]

Phosphates were zero when tested by the LFS, I believe he said...

Jim

[elcano]

Thanks for all of your help!

Just a couple of questions ewok.
When using the blanket, can keeping your fish in pure darkness for up to a week have any negative effects?
Also, do you suggest I put a vacation feeder in there for them to eat during that time?

Thanks!

[ewok]

i'm not sure it would take a whole week to kill the algae off. i think i would check after 4 or 5 days and see how it's progressing. the whole key is keeping the light to an absolute minimum tho. look quick to check things and then cover it back up if it's green still.

as far as detrimental affects, the only thing that comes to mind is the fish might be slightly skittish when you start using lights again. other than that nothing comes to mind, hopefully someone will chime in if they think i'm wrong.....

skip the vacation feeders, if you've used one of them that *might* have contributed to your problems somehow. i'm not super sold on them at all. i've heard rumors that some of them contain plaster to hold them together and i've seen a few posts that reference them and having some serious problems. in theory, if your feeding your fish well you should be able to go a week without feeding them. i'd go with feeding them lightly with a little flake food every day.

you don't want to neccesarily bury your tank and forget it, just keep it as dark as you can until the algae goes away. the more light you let into it the longer it will take to kill the algae off. too much light and the algae just won't die.

[elcano]

Thanks for your help, again.

No, I've never used a vacation feeder.
There are plenty of plants in my tank, so if they get hungry they can munch away on them. :)

[drdream]

Ewok suggested cleaning the filter after using accu-relf.. I was not performing this seeminly obvious task. I cleaned the filter after accurelf clumped everything together.. I also wiped the sides of the tank very well as hard brownish algae that was starting to form onto the glass. The water has been clear for 48 hours now.


If the water stays clear i would conclude this:

1) The first product i used to clear the water (accu-clear) may have had a greenish after-affect or solution as accu-rel-f has a brownish one. When it clumped everything together and cleared the water all of that stuff was sitting in the filter slowly breaking apart and returning to the water giving the illusion of green water.


2) A thin layer of algae on the glass around the tank was giving the illusion of green water (but this wouldnt explain the green substrate and green filter) but perhaps cleaning the glass contributed to inhibiting further algae growth.


I will advise if the water changes.

p.s.
the LFS did not (in my case) check for phosphates and i dont have this test.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by drdream
p.s.
the LFS did not (in my case) check for phosphates and i dont have this test.

Ooops... that was elcano, I guess. I'm getting all you green water guys mixed up...


:)

Good luck with the lights out... remember, there's always UV if all else fails!

Jim

[ewok]

any updates? :confused:

[elcano]

I had two rugs over my tank for 4 days..
Pulled it off and it was still green/white so I did a 50% change and change the filter pad (not medium) in my eheim. I also did a major vacuum and cleaned the hoses. That made a noticable difference to the water flow from the filter, but the green persists.

I guess all I can do is keep trying and hoping.. :rolleyes:

[drdream]

My water has remained clear showing signs of about only 5% cloudy, i suspect that will go away with the next gravel vacuum. so my conclusions above must be valid..

elcano changed her filter mesh, i used a water clearer, waited for the water to clear, then cleaned the filter mesh.. this got rid of whatever was making the water green.. i also thoroughly cleaned the glass.

Hope this helps..

[elcano]

I think I might try some of that clumping agent as well.

oh.. and I'm a 'he'. :P