ICK Treatment

[JPKeenan]

OK, I have a white spot or two on a fish in one of my tanks. The white spots only look like they are effecting one scale. One fish has 2 of them on his/her back. If it is ICK I wanna take care of it before it infects the other fish.

Just to be on the safe side I got some ICK treatment. On the bottle it says to remove the carbon from the filter when using the treatment.

Both my filters (on both tanks) have the "sleeve" (the filter packs).

Would I need to remove them and run the filters without the carbon packs for the day or two it says to let the medicine run it's course?

Thanks for the help.

[MTiffany]

You need to remove activated carbon when treating with most medications, otherwise the activated carbon pulls the medication right out of the water.

So, yes, if the instructions that came with the medication tell you to remove the carbon then remove the carbon.

[gmh]

It sounds like you bought some Quick Cure? It will not wipe out the ich in two days as it claims. The spots may or may not disappear after a couple of days but the ich will still be present in the tank for several more days, depending on the water temperature. What you could do is use the meds for a couple of days and then do a big water change and go with a salt/ heat treatment and continue that untill the spots have disappeared a total of at least three days.

[angyles]

whatever brand of meds you got, I would increase the heat in the tank a bit to speed up the life cycle of the ich and make sure you don't have a re-infestation.

[JPKeenan]

Once again thanks for the all the help.

Should hopefully have some decent pics of the tanks come monday or tuesday. I am working on some things :naughty:

Got some ideas looking at some of the DIY stuff on this and other sites, and the lack of decorations and hiding spots in the 30g tank got me started on a project :bling:. I just wanted to double check some stuff first to make sure they are fishy safe.

[JPKeenan]

Had a fish seem to be suffering from "drunkenness"....

...I took out my filter pack (the "foam" with the carbon in it) and have the meds running through an "empty" filter. I think it said to repeat treatment for a few days... I am wondering if the water chemistry will go all wonkie without having the carbon in it that long.

[Jennie Beth]

With the carbon filter out, do you have no filter media at all in the filter? If so, does that mean your tank has to cycle again? Perhaps the fish are reacting to water being all out of wack with no bacteria in the filter? Edit: I have removed the carbon from a sleeve filter, rinsed it well, and used it empty while medicating. Meds seemed to work just fine, and I still had some filtration going.

Jen

[JPKeenan]

The one filter has no other media inside it but the foam/carbon envelope.

The other has a coarse plastic "scrubby" (looks a bit like the stuff you scrub non-stick pots and pans with).

The directions on the bottle says to cycle/change the water after 2 or 3 days (which is when I would put the filter/carbon packs back in).

Except for the one fish that was acting sick before the meds they all seem to be doing fine after 12 hours with no carbon in the filter.

EDIT: I am still running the filters without the carbon as well as the air stones, to keep the water aerated as well as to keep circulation going.

[Rbishop]

If you are not certain of what ails them..you shouldn't be treating at all....

[JPKeenan]

If you are not certain of what ails them..you shouldn't be treating at all....

There is a fish in both tanks that have one or two white scales that I thought might be the start of ick. What gets me is that the two fish are not rubbing against things. And can;t really get a good picture.

[Rbishop]

There are other illnesses that are white and do not respond to ich meds. And really, if it is ich, all you need is table salt and raise the temp.

A picture would help immensely.

[JPKeenan]

There are other illnesses that are white and do not respond to ich meds. And really, if it is ich, all you need is table salt and raise the temp.

A picture would help immensely.

The white spots are hard to get in a pic. I tired. I think the guy at the fish store might be right about them just being nicks or scrapes. They have not exhibited any other symptoms (such as rubbing against things to try to scratch themselves). Also the spots have not gotten larger or multiplied.

I added the salt and raised the temp a little bit, drained 50% of both tanks and added fresh water, did the tests....

20g = pH 7.8 * Ammonia .25-.50 * Nitrite 0 * Nitrate 20
30g = pH 7.4 * Ammonia 1 * Nitrite 0 * Nitrate 5

The 30g I have only had running (with fish) for a week. I had one die (out of 7 initial fish).

I just changed the water, like I said and took the test about 2-3 hours after a 50% water change. I know some of the levels are a bit off, ammonia should be at 0, but either hasn't run through the filter enough, or the water conditioner rendered the result a bit askew. I do have 1 fish in the 20g tank exhibiting a swim bladder problem, but about an hour after the water change s/he was a bit more active than before the change.

[mel_20_20]

May we ask a few questions to help us know more about your tanks. We can better help you that way.

Answers to these questions for both tanks. (You've given some of the details, but more is needed)

Size of tank.
How long set up.
Number of fish and kinds of fish.
Parameters: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, gh, kh.
What kind of testing equipment do you use? Strips, or liquid testing kit.
Water change schedule: frequency and amount of water removed and replaced.
What water conditioner, to remove chlorine and chloramine.
Type of Filtration.
Is the tank heated? What temperature do you keep the tank?
Feeding schedule and type of food.
Plants and substrate.

The answers to those questions will help us be able to help you.

I think your tanks have not cycled yet. This is the process by which your tanks develop the beneficial bacteria needed to break down the ammonia into nitrites, and then the nitrites into nitrates.

Once the beneficial bacteria are in your tank, usually in the substrate, on decor and plants, but primarily in your biofilter media, the sponge-like thing you described in your filter. That part of the filter you don't want to replace or clean too vigorously. The bacteria start to grow there, but it takes time.

In the meantime, you need to do frequent water changes to keep your ammonia and then nitrites as low as possible. Certainly below .25 but at 0 is really best.

You need to do your testing of your water parameters with a liquid testing kit, such as API Master test kit. The strips are unreliable and give false readings all the time.
You won't really know what the true parameters are in your tank with strips.

A good water conditioner that is praised by most of the experienced fishkeepers here on AC is Prime. It removes chlorine and chloramines but also detoxifies the ammonia and nitrites for about 24 hours after dosing the tank.

This is HUGE!! As a noobie, I had frantic emergency water changes, often, when I discovered spikes of ammonia and/or nitrites, sometimes late at night or some other terribly inconvenient time.

With Prime, if you discover a spike you can do the emergency dose, which is 5 times the usual dose, and it will keep your fish safe until you can more conveniently do the water change, but you must do it and within 24 hours of the emergency dose.

You must test your water daily, sometimes twice a day, and respond to readings of ammonia and then nitrites with big frequent water changes, as much and as often as needed to bring the ammonia and nitrites down to 0 or close.

Your fish really suffer if you have ammonia and/or nitrites in the tank. It hits them really hard, causing stress and even suffering, and their immune systems take a beating, leaving them susceptible to infection; bacterial and/or parasitic.

Some of the things happening sound like water quality issues due to the tanks not being cycled and therefore not having the bacteria needed to breakdown the toxic byproducts of your fish peeing and pooing, and the decay of leftover food, etc.

Pristine water is needed and water changes are what will help keep your fish healthy.

[JPKeenan]

Size of tank.


20

How long set up.


5+ months

Number of fish and kinds of fish.


(20) 1 Chinese Algae Eater - 1 painted fruit tetra - 3 zebra danio - 3 tiny algae eaters (need to find species) - 3 tiger danio -3 glo-fish (which I transferred to the other tank) - some snails
(30) 2 mickey mouse platey - 3 zebra danio - 1 small algae eater
added to the 30g tank today +3 mickey mouse platey + 3 sunburst plateys (transferred from other tank) 3 glo-fish

Parameters: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, gh, kh.


(20) am .25-.50 nitrite 0 nitrate 20 ph 7.8
(30) am 1 nitrite 0 nitrate 5 ph 7.4
my test kit does not have gh and kh

What kind of testing equipment do you use? Strips, or liquid testing kit.


api freshwater master test kit

Water change schedule: frequency and amount of water removed and replaced.


last change was about 3 hours before I tested. (both tanks)
Average about once every other week, between 30%-50% of water replaced.

What water conditioner, to remove chlorine and chloramine.


Tetra Aqua AquaSafe brand.

Type of Filtration.


(20) HOB Aqueon
(30) HOB Aqua-Tech

Is the tank heated? What temperature do you keep the tank?


(20) Heated "auto-magic" themostat on it average about 74 degree F
(30) Heated, it has been running in the high 80's but now leveling down to the middle 70's

Feeding schedule and type of food.


twice a day, floating flakes and sinking pellets (both tanks)


Plants and substrate.


no plants, gravel substrate (both tanks)
(30) 3 plants



OK and this is a super newbie question. I have been adding the right amount of conditioner. I have been adding it to the containers I put the water in, before putting the water in the tank.... Should I just dump X amount of conditioner in the tank (when drained) and then add the tap water?

I hope that the water change helped. Like I said the one sick fish seems to have gotten a bit of life back but still seems like it's swim bladder is messed up. Before it was "drunk swimming" and very lethargic, now at least it looks like some activity has come back into it's little body.

[mel_20_20]

I'll answer your questions first, then I'll have some more for you.

Whether to add the conditioner to the tank or to the bucket of water before you add it back:

So far, I'm using a siphon to remove and then adding back using buckets. I treat the water in the bucket, matching the tank water temperature carefully, and I add the dose for the whole tank volume, not just the water I'm putting back in. Be sure and dose for your whole tank.

Some people do water changes using a python siphon system that allows them to run water into the tank right out of the tap after they've siphoned out the appropriate amount. They pour the full tank dose into the tank and then refill. The conditioner takes care of chlorine and chloramines as the water comes into the tank, though I worry whether it is instantaneous and if my occupants could get a little chlorine before it's neutralized.

I think most people doing that seem to have no problems with chlorine so it must do the job.

When I do get a Python siphon system I'll worry about that then, not now.

Regarding your tank issues:

I'm sure your fish feel better after the water change because you're removing the ammonia and other dissolved organic substances.

You really need to do more water changes, especially right now since your having cycling problems. I would do water changes as often and as big as needed to keep your parameters good.

This means: ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20 or less.
In an uncycled tank nitrates aren't usually a problem so I'm thinking either your tap water has nitrates, or more likely the 20 gallon was cycled and has bb (beneficial bacteria) but has been overwhelmed and you are having ammonia spikes due to excessive feeding, or you have been too aggressivley cleaning your filter, or outright removing the biofilter portion.

What do you do when you clean your filter?

The 30 gallon is definitely not cycled, unless you seeded it with squeezings from an established tank. That's why you see such large amounts of ammonia and no nitrites. You have some nitrates in that tank too, so I'm thinking you probably do have nitrate in your tap.

Do a test of your tap for a baseline reading. ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph.

Follow the instructions of the nitrate test to the letter. The #2 bottle is supposed to be shaken vigorously before used, and then the vial shaken vigorously after all drops are added to the vial.

You have to shake the bejeebers out of the bottle and then the vial. Some say you should shake the bottle twice as long as directed, before adding to the water in the vial. I've read that many people don't get accurate readings because they fail to shake everything up good enough.

Nitrates aren't a problem here, and testing the tap for it is just so we can know if you have nitrates in your tap. It's a factor to consider when analysing your issues.

Though you've had the 20 gallon up for 5 months there's a significant level of ammonia and no nitrites which indicate either it has never completed the nitrogen cycle, or perhaps you've experienced mini-cycles. That's why your nitrate readings are a bit puzzling since normally nitrates don't start to appear until your tank is nearly through the cycle.

If I were you, I'd test the water everyday and jump on water changes if you find any detectable ammonia or nitrites in the water. After a change, test the water. If it's still there, do another change.

You may have to test and do water changes several times a day to get things under control, and then test every day and do water changes as needed.

Disease and infection, from whatever pathogen or parasite, are usually the result of poor water quality. Levels of ammonia and nitrites cause stress and suffering and have a heavy impact on the immune systems of your fish. Your guys are counting on you to keep their world pristine.

I agree that you should hold off on meds until you know what's going on for sure, and, most likely, aggressively providing them with pure clean water is going to work wonders.

[JPKeenan]

the 30g spiked from a 1 to a 2 after a day... I did notice when I changed the water that there was a ton of uneaten food in the gravel.

I am in the process of checking the tap water for a base line as I type. Baseline for tap water is:
pH 7.4
Ammonia .25-.50 (was a shade in-between the two colors)
Nitrate >.25 (once again between the two colors)
Nitrate 5

I am going to cycle both tanks again.

I could not find Prime. I did pick up some (both from API) Stress Coat and Stress Zyme+. The Stress Coat looks like a decent water conditioner till I can find some Prime. It claims to remove chlorine, chloramines, and ammonia from tap water.

I know some people swear by and other curse the bactria in a bottle (Stress Zyme+), but I figured if the 30g is as out of whack as people are saying it might be worth a shot.

Going to check the 20g, shouldn't need a change. Then test and change out the 30g.

I got a used 20g tank I need to seal (hey it was free). And will start that on a week or two of fish-less cycling.

[JPKeenan]

I'll answer your questions first, then I'll have some more for you.

Whether to add the conditioner to the tank or to the bucket of water before you add it back:

So far, I'm using a siphon to remove and then adding back using buckets. I treat the water in the bucket, matching the tank water temperature carefully, and I add the dose for the whole tank volume, not just the water I'm putting back in. Be sure and dose for your whole tank.

Some people do water changes using a python siphon system that allows them to run water into the tank right out of the tap after they've siphoned out the appropriate amount. They pour the full tank dose into the tank and then refill. The conditioner takes care of chlorine and chloramines as the water comes into the tank, though I worry whether it is instantaneous and if my occupants could get a little chlorine before it's neutralized.

I think most people doing that seem to have no problems with chlorine so it must do the job.

When I do get a Python siphon system I'll worry about that then, not now.



I have been using a 2.5g plastic water jug to replace the water. I think the Aqua Safe says 1tsp per 10 gallons. I use a 1/4 teaspoon per jug.

So if I take 50% of the water out of my 20g tank (just an example) I should treat the water for the whole 20g and not just the 10g I am replacing?

[mel_20_20]

Your baseline for your tap was right out of the tap? Not from your tank? That's incredible that you have all that in your tap water. Please clarify for me. The results you just gave me didn't come out of the tank water, but right out of tap before you added it to the tank?

[JPKeenan]

Your baseline for your tap was right out of the tap? Not from your tank? That's incredible that you have all that in your tap water. Please clarify for me. The results you just gave me didn't come out of the tank water, but right out of tap before you added it to the tank?

The last reading I gave was straight out of the tap, untreated.

I am right now running the test on both tanks and will have them in about 10 mins or so.

I set up a little microsoft excel file to track the water in the tanks and when I do water changes.

[JPKeenan]

wondering if this will show up right:

Date Tank Cycle length pH Ammonia Nitrite

8/2/2009 tap from tap
pH 7.4 Ammonia .25-.50 Nitrite >.25 Nitrate 5
8/2/2009 20g
pH 7.4 Ammonia >.25 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 20
8/2/2009 30g
pH 7.4 Ammonia 2 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5

[mel_20_20]

I love high tech operations, lol.

And, yes, dose for the full 20 not just the 10 you put back in.

If that's your tap.... it shouldn't be.

[mel_20_20]

Yes, dose for the full 20 not just the 10 you put back in.

If that's your tap.... it shouldn't be.


Wait, what do you mean tap from tap?
Also, what do you mean when you say "cycle length"?

Cycle means the process that takes days and weeks for the ammonia from the fish pee and poo and decayiing food to finally cause the ammonia loving bacteria to flourish and start breaking down the ammonia into nitrite.

Then, the nitrites have to be in the tank a while to encourage and feed the nitrite loving bacteria that must flourish and eat it up and convert it to nitrates. This takes time.

Cycling is not doing water changes. It takes a lot of time, unless you know someone with an established healthy tank that has a boat load of beneficial bacteria and will give you some filter squeezings or a piece of their biofilter to put in your foam/sponge/media portion of your filter. The bacteria-in-a-bottle does not usually have live bacteria because they are sensitive to heat and those products are shipped and stored in less than desirable circumstances.

Your 30 gallon needs an immediate water change to get that ammonia down from 2.0 to as close to .25 or less if you can, but lord, I don't know with your tap water... you're going to have a heck of a time keeping things safe in your tank until you get a boat load of bb yourself.

I'm wondering if your test kit is out of date or otherwise bonkers. I think I'd take a sample of tank water from each tank and go to the lfs and have them test it to see if their findings match yours. You did say they use liquid testing, right. I'd do that for sure to see what they get.

At any rate, once your tanks are cycled and have a healthy colony of the beneficial bacteria they should be able to handle the ammonia from your tap and fish, as long as you don't over feed, and you practice good tank maintenance and do regular water changes with vacuuming of the substrate to keep the gunk and decaying matter from building up. You have to be careful when you vacuum if there is a lot of gunk in the gravel. Too vigorous vacuuming and stirring it up can cause a spike, too.

Vacuum an area in your tank, say one third or one half, when you do a water change and then the other half, or third, on the next water change and so on.

Even if your results are accurate and you are getting those readings from your tap, once your tanks are fully cycled you should have enough beneficial bacteria in your tanks to handle the ammonia that your fish produce in addition to the ammonia in your tap water. You will definitely want to continue to use a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia, and I'm afraid you're going to need to monitor your parameters closely, daily, even after the tanks are cycled, and do water changes as needed to keep the tank healthy.

[JPKeenan]

I did a 50% change and am going to wait a few hours before testing again. Makes sure the water and stuff goes through the filter a time or two. I treated the water in the jugs as I was filling them and added enough conditioner for 15g (the water that was left in the tank).

I changed the one cell to water change date/time. I should be going back this coming weekend.

I did end up over feeding them and had a huge amount of poo on the bottom (poop and uneaten food) so that might be the reason for the spike.

The one tank is semi-healthy so maybe putting some fluff in there for a few days and letting the bact grow might help.

I'm still a bit of a newbie so I do appropriate the help.

After running around and doing fishy stuff all day I need to grab me some food.

The used tank I got is a bit of a mess but will be cool taking pics as I clean it up. Want to try to set up a how-to PDF for it.

[JPKeenan]

woot... looks like the 30g tank has gone down to between .25 and .50

[Rbishop]

is that tap pH reading on a sample that set out overnight in a shallow dish?

[JPKeenan]

is that tap pH reading on a sample that set out overnight in a shallow dish?

No the tap water reading were straight out of the faucet. Bathroom sink, but I fill the jugs out of the tub faucet.

[JPKeenan]

I did a 50% water change in the 30g yesterday, tested today.

pH 7.2
Ammonia .5
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5

Going to let it settle and test when I wake up tomorrow.

I also left a piece of "fluff" in my 20g filter and transferred it over with the water change, as well as a plastic decoration.

Testing both tanks again in the morning to see any changes for the water change.