Stupid Mistake - input appreciated.

[JazzyB]

Well, I made a really stupid mistake. :sick: I was switching the filters on my 27G from an AC150 to an Ecco 2231 completely forgot about the lack of bacteria in my 2231. I meant to put the sponge from the AC into the canister to help seed the new filter, but in my excitement forgot. Darn!!

To cut to the chase, my tank had a huge spike in nitrites (no ammonia present). I've done a major water change on the 25th. Unfortunately, my silver dollars seem to have been labouring a bit under these conditions, i.e., opening/closing mouth, appear to be breathing heavily. One of them looks a little weak.

Would adding "Cycle" help the situation? If you have any other suggestions then fire away.

Cheers!

[Prometheus]

Best bet that would clear everything up (overnight) is bio-spira... As for the cycle, I've never had any dealings with it...

[ewok]

skip the cycle but add some salt. salt is helpful for nitrite poisoning. from what i gather the effect of nitrites on a fish prevents the uptake of oxygen somehow, maybe by binding with the red blood cells. on a positive side, it is reversable, unlike ammonia burns.

keep up the water changes too.

good luck

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

ive done that a few times and ive found just do lots of water changes

[TKOS]

So far there is no bio spira in Canada that I know of. Just keep doing the water changes, small ones every day if needed. The more often you do them the bigger the change can be as there should be huge fluctuations in pH and such if you are doing it a lot.

I think the salt is 1 tsp per gallon?

[JazzyB]

Promotheus,
Cycle is live bacteria, which I believe is similar to Bio-Spira.

Ewok,
Why should I skip the Cycle? Wouldn't that add in establishing a new bacteria colony in the new filter? Would adding Cycle with the salt cause any adverse affects, i.e., would the salt affect the bacteria?

TKOS,
Could you confirm the amount of salt to be added? Can I use table salt or does it have to be "aquarium salt"? The tank is 27G.


*I added an 8oz bottle of Cycle to the tank about 10 minutes ago. Any idea how long it takes for the bacteria to "kick in"?

Thanks.:cool:

[ewok]

do what you want, it really won't help tho. if you had already made up your mind to do it, why did you waste everyones time asking the question? :mad:

maybe if you did some research and reading on bacteria you would understand why it "really won't help". there are **** few shortcuts in this hobby and "bacteria in a bottle" isn't one of them. (except *possibly* bio-spira, i have heard it will, but i have no judgement.)

salt however is an effective aid for nitrite poisoning. i'm not sure the exact amount, i honestly never measured. you don't want to exceed like 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons or so. table salt will work, but i prefer using aquarium salt. i usually just pour it in "by eye", because i know what i'm dosing isn't very heavy.

i don't have all the fancy terms handy to explain bacteria, but the bacteria you need is very hard to keep alive outside of an aquarium or other such unit. as such, it's lifespan is very limited and it cannot be kept on a shelf indefinately, waiting for someone to need to cycle a tank. the bio-spira is kept refrigerated (i think) and has a very limited shelf life, which may be why you cannot get it. there are however "other" bacteria which are basically waste eaters which can be encapsulated and will keep pretty well. that's what cycle has, and many other products also have them. they do not however actually "cycle" the tank, they just eat the waste products. it's NOT the same thing. RTR wrote a good article explaining this i think, i don't have a link handy tho. there have also been several people that have tested these products and posted the results on several forums. i, personally, have tried several products also, but the only one i would recommend is bio-zyme and that is for waste "cleanup" not "cycling". i have also discontinued all of them myself as i have had several unexplained bacterial deaths around the times of my dosing, and something about releasing millions of any kind of bacteria in the tank at the same approximate time would make me suspect them.

go ahead and waste your money tho....... we all have to learn somehow..... :rolleyes:

[JazzyB]

Hey Ewok!

I think you might've misunderstood my post. I posted the question because I was looking for some general advice. As indicated in the title, I made a stupid mistake. That's all. :sick:

Just wondering how I could help build up the bacteria colony in the tank again such that it would assist in alleviating the current water and fish condition. Whether I know an answer or not, I tend to ask questions because it's good to have a confirmation of something. No question is stupid. Plus, I don't see myself as a "know it all".:confused:

I did ask you a few questions specifically because I wanted to add the salt, as per your suggestion. If I've wasted money on adding the Cycle, oh well, so be it. Sometimes you learn through your mistakes. The tank had already cycled but with the new filter, coupled with my mistake, it pushed it right back into cycling again. I was going to get some filter media from a friend, to help re-establish the tank, but he's away this weekend, thus the Cycle. I've personally never used "bacteria in a bottle" because I tend to question the lifespan. Plus, I agree that there's few shortcuts in the hobby.;)

I'm adding the salt as per your previous suggestion. I'll keep you posted as to the results.

Thanks.:cool:

[TKOS]

I am not really sure of the tsp per gallon ratio but a low dose with cories is generally a good idea, so 1 tsp per 5 as Ewok said is probably best. Some people don't like table salt as it may have anti caking agents. That is why aquarium salt is probably better.

Cycle won't really do anything. There might be a few bacteria still alive in the bottle but there is no guarentee. There has also been reports of cycle causing ammonia spikes in tanks due to the fact that as the bacteria die they create waste. BioSpira is kept cold and the bacteria survive this way.

How old is the tank? A well established tank should be able to handle filter media being changed. There should be plenty of bacteria int he rocks and any decorations to take over while the filter media builds back up. I know my tanks have never had any trouble during these few moments when I did change media. Of course my tanks are really understocked.

Water changes are still the best way to go until things level out.

[JazzyB]

This particular tank has been running for a number of months and was fully cycled. But as I mentionned, I had removed the bacteria-laden AquaClear filter and added the bacteria-free Eheim 2231 canister. I was initially hoping that the bacteria present in the gravel, wood, etc. would've sufficed but I guess not. I was hoping that adding the bacteria would've helped. I guess I should've went with my "gut instinct" and not bought it. I've never used bacteria products before. Oh well, I must've been a bit emotional when I bought it. Hahaha!

I'm about to add the salt and keep up small water changes until I notice a difference.

Thanks for the advice.:cool:

[kveeti]

Regarding the product "Cycle". I was doing some research recently and came across this tidbit (Tom's Place archives, I think??). I am cutting and pasting directly from this site:

http://features.aaquaria.com/repository/cyclingammonia.shtml

What do you do when you have a great big bottle of Cycle? Experiment again. I poured pure Cycle into an open jar.

Tested pure cycle.
Ammonia 4-5ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
PH off the chart on the high side using the high range PH kit.That means 8.8 or higher.

I was unable to get a reading from Nitrate using pure Cycle.It turned the cherriest red I've ever seen after a second of mixing. I had to dillute 1ml of Cycle in 99 ml of nitrate free water to get the darn thing back on the chart.Tested at 20-40ppm so that translates to between 2000 and 4000 ppm of nitrate in pure Cycle. I guess it could be called concentrated nitrate.

That immediately brings to mind several technical questions. What the hecks all that nitrate added for? Why do we need to add that much nitrate to our tanks? Why is the PH so freaking high?

If live bacteria were in the bottle wouldn't they keel over dead from that extreme of a PH shock when added to the tank? I'm fairly certain why there's 4-5ppm ammonia present.Dead bacteria should rot and produce ammonia.Everything else does when it dies.

[ewok]

sorry if i mistook you. i didn't mean to imply you were a "know it all" either. it's been a long few days and i was a little frustrated i suppose. sorry.

agree with what's been posted so far that i read.

i don't quite get why you're getting spikes either, if your tank had time to become somewhat established the effects should be fairly minimal. that's probably why you aren't getting ammonia tho, the nitrite bacteria grow slower than the ammonia ones and you put a good dent in them i imagine. despite anything that's said to the contrary the filter is *the* optimal place for them to grow. in retrospect you should have run the filters in tandem for a couple of weeks, since you had the tank already established. too late now tho. :(

kveeti: i would have to wonder if that means the "shelf life" of that bottle was expired somehow. maybe they bottle the stuff with a ready food source and count on occasional agitation for oxygen. in time the food would be depleted, maybe causing the nitrates, then the bacteria die and cause the ammonia? don't ask me where the ph comes from tho, unless they do it purposely to counter the ph drop caused by "cycling". i know a super low ph will kill the bacteria also, i'm not sure about the threshold for super high.......... the end result tho, is no viable bacteria, if they start out with the right kind. so maybe if you got a "new" bottle fresh from the factory, it might also be a viable product....... :confused:

the bio-zyme "waste" type bacteria are dried and that causes them to be encapsulated? or they dry them after they are or something. it gives them a much better shelf life i imagine, just re-activate with water.

that article might be one of RTR's, he has several posted at tom's place. he also has one on bacteria i think and he has a good one on salt. most table salt *does* have anti-caking agents, but the amount is so minimal as to be negligable and the trace of iodine should actually be good for them. i'm an oddball with the aquarium salt, i have both types for my fish tank, but i tend to use the aq salt more because it's easier to tell the quantity when you aren't strictly measuring and for some reason seeing the "aq" in the name just sort of makes me feel better. it's hard to explain, but it's an old newbie holdout that never quite went away. not to mention it's sort of neat to watch the crystals melting on the bottom. :D

[jiggerpolebill]

a little late chiming in, but i was sold some cycle at the the start-up of my 1st aquarium and it did absolutely nothing for me as far as cycling goes. how is your tank now? has it stabilized?

[JazzyB]

Hey Ewok! Don't worry about it. We all have those "rough" kind of days.

I've added the salt. I'm going to do a 10% water change later this afternoon. I'll keep you updated. Thanks for everyone's input.:cool: