Newbie Starting here!

[Gujustud]

Um. Wow! Thats all I gotta say.

Background: 23/Male. Till I was 5 years old, I remember in our old house that we had a huge fish tank. I'm pretty sure it was freshwater, and I remember my parents having to empty the fish out, and clean the whole tank out, every so often.

Fast foward a few years, and here we are today. No fish tank in the house since, but I know my mom's still always wanted one. With Xmas coming up I thought it would be a nice idea. But what to get? Fresh water? Salt water? Who will take care of it?

So for the last week I've been browsing several sites on the internet. Made a stop at Pet Cetra a few days ago, spent about 20 mins browsing there. Then today I stopped by Big Al's, and spent over a hour chatting with the manager there about starting up a tank.

Now, it seems the more I think about it, the more I want to get a tank (not so for my mom, but for myself! lol).

So the deal was for my bro/sis to pitch in for the gift. Obviously I'll be putting more in, as I may take up the hobby slightly, but I know my mom will really love it.

I'm about 85% sure, that we'll be going the salewater way. They seem to have a really good startup kit for $350cdn for a 29g tank. I should of written down all the details, but I'm sure I'll drop by again for more information.

I guess what surprised me the most was the amount of people who are involved in this. I never thought that having a fish tank would be so much a "hobby" but it certainly is. I use to think that people were crazy for modding their cars and computers, and here I am doing the same today. And now I see the same with fish tanks and so forth. Wow!

Seems to be a very cool lil, or big world in the water. Can't wait to jump into it!

[Cearbhaill]

Not to be a grinch- but I couldn't begin to absorb all that is necessary to buy components in one week- it took me six months!

And pets as a gift are a notoriously bad idea if you have not checked with the recepient to make absolutely sure she is ready to take on such an expensive, demanding hobby.

I would certainly hold off on any "starter kit" you come across as it is quite likely that many of the items included will not be what you want in the long term.

Success in this hobby comes from understanding what you are doing and requires more than a bit of study. Most folks recommend that you narrow down what you want to keep before even doing your research. Are you interested in a reef tank? Fish only? Want corals? What type?

Everything you buy will reflect on what you intend to keep. Purchasing in haste almost guarantees having to repurchase again- sooner rather than later.

Maybe find your Mom a good book on marine tanks and see if the interest is really there? A great book list here. (http://www.marinescene.com/category.asp?cid=19)

I'd start with The Conscientous Marine Aquarist.
It will whet her appetite and then you can go shopping with her if she decides to take on the responsibility.

[mogurnda]

Gujustud,

I have to agree with Cearbhaill. First, you will regret trying to get all the components together in a week. Second, starter kits are rarely assembled very thoughtfully.

I really want to encourage you to get into the hobby. It can be a whole lot of fun, and a huge learning experience. However, to make a marine tank work, so that you don't give up in disgust when something goes wrong, requires some homework.

One possibility is to decide on a tank size (as big as you can afford, most people will agree), buy the tank, and place it as a standing IOU for the full setup. Like with a big bow on it or something. Then you can learn and assemble over the next few months, without haste.

Alternatively, start with a freshwater tank. They can be quite pretty, and the parameters are a little more straightforward. It's still not like buying a toaster, but it's a more sure bet.

[Gujustud]

Thank you for your reply!

We'll over the last several years I know my mom has talked about getting a fish tank. I know herself, she hasn't really read up regarding it, and she always thinks back to when we had our first fish tank, and how hard it was to maintain (this was about 18 years ago). I believe technology has changed for the better since then, so it is somewhat more easier.

I've been reading a ton lately, and yesterday, I even picked up a book at chapters, and so far I'm 1/2 thru the book (good thing I work for my dad so I can waste time at work ;) )

As much as the gift is going to be for my mom, I'd say its also one for myself. My birthday comes up shortly after xmas (jan 2) so I figured it would be a combined gift for myself and her xmas present (Yes I know it makes no sense whatsoever lol).

I found out about the kit I was "going" to get. It was the eclipse 29g. The fellow I talked with at the LFS said he has 15 years of experience, so I believe he gave me good info. As I slowly get into the hobby, I'd rather stick with one store rather than use several, just for the fact of getting to know who i'm dealing with, and so at the same time they understand myself.

Again, i've been reading a galore of information. I've been reading how a LOT of people have started nano-reefs. I know they are harder to keep going however.

As much as I'd love to have a coral reef/fish, I know that with the eclipse systems the lighting isin't good enough, and you need to get a retrofit kit for them. Thats why I was thinking about getting LR and fish just to start off. Then maybe several years down the road, if everything goes well, I may look into maybe another tank with coral. (note: several years down the road).

I know this is something to NOT rush into. That is a big thing I've read everywhere, and I've come across some horror stories, and I really don't want to fall into those shoes.

I'm on that edge of saltwater/freshwater. I was told about some other fish (african chilids sc?) that are freshwater, but are great fish to have. However I think for myself, I'd really

1) regret not starting a salt water
2) like to be up for a challenge (not saying freshwater is not a challenge)

[OrionGirl]

Okay, so if I'm hearing you right you are not expecting to have a tank with water and fish by Christmas. That's good!

I don't know what book you have, but the ones mentioned above, as well as A Simple Guide to Keeping a Marine Aquarium are well worth the money. It's a great place to start, and will set you up for success.

On the tank--before you buy, decide what fish you want. That 29 will really limit you in terms of how many fish you can get, but also in what fish will survive in there. If you want a pair of clowns and a few smaller gobies, that's fine. Tangs, lions, triggers, groupers, and most angels will be off the list. I think many people end up very disappointed with small tanks because they can't get some of the more commonly available SW fish--even though the little guys are just as interesting and beautiful.

So--I'd make another trip to the store. Spend more time looking at the fish than at the equipment and decide what really catches your eye. Then, research those animals and decide if you can meet their needs.

[Sregnar35]

You may also want to check your local want-ads or ebay for tanks and supplies. Yeah I know, used items as gifts is tacky, but it doesn't hurt to save 2 or 3 hundred either. I got my 75g with a top and light strip for $20, so they are out there. Also you mentioned that some of the items in the pre-packaged setup you were looking at is either not enough or not right for you, so you will be paying for items you don't want/need. Just a thought.

[jhrivera]

Hey Gujustud.

I think that an Eclipse system is the wrong way to go for a Saltwater tank. I've read somewhere in this forum where Eclipse hoods keep your nitrates up (as with other filters i.e. canisters). If you really want to start up that saltwater tank, I would suggest you get as big a tank as you can get, some good lighting, a heater, a couple of powerheads, a good protein skimmer, a bunch of live rock, and some live sand. You'll probably end up spending a bit more money than that beginner setup, but you'll be grateful in the end. With that beginning system, you would probably have to get the better lighting, protein skimmer, powerheads, rock, heater, and sand anyways.

Just my 2 cents :)

[jhrivera]

OrionGirl, who is the author of "A Simple Guide to Keeping a Marine Aquarium?" I was doing a search on Amazon and can't seem to find the book. Also searched with google. Other titles such as "A Simple Guide to Marine Aquariums" came up. Is this the same book?

[OrionGirl]

Wups--you're right, I had the title wrong! It's the one by Jeffrey Kurtz. There's also a FW version by David Boruchowitz. Both are very good.

[Gujustud]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
Okay, so if I'm hearing you right you are not expecting to have a tank with water and fish by Christmas. That's good!

I don't know what book you have, but the ones mentioned above, as well as A Simple Guide to Keeping a Marine Aquarium are well worth the money. It's a great place to start, and will set you up for success.

On the tank--before you buy, decide what fish you want. That 29 will really limit you in terms of how many fish you can get, but also in what fish will survive in there. If you want a pair of clowns and a few smaller gobies, that's fine. Tangs, lions, triggers, groupers, and most angels will be off the list. I think many people end up very disappointed with small tanks because they can't get some of the more commonly available SW fish--even though the little guys are just as interesting and beautiful.

So--I'd make another trip to the store. Spend more time looking at the fish than at the equipment and decide what really catches your eye. Then, research those animals and decide if you can meet their needs.

Oh yeah, for sure no fish by xmas. Maybe new years, or near my bday.

I was searching around, and found a store close by http://www.aquafanatics.com. So I figure I'd drop by and pay them a visit. Again, great store. I spoke with the fellow there for about half hour. He also has the 29g eclipse tank, and also recommends it (2 stores so far).

He doesn't exactly have the full kit, only a biowheel. He worked out whatelse I'll need (I have the list in my car, I'll post it later). I got name brands for the items he mentioned and stuff, so I can post them here, and you can tell me if they are good or not.

He said they would give me their salt water to start to speed up the cycle. I'm not sure if this is good or not. Recommendations? Should I start my own water, or use theirs?

I'll be checking back with Big Al's and see if they are willing to work something else out than the full kit, as if you think I won't need it all, then I'd rather not get it all. Once I get all the specs down and stuff I'll be sure to post up.

Sregnar35: I'll be doing that tonight for sure. I'm sure I can find some good deals in the buy/sell.

As per lighting, and if I go with the eclipse, I know the lighting isin't the best. I'm lucky as I work at my dad's CNC Machine shop, so most likely what I would be doing is builing my own hood, custom fit, with lighting and all. But again, I probably won't go with coral to start.

[Gujustud]

Okay, here are some of the prices and stuff I was told from one store to start with: (all in canadian funds)

29 Gal tank $299 (Eclipse, with hood, lighting, and biowheel)
40lb sand $40
20lb LR $100
1 bag salt (Red Sea) $20
150W Maineland Deluxe Heater $46

I bet thats not everything you're looking for, but thats all I got written down for now. I'll be going back and back again and again for more and more information. My friends think I'm a freak for going to the LFS 3 times in a week+. Lol!

[Gujustud]

I figured I'd keep all my questions in this one thread then opening several.

The shop next to where I work does custom cabinets. They recently did our kitchen, and bathroom, when we did some renovations. Very small shop, only 2 guys work there, but I seem them on a daily basis. I was thinking instead of buying a stand for my tank, to get him to make me one.

Several reasons, 1) cheaper, 2) custom, 3) see #1.

Also I figure I could get him to make it nice and STRONG. Anything I should maybe mention when getting him to make the cabinet? It will be just a clean and simple 2 door type of table that the tank will sit/fit onto. Nothing on the top or sides.

[Gealcath]

What type of sand are you using? You can use normal sandbox play sand and can get a 50lb bag for only $4 at Home Depo, or if your REAL lucky you can find Southdown which is Aragonite playsand, its the "Holy Grail" of sand and is dirt cheap compared to spending $20 on buying Aragonite live sand. What i did was mix normal playsand with Aragonite live sand and it has been working great.


Also Instant Ocean is a good brand of salt, i tried red sea before and Instant ocean got better results.


But theres 1 thing about Biowheels, they are Nitrate Factories, the Aerobic bacteria eat Ammonia and Nitrites to make Nitrates at a faster rate then the Anerobic bacteria can break down the Nitrates into Nitrogen gas. For fish only a biowheel will be fine if theres enough live rock and good deep sand bed.

[OrionGirl]

I would not plan on having fish in the tank for at least a month after setting it up. You must cycle the tank first, and in a small tank, using any live fish will be a big problem (they'll probably die, and if they don't, you'll end up tearing the tank apart to remove them later).

I really, really think you should look at the fish options before buying a tank. A 29 will limit you to a few fish, in both numbers and in fish selections. Look at what you want to have before getting a tank that imposes those limits.

[Gujustud]

Gealcath:

Haven't picked out a type of sand yet. I'll run by the stores, and see what they recommend and get the brands.

OrionGirl: What do you mean by this?


(they'll probably die, and if they don't, you'll end up tearing the tank apart to remove them later).


Honestly, what I want to have is a fish/LR setup for now. I'd love to jump into coral, but its not something I know I should be getting into of the bat. I'd rather work slowly and have a fish/LR setup first, then maybe down the road once I save some money get a bigger tank and work from there. I really want to see if this is something I can do (which I'm sure I can! ;))

I'd probably like to have a bunch of LR and maybe a max of 4-5 fish for now. I think that should take up a fair amount of space in the 29g tank with room to breathe for the fish. If 4-5 is too much, I don't mind less.

Of course this is what I'm thinking about right now. I'm taking tons of info into consideration, specially that of all of you.

Thank you again for your help! Much apprecaited!

[Gujustud]

Originally posted by Gealcath
But theres 1 thing about Biowheels, they are Nitrate Factories, the Aerobic bacteria eat Ammonia and Nitrites to make Nitrates at a faster rate then the Anerobic bacteria can break down the Nitrates into Nitrogen gas. For fish only a biowheel will be fine if theres enough live rock and good deep sand bed.

Thats one question I had. If i'm sticking with fish only, will the biowheel be okay for now? Maybe something I can upgrade down the road?

[Gujustud]

Ordered Bob Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist book for $47cdn shipped!

[Gealcath]

For fish only, a Biowheel is fine as long as you have a DSB and Live rock, or cured live rock. For a reef aquarium, alot of corals and other inverts are very sensitive to Nitrate, in most cases its required to be 0. Most fish and fish only inverts can tolorate nitrate at around 40-80ppms, which is what the average biowheel does. It is possible to get 0 Nitrates using a Biowheel, but is hard to do. With regular water changes it shouldnt be a problem. Another thing high Nitrates does is feeds brown algae (which is considerd undesirable), since Nitrates are essentially plant food.

[oscarlvr]

hi, im a newbi to marine also but have kept freshwater for several years, why dont you get a gift certificate at big als as they ave a big boxing day sale every year you can save yourself 25 % more off your items, say hi to Olena for me(Bob), the cute blonde at the check out, good luck


rob

[OrionGirl]

What I meant about them dying is this: many people try cycling SW tanks with damsels. The high toxins experienced during cycling often kill the fish. Should any survive, damsels are very territorial and can be nasty tempered, so are not desirably for a small tank--they will kill other fish. So, they have to be removed and this usually entails tearing the tank apart.

Cycling the tank can take 6 weeks or more, but is a crucial step in having a successful tank.

[Gujustud]

Originally posted by Gealcath
For fish only, a Biowheel is fine as long as you have a DSB and Live rock, or cured live rock.

How deep would you recommend, and what type of sand? I've read that crushed coral is bad to use?

Down the road if I was to add some coral (we're talking several several months down the road), what should I look at into upgrading the biowheel to?


Originally posted by Gealcath
hi, im a newbi to marine also but have kept freshwater for several years, why dont you get a gift certificate at big als as they ave a big boxing day sale every year you can save yourself 25 % more off your items, say hi to Olena for me(Bob), the cute blonde at the check out, good luck

Which Big Al's store are you talking about? The one in Richmond?

In general I found their pricing a little higher than some other places. Do they work on their pricing at all?

[Gujustud]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
What I meant about them dying is this: many people try cycling SW tanks with damsels. The high toxins experienced during cycling often kill the fish. Should any survive, damsels are very territorial and can be nasty tempered, so are not desirably for a small tank--they will kill other fish. So, they have to be removed and this usually entails tearing the tank apart.

Cycling the tank can take 6 weeks or more, but is a crucial step in having a successful tank.

This is good to note. Both of the LFS said that after about 1 week, that I could add one damsel, as they have a higher tolerance to the changes during cycling. One of the stores did mention that they would give me their own salt water to start, as to speed up the cycling. Is this a good idea?

[OrionGirl]

A deep sand bed of at least 3 inches is enough to promote the oxidation of nitrates. For corals, you'd need upgraded lighting. There are a few that will be okay under NO, like mushrooms and some polyps, sponges--but most corals need at least 3-4 watts per gallon, and more is better. The biowheels can be removed easily, or just not added in the first place. Live rock and sand are the best filtration you can use.

Damsels are often used for cycling, and they will make it through, but still have burned gills and prone to disease. Not the best option, especially since they are so aggressive. Fishless cycling with cocktail shrimp is much better.

On buying the saltwater...Guess it depends. If they are giving you fresh, made up water, that's fine, though often not the cheapest option. If they are giving you water from their tanks, I would avoid it like the plague. Several reasons--first, water can transport parasites and disease. Second, it will import wastes, but no bacteria. The beneficial bacteria needed for processing ammonia and nitrites are not fee floating in the water column--they attach themselves to objects, like rock, glas, pumps, etc. Either way, you will need test kits for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and a good hydrometer or refractometer.

[oscarlvr]

yes the one in richmond. they do give deals if asked, see dan in the fishroom, he always looked after me very well on all my fish purchases, for the dsb, you can get those bags og aroginte, 30lbs bags, and like i mentioned buy them boxing day, a better price, avoid any water from them, all thier tanks are conected and 1 sick fish every tank gets whatever. and you dont want to introduce any thing in a new tank

rob

[Gujustud]

Good note on the sand bed. Regarding corals, looking at all the tank pictures on the internet, I think I'd love to get a few corals.

"okay, slow down!".

No really, I'd love to get some, but I also know that the hood doesn't support good lighting for a majority of coral out there. Thanks for noting what would be good to start off. I wouldn't mind adding at least 1 to the mix.

The Biowheel. So you really recommend not adding it all all? What keeps the water recirculating? Should I look at something else instead?

Hmm I'd rather not put a damsel in, if its going to get aggressive for whatever reason, and or put stress on the fish. So you recommend just picking up two shrimp, and throwing them in? I can get them cheap right off the dock near my house, since I live in a fishing area fairly cheap. Any specific type?

Saltwater. I'll be staying away from getting theirs then. It didn't dawn on me that bad stuff might come along with their saltwater. Plus I'd probably learn a lot more, but starting it off myself.

[Gealcath]

The fishless cycle using shrimp involves cocktail shrimp, as it decays it produces ammonia, which then gets broken down into nitrites and finally nitrates. Basically you need dead or decaying organic matter to start the cycle. But the bacteria wont grow unless theres ammonia present.

[Gujustud]

Originally posted by oscarlvr
yes the one in richmond. they do give deals if asked, see dan in the fishroom, he always looked after me very well on all my fish purchases, for the dsb, you can get those bags og aroginte, 30lbs bags, and like i mentioned buy them boxing day, a better price, avoid any water from them, all thier tanks are conected and 1 sick fish every tank gets whatever. and you dont want to introduce any thing in a new tank

rob

Cool! I think I know about the "cute" blond you were talking about.

When I first went, I spoke with Chris, who seemed to know what he was talking about. He gave me a wealth of information. I may stop by agian, just to chat, and get more info.

[Cearbhaill]

The Biowheel. So you really recommend not adding it all all? What keeps the water recirculating? Should I look at something else instead?
Sumps, closed loop systems, powerheads...

Like I said- you've lots of reading in front of you before you start buying :D

[Gujustud]

So I went back to Big Al's and spoke with the same guy I spoke with a few days ago.

He remembered everything, which i'm glad. I told him that I've been reading a ton more, and spoke of a bunch of stuff that made it sound like I knew what I was talking about (which I really did!!).

He admitted to me knowing more than the average joe starting off, and I told him that I was thinking about buying parts individually, rather than getting the full eclipse kit they had there.

I spent some time looking around, and figured I would go with another option.

32g tank (36x12x20). Its not as high as the eclipse which is better, as the eclipse was a lot higher, and from what we talked about, the higher it is, the futher the light has to travel if I go coral.

I will probably get a glass roof, and for lighting, we talked about getting a 36" 2 bulbs. I think he said he has a system (grr, forgot the name) that will give me 5w/gal. He said that is ideally what I should be looking for at prime. I figured I'll go that route, rather than upgrading down the road. I think he said that the price of the 5/gal lighting system would be around $280. (all pricing i've mentioned is in cdn funds)

I'm looking at getting either a 150 or 200w heater. I've been looking at either EboJager or Marineland.

He mentioned it would be good to get a skimmer, however I haven't looked into that. As oscarlvr said and also the guy at the store, I'm going to wait till boxing day/week. He said I'd be able to save more then.

This is what i'm looking at doing with my tank, to give you more info:

1) starting with LR/LS and fish.
2) maybe 3-5 months down the road, add in some mushroom coral (I hear they are slightly hardy, and better to start with).
3) go from there...

[Gujustud]

Well its been a while since I last posted. I should mention this was the first forums that I jumped aboard to get info, and want to thank everyone for your info you provided!

Well I finally started up and here are some pictures, but as a warning, its nothing superb. I'll post a few just to give a story line, however all my other pics are located here (http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/index.php?cat=9).

Quick specs: 38g, 36x12x20, 36" 1x96W 50/50, 200w ebojager, 802 powerhead w/ filter. 12lbs figi LR, 30lbs sugarsand. started dec 27th, restarted jan 2nd.

day 1 - 12lbs of LR. 30lbs of sugar sand. filled up the tank with some water and salt. cloudy? yes.
http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/albums/userpics/aquarium/normal_DSC03672.JPG

day 2 : dec 28th - filled all the way up. still cloudy
http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/albums/userpics/aquarium/normal_DSC03712.JPG

jan 2 - couldn't take the cloudyness, wasn't getting any better. got a filter for the powerhead, removed all the water, and sand. gave the sand a rinse, and started again. (pic from jan 3rd) difference made from the filter, and rinsing the sand.
http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/albums/userpics/aquarium/normal_jan2-cleanup03.JPG

first diy - wanted to make something while I wait for my cycle. made a cover for my tank at work. more pics (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=162543#post162543)
http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/albums/userpics/aquarium/diy/normal_DSC03731.JPG

jan 5 - tank as of today. got one little shrimp in there for the cycle (cocktail stuff).
http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/albums/userpics/aquarium/diy/normal_DSC03738.JPG

And thats it for now. Again check out my gallery (http://www.ditchmond.com/gallery/index.php?cat=9) for more pics.

[Gujustud]

btw, I took out the filter of the PH. I heard that taking it off, will help speed up the cycle.

[OrionGirl]

Looks like you're going along pretty well...The cover looks realy nice!

[K9Decoy]

I read the whole thread...great info for newbies to the hobby. Your tank is shaping up nicely. Very nice custom hood. Where do I order one! (j/k) Have you decided on fish yet?