Arkangel77 180 Gallon Discus Tank pic thread

[Arkangel77]

Well I am going to post the first few pics I had in my phone. I will take more Current pics of my set up in the next day or so and post them. I have changed the background color and the substrate to sand cense these pics were taken so in truth the tanks looks much different now.
This is a 180 Bow front. I had the back drilled for the overflow which I installed. I don’t have as you go pics but I designed and constructed the hood and stand myself. I made the stone walls for my "planted" area also.

The first 2 shots are when I brought it in the house.

The 3rd is newly filled and the 4th is newly planted.

The 5th shot was about 2 months ago, you cant see them but I swapped over to LED light tubes and that’s whats lighting the top on the tank in that pic.

More to come, Arkangel77

[Rbishop]

Very nice!

[rich_one]

man... I long for the day I get me a tank anywhere close to that size! very nice!

-Rich

[Star_Rider]

sweet.
I'm still looking for a 200+ to place in my den.

[Arkangel77]

Thanks guys - Like most anything else we finatics get involved in. I am drooling of the 350's or larger LOL.

[pinkertd]

Nice!!!! I have large tank envy.....sneaks off to make phony phone call to Arkangel 77 as a representative of the tank/stand manufacturer I must convince Arkangel to send this to me before his house floods due to some major manufacturing error.....hehehehe!

[snoopy65]

Beautiful tank!

[clayt101]

Nice...looks like a good place to hold a SELAS meeting :D

[Arkangel77]

Nice...looks like a good place to hold a SELAS meeting :D

LOL - SURE

Pink cant do it and snoops Thank you! I am gona take some more pics today!:woot:

[Arkangel77]

Ok here is a pic of my LED lights and my filter fish In my Wet dry- lol.

[Arkangel77]

Ok here are some whole tank kinda shots. I think I need more plants but I need to change 2 of the led tubes for some new ones and get my Light intensity up first.

[Arkangel77]

Ok here are a few close up fish shots. You guys have seen some of these already. I am holding a few extra in here till I get my 75 cycled. As you can see from the erlier shots the entire tank looks different after the sand and background color swap!

[Arkangel77]

I have 3 large stumps of Manza. wood coming in this week so Depending on how they look I may change the Wood on the tank. Just don't know yet?

SO I guess that's it for now - I use a wet dry filter system Obviously with a Big UV and Lotsa water changes. SO ENJOY!

Arkangel77

[smartdog126]

very nice photos! keep them coming

[snoopy65]

You have some beautiful fish.

[Arkangel77]

Thank you Snoops, I can call ya Snoops right - LOL. I have grown some over the last several months but some of the BIG ones came from a local breader. That man has some nice fish!!!! I do love them and they look SOOOO much better cence I changed the background and swapped to a sand bottom! Some of your plants are in that tank BTW.

Thnaks,
Arkangel77

[snoopy65]

:thumbsup:I knew there was a reason I liked that tank!

[rich_one]

what a super setup! if I may ask, where'd you get your moonlights?

[Arkangel77]

EBAY EBAY EBAY! lol

I Originaly bought a string of 5 tubes about a foot or so each for moonlights HOWEVER, They were so bright I use them during the day as a Attinics Kinda. I now use a string of 20 LEDs for moonlight and the affect is Much better, I will take a pic of the Moon's now and then another later when the Daylights go out.

Arkangel77

[Arkangel77]

this is the rag tag way I got them strung it works but not that need, I need to clean it up some.

[pinkertd]

Gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're seriously killing me! LOL! Are ya single????? LOL!

[snoopy65]

Gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're seriously killing me! LOL! Are ya single????? LOL!


I have heard of going after a man for his money! But for his fish tank??:naughty:

[Star_Rider]

:popcorn::popcorn:


:lol::laugh:


heywaitaminute

you said you were holding a few waiting for your 75 to cycle???

but... but...but don't you already have a cycled tank???

[Arkangel77]

:popcorn::popcorn:


:lol::laugh:


heywaitaminute

you said you were holding a few waiting for your 75 to cycle???

but... but...but don't you already have a cycled tank???

Yep I have the 180, a 55 up and running, a 2G for a Happy Betta and a 75 to replace the 55 which I am setting up today or tomarow! I am thinking of moving some af the smaller Discus to the 75 to GROW in piece, maybe.

As a matter a Fact I am Single Pink (well not really). I have bin divorced for 1.5 years and Me and my 3 kids (twin 10Yr Girls & 5yr Boy) are all in love with my Girlfriend Marry & her two little girls 11yr and 3yr old. I am a full time dad as my X decided she did not want to be married or a mom after being together for almost 18years. BUT that's a story for another thread! SO not married but not single and a FULL time dad. I keep Buisey. LOL :woot: PS - Me and my son are NO outnumbered!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arkangel77

[rich_one]

only discus can beautifully grace one's aquarium, and attract new girlfriends, all in one fell swoop... no other species of fish can claim that! LOL...

[Arkangel77]

Rich she fell for me long before she ever saw the tank.:naughty: She does like it as well, she likes is a bunch.:thumbsup:

[rich_one]

Rich she fell for me long before she ever saw the tank.:naughty: She does like it as well, she likes is a bunch.:thumbsup:
LOL! :woot:

[pinkertd]

That's awesome! A sweet woman and some sweet kids and tanks! Doesn't get much better!!!

[jpappy789]

LOL

That's a large group of some very nice discus!

[Arkangel77]

YEP YEP - Thanks to you all

[bs6749]

Arkangel, I know that in another thread you said that you wanted to do a ram tank in your 75g, but I think you should do something else with it and I'm really surprised that nobody has pointed it out thusfar.

Looking at your 180g tank you have many discus in there of varying sizes. I see that at least one of them is showing signs of being stunted. What I recommend to you is that you make your 75g a barebottom tank, get the temp up to 86 degrees, and move all of the fish that are smaller than 4.5" TL over to that tank to grow them out. They aren't going to be the beautiful adults like you have in there now as the adults will outcompete them for food and juvies need TONS of freshwater to grow. Hormones are secreted by the fish (especially the more mature fish) that prevent smaller fish from growing when the levels get to a certain point. This is why juvies need large and frequent water changes. I suggest that you move them over and keep them there for 3-4 months until they are 4.5" or so (not including the tail length). Feed them high quality and nutritious foods and you will be amazed how much they grow from this and the large water changes you should be doing. I've seen a hobbyist document with pictures the growth rates of fish that were stunted (far worse shape than yours) and they turned out to be some very nice looking fish. He did this with large water changes and at least half a dozen feedings per day. I'm not sure if the number is right but I have in my mind that he fed up to 11 times per day. This is why a good quality flake like Ocen Nutrition Prime Reef will come in handy for your situation. It will help your juvies grow into the beautiful adults that are already in your tank.

[Arkangel77]

I have bin considering this exact thing. I have noticed one of the blue Diamonds showing sign's of stunting. I started with generally smaller fish but as some grew and I came across a deal on those adults I kinda just mixed them all together... I have bin tossed back and forth as to what I may do and I am considering using the 75 just as you said and then swapping it over for rams. DO you think the bare bottom is 100% necessary? I guess it would make clean up a lot easier. I actually have another 75 in the shed but I was gona try to sell it. O well - I think separating the smaller Discus is a Very good idea and I had no clue that the larger ones secreted hormones that would stunt the smaller ones???????

:uhoh:

Arkangel77

[bs6749]

Even the smaller ones will secrete hormones that will prevent the others from growing once the levels build up to that critical point. The BD's were the ones that I noticed were slightly stunted. They are a slow growing strain as it is and having them stunted makes it that much harder for them to obtain a nice shape.

IMO it is necessary to have a bare bottom tank since the water changes are much easier to do. I have potted plants in my bare bottom discus growout tank. That way some of the nitrates will still be absorbed and more O2 can get into the water.

The rams would do fine in a 55g. I'd actually prefer 2 pairs in a 55g rather than a 75g since they don't need that extra 6 inches of tank depth. Discus would benefit much more from the 6 inches than the rams would. They are fine at 20g per pair. I've spawned my before in 10g tanks by themselves. Many breeders use 10g tanks for rams.

[Arkangel77]

Thank you for the info - I hate Bare Bottom tanks But maybe I will try it. Might be OK with some plant's and YEP its the Blue D's that I was recently noticing were not looking great. They were TINNY when I first got them. I will get them outa there ASAP. Thank you for the advice - I do aprechiate it!

Arkangel77

[Arkangel77]

PS - I forgot to mention that I tried to take a pic of the MOON lights last night but my cheep camera is not gona cut it. The moon lights put out such dim light the camera does not see anything. It is a very nice look, wish I could get a pic for you all to see.


Arkangel77

[pinkertd]

The thought that discus secret hormones to keep other discus from growing has never been proven. Stunting is either a result of genetics and/or inadequate diet and growing conditions....period. If you move your smaller discus out to give them a chance to reach their full potential.....its about the food, food, food, food. Feed them a rich diet, lots of it, often (6X/day) and keep the water clean as you can. See what happens. If it's genetics, they'll get a bit fatter.

[bs6749]

The thought that discus secret hormones to keep other discus from growing has never been proven. Stunting is either a result of genetics and/or inadequate diet and growing conditions....period. If you move your smaller discus out to give them a chance to reach their full potential.....its about the food, food, food, food. Feed them a rich diet, lots of it, often (6X/day) and keep the water clean as you can. See what happens. If it's genetics, they'll get a bit fatter.

If it's genetics, they might not get fatter, and they might not eat much at all. Some discus can have a higher metabolism and may never get fat, while others may have smaller stomachs and will be constantly looking for food (spending energy) and won't grow much. Also, there are many experts that would disagree with you, including Jack Wattley and Andrew Soh and other hobbyists with decades of experience with these fish. Jack has done many experiments on this and has come to the conclusion that there is a "growth inhibiting toxin" secreted by the alpha male which prevents the others from growing. What's more is that when this alpha male was removed, another alpha male took it's place very quickly and sometimes surpassed the size of the initial alpha male. These experiments were done with fry from the same spawn (to rule out genetics as the cause) and with food in excess. There will be a standard normal distribution (bell shaped curve) seen in the growth of a large spawn. Some will be runts, others will be giants. When you start to see the mean shift you can notice that something is at play. The experiments rule out food and genetics. The frequent water changes that show phenomonal growth rates in the fish show that there is something in the water itself inhibiting the growth of the fish. When the alpha male was removed he stopped secreting this hormone and it allowed others to grow and one to become the new alpha. It's a pretty simple and straight-forward concept. Often, the simplest answer is the correct one.

[Star_Rider]

interesting but

does the 'test' take into consideration food consumption. while the hormone in the water is theory
often over looked is the competition for food and territorial issues that result from more dominant fish.

ie the alpha male may eat more or prevent other less aggressive fish to get to the food.

I am not totally convinced on the 'hormone' theory.
but i am sure that competition and room are contributing factors.

btw removal of the alpha male in the above situation would reduce competition and allow others to get food.

[bs6749]

btw removal of the alpha male in the above situation would reduce competition and allow others to get food.

That might be a reasonable assumption, but discus form a hierarchy, and they all know who is #1, #2, ... and last in line. When #1 leaves there may be a power struggle between #2 and #3 for the new #1 spot, but nobody is going to get more food when it is fed in excess.

[Star_Rider]

but dominant fish may inhibit other fish from getting food.

discus are not the only cichlid that form hierarchy.

Angels will do similar and when not breeding will school.

the fact that some fish are small due to hormones is hard to prove when only some fish in the tank are affected.

in my tank I have mixed sizes of discus.. with several larger ones and several smaller ones.

what makes me not believe hormones as an issue it how only 1-2 are affected .

leading me to suspect genetics or competition.

the hormones would have a broad affect and affect all but the largest fish.

which is where this is hard to believe when , again. only 1-2 fish are actually smaller.

[Draal5]

I need to find the data but the hormone theory has been disproved. Do not put your faith in all the old timers for your information.

They are from the time when they would purposelessly put out disinformation to hide their secrets to keep others from competing with them also to keep prices high.

It still goes on to this day there is a well know discus guy doing it and has been. some day I will name names and details but I was told this, heard from he himself and this saw in confidence.

This problem and it is a problem, is some thing this hobby needs to get over.

[bs6749]

Why are large water changes benificial to the growth of discus then? It's been proven time and time again that large water changes do provide excellent growth rates for discus. When food and genetics are ruled out, this leaves the quality of water as the variable at hand. There is obviously SOMETHING in the water that is preventing ALL of the discus from reaching their potential, and that something needs to be identified. It shouldn't be NH3, nor nitrite as they shouldn't appear in a cycled tank. This leaves nitrates and something that the fish secrete. It's possible that it's the nitrates that are preventing the discus growth. All that I've heard and read about however suggests that there is an inhibiting hormone at play. Maybe this hormone is one that helps to "establish territories" in the wild. Maybe a mature male and/or female secrete this hormone around their nesting site in the wild to signal to others "get away, this is our spot". Maybe the submissive discus recognize this hormone and they move out of the area to find another mate and/or food. This benefits the dominant pair since there will be less competition in their area for resources, spawning sites, less threat to their fry from hungry discus, etc. We have taken these fish from the wild and put them into small boxes so we can see them leading to much higher concentrations than would occur in the wild. Who is to say that this hormone doesn't also inhibit the growth of other discus? Wouldn't that be beneficial to an alpha male that was already paired? It makes sense to me that he would be trying to secure his spot as the alpha male by not letting the other males grow. I think some more work and research should be done identifying exactly what this hormone is and how it works. It makes perfectly good sense to me on why and how it would work.

[shawnhu]

Why are large water changes benificial to the growth of discus then? It's been proven time and time again that large water changes do provide excellent growth rates for discus. When food and genetics are ruled out, this leaves the quality of water as the variable at hand. There is obviously SOMETHING in the water that is preventing ALL of the discus from reaching their potential, and that something needs to be identified. It shouldn't be NH3, nor nitrite as they shouldn't appear in a cycled tank. This leaves nitrates and something that the fish secrete. It's possible that it's the nitrates that are preventing the discus growth. All that I've heard and read about however suggests that there is an inhibiting hormone at play. Maybe this hormone is one that helps to "establish territories" in the wild. Maybe a mature male and/or female secrete this hormone around their nesting site in the wild to signal to others "get away, this is our spot". Maybe the submissive discus recognize this hormone and they move out of the area to find another mate and/or food. This benefits the dominant pair since there will be less competition in their area for resources, spawning sites, less threat to their fry from hungry discus, etc. We have taken these fish from the wild and put them into small boxes so we can see them leading to much higher concentrations than would occur in the wild. Who is to say that this hormone doesn't also inhibit the growth of other discus? Wouldn't that be beneficial to an alpha male that was already paired? It makes sense to me that he would be trying to secure his spot as the alpha male by not letting the other males grow. I think some more work and research should be done identifying exactly what this hormone is and how it works. It makes perfectly good sense to me on why and how it would work.

A lot of "maybe's" in your post to still stand by the "hormone" theory. I don't believe in this theory. To state that it's either Nitrate, or hormones at play when it comes to Discus fish not growing to their full potential is rediculous. Do you know how many things are at play when people talk about "good quality" vs "bad quality" water? I'm sure you know that young Discus cannot be grown in "pure" water also, right?

By your theory, the Alpha male would be secreting this "hormone" to inhibit the growth of young Discus, possibly his own offspring. This does make sense, but what about when you're growing out young Discus that hasn't reached maturity? Are they also secreting such "hormone" to inhit their own growth? Surely you're not implying that young Discus also secret this unidentified "hormone"? What's the purpose for young Discus to do such a thing?

There's a much better theory out there than "hormones". One that deals directly with water quality, something that can be measured, and not guestimated.

Shawn

[bs6749]

A lot of "maybe's" in your post to still stand by the "hormone" theory. I don't believe in this theory. To state that it's either Nitrate, or hormones at play when it comes to Discus fish not growing to their full potential is rediculous. Do you know how many things are at play when people talk about "good quality" vs "bad quality" water? I'm sure you know that young Discus cannot be grown in "pure" water also, right?

By your theory, the Alpha male would be secreting this "hormone" to inhibit the growth of young Discus, possibly his own offspring. This does make sense, but what about when you're growing out young Discus that hasn't reached maturity? Are they also secreting such "hormone" to inhit their own growth? Surely you're not implying that young Discus also secret this unidentified "hormone"? What's the purpose for young Discus to do such a thing?

There's a much better theory out there than "hormones". One that deals directly with water quality, something that can be measured, and not guestimated.

Shawn

Sure there are a lot of maybes, but there always a lot of maybes. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to say that it's either nitrates or something being secreted by the fish. Why? Because stunting happens in tanks with low TDS, high TDS, low KH, high KH, low pH, high pH, low temperature, high temperature, etc. The same can be said about many other parameters and thus they can be eliminated as the culprits of stunting.

Now look at the water in instances where fish AREN'T stunted and you'll find that nitrates are low or nonexistant. This is the result of many water changes or live plants removing the nitrate from the water for their own growth. Many hobbyists have reported that live plants seem to make their discus grow faster than without them. I keep a barebottom tank with sub adults (now) and potted live plants and my discus have grown well on a not so regular water change schedule. So maybe nitrates inhibit discus growth.

