Arkangel77 180 Gallon Discus Tank pic thread

[bs6749]

Arkangel, I know that in another thread you said that you wanted to do a ram tank in your 75g, but I think you should do something else with it and I'm really surprised that nobody has pointed it out thusfar.

Looking at your 180g tank you have many discus in there of varying sizes. I see that at least one of them is showing signs of being stunted. What I recommend to you is that you make your 75g a barebottom tank, get the temp up to 86 degrees, and move all of the fish that are smaller than 4.5" TL over to that tank to grow them out. They aren't going to be the beautiful adults like you have in there now as the adults will outcompete them for food and juvies need TONS of freshwater to grow. Hormones are secreted by the fish (especially the more mature fish) that prevent smaller fish from growing when the levels get to a certain point. This is why juvies need large and frequent water changes. I suggest that you move them over and keep them there for 3-4 months until they are 4.5" or so (not including the tail length). Feed them high quality and nutritious foods and you will be amazed how much they grow from this and the large water changes you should be doing. I've seen a hobbyist document with pictures the growth rates of fish that were stunted (far worse shape than yours) and they turned out to be some very nice looking fish. He did this with large water changes and at least half a dozen feedings per day. I'm not sure if the number is right but I have in my mind that he fed up to 11 times per day. This is why a good quality flake like Ocen Nutrition Prime Reef will come in handy for your situation. It will help your juvies grow into the beautiful adults that are already in your tank.

 

[Arkangel77]

I have bin considering this exact thing. I have noticed one of the blue Diamonds showing sign's of stunting. I started with generally smaller fish but as some grew and I came across a deal on those adults I kinda just mixed them all together... I have bin tossed back and forth as to what I may do and I am considering using the 75 just as you said and then swapping it over for rams. DO you think the bare bottom is 100% necessary? I guess it would make clean up a lot easier. I actually have another 75 in the shed but I was gona try to sell it. O well - I think separating the smaller Discus is a Very good idea and I had no clue that the larger ones secreted hormones that would stunt the smaller ones???????

:uhoh:

Arkangel77

 

[bs6749]

Even the smaller ones will secrete hormones that will prevent the others from growing once the levels build up to that critical point. The BD's were the ones that I noticed were slightly stunted. They are a slow growing strain as it is and having them stunted makes it that much harder for them to obtain a nice shape.

IMO it is necessary to have a bare bottom tank since the water changes are much easier to do. I have potted plants in my bare bottom discus growout tank. That way some of the nitrates will still be absorbed and more O2 can get into the water.

The rams would do fine in a 55g. I'd actually prefer 2 pairs in a 55g rather than a 75g since they don't need that extra 6 inches of tank depth. Discus would benefit much more from the 6 inches than the rams would. They are fine at 20g per pair. I've spawned my before in 10g tanks by themselves. Many breeders use 10g tanks for rams.

 

[Arkangel77]

Thank you for the info - I hate Bare Bottom tanks But maybe I will try it. Might be OK with some plant's and YEP its the Blue D's that I was recently noticing were not looking great. They were TINNY when I first got them. I will get them outa there ASAP. Thank you for the advice - I do aprechiate it!

Arkangel77

 

[Arkangel77]

PS - I forgot to mention that I tried to take a pic of the MOON lights last night but my cheep camera is not gona cut it. The moon lights put out such dim light the camera does not see anything. It is a very nice look, wish I could get a pic for you all to see.


Arkangel77

 

[pinkertd]

The thought that discus secret hormones to keep other discus from growing has never been proven. Stunting is either a result of genetics and/or inadequate diet and growing conditions....period. If you move your smaller discus out to give them a chance to reach their full potential.....its about the food, food, food, food. Feed them a rich diet, lots of it, often (6X/day) and keep the water clean as you can. See what happens. If it's genetics, they'll get a bit fatter.

 

[bs6749]

The thought that discus secret hormones to keep other discus from growing has never been proven. Stunting is either a result of genetics and/or inadequate diet and growing conditions....period. If you move your smaller discus out to give them a chance to reach their full potential.....its about the food, food, food, food. Feed them a rich diet, lots of it, often (6X/day) and keep the water clean as you can. See what happens. If it's genetics, they'll get a bit fatter.

If it's genetics, they might not get fatter, and they might not eat much at all. Some discus can have a higher metabolism and may never get fat, while others may have smaller stomachs and will be constantly looking for food (spending energy) and won't grow much. Also, there are many experts that would disagree with you, including Jack Wattley and Andrew Soh and other hobbyists with decades of experience with these fish. Jack has done many experiments on this and has come to the conclusion that there is a "growth inhibiting toxin" secreted by the alpha male which prevents the others from growing. What's more is that when this alpha male was removed, another alpha male took it's place very quickly and sometimes surpassed the size of the initial alpha male. These experiments were done with fry from the same spawn (to rule out genetics as the cause) and with food in excess. There will be a standard normal distribution (bell shaped curve) seen in the growth of a large spawn. Some will be runts, others will be giants. When you start to see the mean shift you can notice that something is at play. The experiments rule out food and genetics. The frequent water changes that show phenomonal growth rates in the fish show that there is something in the water itself inhibiting the growth of the fish. When the alpha male was removed he stopped secreting this hormone and it allowed others to grow and one to become the new alpha. It's a pretty simple and straight-forward concept. Often, the simplest answer is the correct one.

 

[Star_Rider]

interesting but

does the 'test' take into consideration food consumption. while the hormone in the water is theory
often over looked is the competition for food and territorial issues that result from more dominant fish.

ie the alpha male may eat more or prevent other less aggressive fish to get to the food.

I am not totally convinced on the 'hormone' theory.
but i am sure that competition and room are contributing factors.

btw removal of the alpha male in the above situation would reduce competition and allow others to get food.

 

[bs6749]

btw removal of the alpha male in the above situation would reduce competition and allow others to get food.

That might be a reasonable assumption, but discus form a hierarchy, and they all know who is #1, #2, ... and last in line. When #1 leaves there may be a power struggle between #2 and #3 for the new #1 spot, but nobody is going to get more food when it is fed in excess.

 

[Star_Rider]

but dominant fish may inhibit other fish from getting food.

discus are not the only cichlid that form hierarchy.

Angels will do similar and when not breeding will school.

the fact that some fish are small due to hormones is hard to prove when only some fish in the tank are affected.

in my tank I have mixed sizes of discus.. with several larger ones and several smaller ones.

what makes me not believe hormones as an issue it how only 1-2 are affected .

leading me to suspect genetics or competition.

the hormones would have a broad affect and affect all but the largest fish.

which is where this is hard to believe when , again. only 1-2 fish are actually smaller.