Ich?

[as40]

Sorry for the long post, but couldn't help writing after reading LMOUTHBASS's post about ich...

I've been wondering about this for a while now, as I've been stocking my tank gradually over the past few weeks now...
I had a couple of clown loaches when I started out. One gradually "thinned" out to almost nothing, and stopped swimming. I actually thought he was dead until I netted him to remove him from the tank. He stirred, but not much at all. I didn't have the heart to keep him in the tank, suffering, so I euthanized him. The whole process from purchase to death only took about a week. My other loach developed white spots the very next day, which looked suspiciously like ich (though he only had a few spots on him). I seperated him immediately in hopes of preventing contamination to the rest of my tank, though I've read that by the time the spots appear it may already be too late. Well, long story short, my other loach died, but my main tank looked fine. Still does, except today (almost one week exactly from the death of the other loach) I noticed what looks like a couple of tiny white spots on one of my ottos.

I'm not sure if I have ich in my tank or not. :shake: Anybody know what else it could be? I've heard there are other things that could cause this.

I would go ahead and treat my tank for ich, but I have live plants in there, and I've heard they don't like salt or medications. Also, I have neons in there, which I've heard aren't very tolerant of salt. I'm currently running my tank at around 80 degrees, and have been doing 15% water changes twice a week. Thanks for any suggestions or advice anyone can give.

[OrionGirl]

It does sound like ich. The difficulty in dealing with ich comes from not understanding the parasites life cycle. Ich is a multi-stage parasite, which means that it's life cycle is three stages--and that only one of these stages is affected by medication. While cysted and while attached to the fish, the parasite is protected from medication. The free-swimming tomites can be killed. The life cycle is temperature dependent, meaning the temp of the tank dictates how quickly the parasite moves through these stages.

In you tank, the clowns most likely introduced the parasite. Before removing the last clown, some cycsts dropped off and were in the substrate. Once these hatched, hordes of tomites went searching for a fish to host in. Some fish are resistant to ich, and many fish can tolerate a low level of infection without problems. Most tomites host within the gills, so are not visible to most inspections. If the fish becomes infected with 'too' many parasites, it's health and behavior suffer.

For treatment, I use salt and raised temp. Get the temp up to at least 85. I've used salt on a variety of loaches, ancistrus and scaleless fish and tetras with no problems. The key is to gradually introduce the salt, and then maintain those levels for 3-6 weeks after the last visible sign of ich.

[as40]

Hmm... Thanks for the recommendations. Still a couple questions though. :)

The higher temps and salt won't hurt my live plants?

How gradually should I raise both the salt levels and the temperature?

Gosh I hate ich! :sick:

[OrionGirl]

All my tanks are planted, and I've never had a problem from adding salt. The amount of salt being added really is not enough to cause a problem--it barely even registers on a hydrometer. 1 tablespoon per gallon takes the tank up to about 1.004 specific gravity--approximate, because the volume of salt will change with humidity. This level is just barely outside the 'fresh' category, barely brackish, and no where close to marine (1.022-1.025, for comparison).

My method for tanks larger than 10 gallons is to increase temp by 2 degrees each time. The heater goes off, and I bump it up another 2 degrees. For adding salt, I dissolve the 2-3 tablespoons of salt into a quart of tank water, then pour that in. Repeat hourly until the desired level has been added. Replace salt as needed during water changes, and be sure to add FW topoff if you have lots of evaporation.

[as40]

Okay, thanks... :)

Let me just make sure for the salt this is right:

1 tablespoon per gallon? :confused:

I just got home from work, all the fish are active and alive (cross your fingers folks!), and I just raised the temperature to 82 from 80. Tomorrow I was going to do a 15% water change. I'll add the salt then, but I was thinking, as you said OrionGirl, of adding it slowly.

So far none of the other fish have spots that I've noticed, so the outbreak isn't too bad yet... Maybe I can nip this in the bud before there really is an outbreak.

I just don't want to stress the fish any more, so hopefully the raise in temp/water change won't push them too much... Okay, I'll stop rambling, sorry. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your help!

(edit: I'll also raise the temp 2 degrees more before bed-time. Don't want to do it TOO quickly)

[GoLdFiSh_GrL]

Well... it's actually 1 tblspns per every 5 gallons. But if you do resolve to medication (since the heat and salt thing doesn't always work), you can always try Rid-Ich by Kordon. It worked for me in maximum 3 days! But the treatment says you have to treat 3 days after last visible sign... owell... I guess it must be for the bacteria that got into the gills or something. Hope this helps! :D

[OrionGirl]

I use 1 tablespoon per gallon. And you must treat for longer than 3 days after the last sign, as there are cysts lying in the substrate that are not killed by salt or medication. It has nothing to do with bacteria, and everything to do with understanding the parasites life cycle.

[RTR]

The heat and salt treatment has always, without fail, worked for me - which is a lot more than can be said for ANY commercial med for Ich treatment. The heat (85F) alone would do it. But the salt is good backup.

I am more conservative than OG in that I hold for 10 days after the last visible symptom, then start weaning the salt and temp levels down slowly. I also use a bit less salt, 1 to 1 1/2 teaspoons per gallon actual volume.

But I do agree very strongly with OG that understanding the parasite's life cycle (including the fact that the peferred site for attachment is the gills - so you will never be able to see it there), and that chronic, subclinical infections are common in tanks if you do not totally eradicate it. I have not had an outbreak of Ich in my displays in >20 years, including three extended power outages this year to date, the last of which dropped tank temps to the low to mid-60s. Salt and heat works, without fail, if you do it properly.

The QT tanks in which I normally do this are BTW, planted. No harm is done to the plants during the treatment.

[OrionGirl]

:D I actually maintain the salt for 3 weeks after the last symptom, then quit replacing salt during water changes.

[as40]

Okay! Thank you all very much! The temp. raise went well last night, though due to the "cold" weather we're experiencing right now at night it didn't heat it as high as I would have liked (84 on the heater, around 80-82 in the tank!!!), but hopefully while I am at work right now it was warmer during the day. I'm going to raise it again by a degree when I get home, so the setting on the heater will be 85! When I get home in two hours I will also do the water change with the salt added to the new water.

Once again, thanks, and I'll update once I see some results!

[RTR]

OK, so OG is even more conservative than I am - which is a really serious symptom! :rolleyes: