Wild Caught Fish

[Aquarius0015]

I know that wild fish (clown loaches especially) are prone to parasites and other natural diseases. However, even if they were not, I would not want to purchase one for ecological reasons. Maybe the impact of the pet industry on the environment is hardly noticeable, but I would prefer to buy only peope-bred fish. I do not mean to pass judgement on those who do buy wild caught fish, this is just IMO.

So, does anyone know which fish I should avoid specifically? Besides clown loaches :) ?

[RTR]

Your job is do your own research to select captive bred fish over wild caught. I think you are seriously mistaken, so while you are doing that research, check out Project PIABA. Without the fish export business, the local exosystem would already have been destroyed. Certainly there are horror stories on the other side as well, but have you considered that all of today's commercially bred fish started their history as imports?

If you want to keep Noah's Ark tanks of chain store fish, certainly do captive bred. If you want to benefit the hobby long term, do independent research and learn how to breed currently wild-caught fish. The field is expanding rapidly - sometimes to the good of the hobby, sometimes to its detriment. Everything has positive and negative aspects, you get to select which side you support by your actions. Are you going to be a producer and expand the knowledge of the hobby, or just a consumer?

[Z Man]

Very well put RTR! Thank you! If it were not for wild caught fish, the hobby we know today would cease to exist. New species are being discovered daily and the only way we can be certain they will be around for years is to collect them and breed them. For some reason most people believe that all fish for sale in stores today are captive bred. That could not be farther from the truth.

[SayersWeb]

There are fish that are bred in the hobby today that no longer exist in nature. Here is one such species that was not discovered until 1992. If they had not been brought into the hobby they would be extinct today -
http://www.cichlidae.com/articles/a169.html

http://www.cichlidae.com/articles/a200/a169-01.jpg

[Dean]

They take salmon out of the ocean, it's basically the same thing.

[Aquarius0015]

Oy, I didn't mean to create controversy, but I see the other side a bit better now. I've just seen quite a few Animal Planet/National Geographic programs about how aquatic poachers are helping to destroy coral reefs by disrupting the delicate ecosystems. I know that applies to SW but I assumed something similar might be happening to FW environments, too.

Also, my first and strongest animal hobby is parrots. I know that many even today are captured from rainforests. A common method to capture parrots is to cut down the tree first and then collect survivors from the nest. Not only is this traumatic to the birds, the deforestation also hurts the ecosystem. Once again, I drew a parallel between capturing one type of animal from the wild to capturing FW fish.

I actually did consider the fact that all captive-bred species were originally caught in the wild. However, those fish were caught before my time, and if any damage was done, it is way in the past, and I could not possibly take any action to change the situation. However, by purchasing a wild caught fish, I run the risk of supporting (with the power of my wallet) unsavory business practices that are still in operation today.

As far as benefitting the hobby, that would be nice to do *someday.* Currently, I am a college student with limited space and limited money. My university, my roommate, and my parents would undoubtedly disapprove of me running a fish conservation program out of my room. I am talking about 12 gallons of tank or so. Besides, even if I had the time, money and space, I am too inexperienced at this point to figure out how to breed rare species, especially when hundreds of experienced hobbyists so far have not been able to.

Sorry if I upset anybody, but I have always been very passionate about animal rights (I was even vegetarian for a few years). For example, I am also concerned about product testing on animals, puppy mills, neutering/spaying, and most importantly choosing adoption from a shelter over buying pure-bred from a store. Look up the astrological profile of Aquarius, we tend to be very ideological, it's not my fault.

[RTR]

The sign under which you were born should have nothing to do with having an open or closed mind. Without added smiles, it does seem a bit telling on thought processes or the lack thereof.

Being young and not theoretically in a position to contribute also has nothing to do with having an indoctrinated mind.

Age has little to do with the ability to contribute. I have known secondary school students who have made positive contributions to the hobby. Attitude and interest and an inquiring and examining mind are key. That actually should be easier for a student than for and old crab like me.

Captive intake to hobby and resulting captive breeding may appear ancient history to you, but most of it has happened during my lifetime, and no small percentage during yours - just how long do think that it is has been practical and profitable to breed neons in captivity?

[Z Man]

To my mind, one of the biggest problems today is the destruction of the rain forests in Central & South America. Soon many fish who are indigenous to certain areas will become extinct because of lack of vegetation and habitat. In Africa many Lake Victoria cichlids are now only found in captivity because of the introduction of the Nile Perch many years ago. And so the problem continues.

[Aquarius0015]

The sign under which you were born should have nothing to do with having an open or closed mind. Without added smiles, it does seem a bit telling on thought processes or the lack thereof.

Please be sensitive towards belief systems, even if you do not think they are valid. As it happens, I do not put much stock in astrology, I was just trying to add light-hearted fun to a rather intense discussion. However, I have many Pagan friends to whom astrology is an integral part of religion. Suggesting that a student of astrology is acting without enough "thought processes" (I take it this means acting stupidly?) is hurtful to those who do practice and believe it.


have known secondary school students who have made positive contributions to the hobby.

I am interested in what these students have done. If it is a project that is affordable, practical, and of real consequence to the hobby, I would definitely like to help somehow.


just how long do think that it is has been practical and profitable to breed neons in captivity?

I have no idea. How long? I've grown up with neons always being bargain fish, so I assumed that they'd been bred captively for quite a while.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

ive got 2 colonys of wild caught fish their colours are awsome and its also good to bring in a new line to the species;) IMO

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

I understand where people would argue for both sides here, being either against or for catching fish from the wild for captivity.
Countless species have been saved from extinction by being bred and raised in captivity. The list is long and growing everyday.
However, removing species from the wild disturbs the natural process of evolution and can help extinction of wild species.
BUT- in my mind, until we figure out how to repair all the damage we have done and are doing to the environment, I feel its all fair to remove fish from the wild and bred them in captivity under proper conditions. **While keeping the hope of someday down the road re-releasing thier kin into the wild in mind. **


This doesn't go just for fish- it goes for every species on earth. Conservation is becoming a very very critical issue that so many people are overlooking nowadays. Everyone is so up in arms about animals being kept in zoos, while their wild cousins are being hunted and deforested out of thier homes. If people want to complain about it then thats fine- but don't get mad at wild animals being kept in captivity until something serious is being done by those complainants to save thier wild sanctuary.


:) This isn't intended at anyone in particular its just my rant. I get really worked up about it all. :sad

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

i saw a show the other day about the fish hand raised and released dugong his name was pig and he liked apples.

true story apart from the apples bit

[RTR]

Everyone can have any belief system they want. The issue arises when those belief systems are applied to fact and science and those who apply them believe that both beliefs and reality operate under the same rules, which is not the case.

So, you are saying that your judgement call on the question of wild capture is based on no information and knowledge beyond that available frrom the boob tube? Q.E.D.

[LMOUTHBASS]

this is a fish forum you guys have to got to tone it down - how bout everyone stops trying to talk like they're prize winning scientists and n just relax ughhhhh i'm sick of people trying to act like their friggin brilliant on this website - share your info n thats that

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

from what i understand some people think the people who go out and get the wild fish have no idea what their doing 1)as an idea sence 2)as and inpact to the ecosystem.

when they start catching fish in the hundreds of thousands then it becomes a problem.
people catch more fish out of creeks,dam,rivers etc every day(world wide) then they do in a year from say the 2 main rift lakes, amazon, and south,central american area.

when their is very few fish left in either one of those areas they can be bred back with alot of ease IMO.

[PumaWard]

Most wild caught fish are caught by a few locals in a primitive manner (I.E. nets with a 1-2' diameter). Fish being caught in this fashion will be able to reproduce faster than they are being taken from the wild. The people catching them are no more than a simple predetor to the fish, and have the same impact on the fish as a simple predetor.

I don't know how many of you have tried to catch fish in a river using a net (which, I would imagine, has rock formations similiar to that of the rift lakes... a lot of small holes and a lot of fast little fishies :)) it's nearly impossible to catch them using a net... therefore, I can only imagine a small few of these fish are actually caught compared to those that get away.

I have read in several places that, in general, catching fish in the wild has very little impact on the wild fish populations.


As for my own opinion of wild caught fish vs. captive breed fish... I am indifferent. There are some species that I would prefer to have that were wild caught... guppies are one of them (the fish are not excessively inbred and are there for much more hardy compared to the one's at the lfs). There are other species that I would prefer captive breed, angelfish for example (hopefully less parasites, and cheaper). Then, there are some fish that I really don't care where they came from as long as they are healthy, J. transcriptus's for example.

There are some species, like cardinal tetras, which are extremely difficult to breed in the aquarium. To my knowledge, they are only annually caught in the wild, as a diliberate attempt to keep a healthy, stable wild population.

[Aquarius0015]

I am going to stop talking about religion/practices because it is getting off-topic and also a very personal issue that evokes strong emotional response.

I would also like to correct the impression that I base all of my decisions on television, although I realize how one could make such assumptions from the one sentence in my post. In reality, I also read newspapers, Newsweek, National Geographic (and I sometimes do watch the show which I do believe to be quite well done and informative), PETA newsletters (although vey infrequently I must admit), etc.

This discussion has been very informative to me, and I'm glad that people are taking such interest in it. I am going to do a bit of research on my own before making a final decision, but I want to thank everyone for trying to remove personal bias and explaining both sides fairly.

However before I leave for a holiday mini-trip, I really would like to know about the neons and the student projects. Thanks and have a happy xmas/chanukah/kwanzaa/solstice/whatever!