Also, you are assuming that discus fry are receptive to this hormone and I never suggested that at all. Quite possibly discus become receptive and also secrete this hormone when they are juvies. This would make sense if you consider what follows.

Discus are a schooling fish and there is an alpha male and an alpha female. They have to be the healthiest of the group to ensure the survival of the group. They eat first, they determine the pecking order, and quite possibly they secrete a hormone to prevent the others from growing as large. Why would they do this? Because that allows them to grow larger and stronger and when confronted by a predator, the school's alpha leaders will be the targets, since they stick out as they are the largest. They are also very healthy and strong and just maybe they draw the predator away from the rest of the school to ensure the survival of the rest of the group. If the alpha is eaten, a new alpha quickly arises and puts on much size as has been evidenced in many hobbyist's tanks (when the alpha was removed). They alpha may have sacrificed itself, but the group as a whole survives.

This would make sense for they fry situation as well, IF you believe that the fry are affected by the hormone. I do not believe this as it would be detrimental to the growth of the fry more than it would ensure their protection and that's why I think they don't become receptive to the hormone until they become juvies. At this point they may be starting to look for mates and to prove to a potential mate that they are strong and healthy. What better way to do this than to sabotage the competition? It makes sense though that the parent would want to have a predator see the parent as a target rather than their offspring. Both parents take care of the fry and are capable of feeding them so if one of the parents gets killed the fry can still survive with the other parent. But if this were the case, the parents would be brightly colored when spawning and the opposite is true. Parents darken to attract fry, it's the same reason albinos are far more difficult to get the fry to attach to than something like a blue diamond pair. Some theorize that the albino fry don't have the pigments in their eyes to see the parents well, but the same thing happens in snow white/white diamond pairs where the fry have a difficult time finding the parents. Must be the color of the parents more than the lack of pigments in the frys' eyes.

You say that there is a MUCH BETTER theory out there that explains the stunting that deals directly with water quality. I've supported the theoy I belive in based on what I've heard, read, and seen. You say that there is much support out there for the water quality theory and I stated that stunting happens in tanks with low and high levels of many parameters, except nitrate. Water changes would remove nitrates and the hormones as well, so something like KNO3 would have to be added back into the water to ensure a high level to rule out nitrates as the stunting variable.

By the way, you do know that these hormones would be considered a water quality issue, right? And once identified, their levels in the tank could be calculated and monitored, provided that someone owns the right equipment. It may not be cost efficient, but proving that they are there, and finding the level at which stunting occurs are the first steps that need to be taken.

[BoCoMo]

Beautiful AA!!

[poconogal]

What a sight to see, all those Discus! Looks awesome!

[Star_Rider]

bs6749

if you wish to debate the 'hormone' theory.
please feel free to start another thread.

otherwise please keep this thread on track

[Draal5]

Sorry Star I read your post after I replied.

lets say that there is hormones secreted in the water to allow the alpha male to grow larger than the rest.
given that.

1.what is the biological imperative for that?

2. why don't we have miniature discus in all are tanks given the amount of hormone that would have to be produced to accomplish that in the wild?

would we not have to keep discus in their own tank to reach optimum growth

[bs6749]

lets say that there is hormones secreted in the water to allow the alpha male to grow larger than the rest.
given that.

1.what is the biological imperative for that?

2. why don't we have miniature discus in all are tanks given the amount of hormone that would have to be produced to accomplish that in the wild?

would we not have to keep discus in their own tank to reach optimum growth

1. A larger male will be more appealing to females and he will be able to find a mate more easily, thus making it easier to pass along his DNA.

2. My point is that we do have miniatures with stunting. In the wild there is much more room for discus and if they sense the hormones they move out of an established territory.

Don't have to keep them in separate tanks, just do large water changes to remove the hormones.

[Draal5]

1. A larger male will be more appealing to females and he will be able to find a mate more easily, thus making it easier to pass along his DNA.

2. My point is that we do have miniatures with stunting. In the wild there is much more room for discus and if they sense the hormones they move out of an established territory.

Don't have to keep them in separate tanks, just do large water changes to remove the hormones.

point 1 is flawed as Discus primarily spawn with one partner and swim in schools so the need to stunt others is not a biological imperative. Not like lions that will kill other males as well as their male offspring (not the best parallel but makes my point)

point 2 is anecdotal at best and can be explained easier by genetics or water quality at the time of spawning ie they spawned late in the season and water quality was not at its optimal. something contaminated the water ie dead fish or animal etc.