Overanxiously Overstocked and Unfortunately Under-Researched 25 Gallon

[jb_lyndon]

We've recently aquired our first aquarium, a 25 gallon w/ an AquaClear 200 filter as a christmas present for the family, me my girlfriend and our daughter.
Unfortunately I've been unable to resist the pressure to aquire too many fish too quickly.

We set up the tank 7 days ago and followed all directions precisely... unfortunately this is where our adherence to the rules bends/ends :(.
On Day 2 we intended to introduce a few temporary feeder fish to hasten the biological cycle which we did, but we also simultaniously introduced a Pleco and one 1 1/2" goldfish (I think the goldfish should be removed as we're not keeping a goldfish tank). Then on Day 4 we introduced 6 neon tetras, 1 bala shark and 1 irridescent shark. And on Day 5 added 6 more neon tetras and 2 Silver Dollars. Unfortunately during this time I'd been away from my computer rendering me unable to research our aquisitions and our ignorant conduct [PetCetera (Big pet store chain) will sell you anything]. Now I know we are well overstocked for this new aquarium.

Did a water test on day 5:
ph: 8.5
Nitrite: perfect
Ammonia: high - between 0.25 and 1.5 if memory serves (don't have the log book on hand)

Day 5 added Ammonia Filter media.

Although it is obvious that we've been ignorant A-holes I'd be forever in your debt for any help.

QUESTIONS:
1- are our current fish doomed? What should we do?
2 - Is the Ammonia Filter Media in a AquaClear 200 for a 25 G tank an appropriate and effetive method to salvage the quality of our water and keep our fish healthy?
3- How long can the Bala and Irridescent Sharks live a healthy life in a 25 G tank, how large will they get & what problems might we face?
4 - Apparently Silver Dollars are good community fish but we've had conflicting advice. Some say that they will eventually eat neon tetras, others say there's no problem.
5 - eventually we plan to get 2 dwarf gouramis... might there be any problem with this aquisition?

Again I'm forever in your debt for your experienced expertise.

Thank you to any who can help us on our way,

jb

[mrbigisbudgood]

At this point, if you want to keep your fish.......

water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change
water change

You get yourself past an overstocked, most likely uncycled tank, then worry about your next steps.

[TKOS]

In case you didn't get that last post do a water change. It is the best way to get those ammomnia levels low. Do a small 10 % change every day until this sorts itself out. A pleco will get too big for that tank and produce massive amounts of waste, unless of course you bought a dwarf variety like a bristlenose. Don't use temp fish, it is cruel and what are you planning on doing with them when you are done? Returnign them to the store? Then some poor person comes in to buy a fish and it is all sick and stunted.

Yes, a goldfish should be taken out. They really require q different setup than tropical fish. The bala and ID can get huge but the longer they stay in a small tank the more stunted they get and the quicker they will die.

You should really sit downa nd figure out what you ultimately want this tank to look like. Many fish (inlcuding balas and id's) need to be in schools to be happy. Gouramis will do fine in a tank your size but in reality not with your current fish load.

I would pick a schooling fish like the neons, add some bigger centerpiece fish like the gouramis, add some live plants and get some sort of bottom feeder like a dwarf pleco or cory catfish (but get the sinking food pellets and not just flake food). This will be a healthy happy tank and much easier to look at then a random assortment of fish IMO.

But for now. Water changes!!

[Wippit Guud]

Originally posted by jb_lyndon
QUESTIONS:
1- are our current fish doomed? What should we do?
2 - Is the Ammonia Filter Media in a AquaClear 200 for a 25 G tank an appropriate and effetive method to salvage the quality of our water and keep our fish healthy?
3- How long can the Bala and Irridescent Sharks live a healthy life in a 25 G tank, how large will they get & what problems might we face?
4 - Apparently Silver Dollars are good community fish but we've had conflicting advice. Some say that they will eventually eat neon tetras, others say there's no problem.
5 - eventually we plan to get 2 dwarf gouramis... might there be any problem with this aquisition?


ANSWERS:
1. The majority of your fish will outgrow a 25g (some very fast). Assuming you do water changes daily (about 20% until you cycle) and no damage has been done yet, most of the fish 'might' survive.

2. An Aquaclear 200 is rated for that size tank, but you need to lighten up the bio-load, but getting rid of the fish that will outgrow it will solve that.

3. Bala's are a schooling fish, the stress of being alone will probably kill it before outgrouwing the tank does. Iridescents... I give it 3-4 months before it's too big (they get to a foot really fast)

4. Silver Dollars are a good community fish, but like most fish, they tend to eat anything that will fit in their mouths. Eventually, the neons will fit into their mouths.

5. Before we address adding new fish, lets get a hold of what's in the tank here...

Take out the 2 sharks, the goldfish, and the silver dollars. The goldfish won't live long in tropical water, and the rest will outgrow the tank.

Do you know what kind of pleco it is? If by chance it's a clown pleco, it will be ok. However, chances are that since you just said 'pleco' then they were just labelled 'pleco' which makes it a common it'll get too big for the tank too, so I'd yank it as well.

So, that leaves us with the 6 neons, a good start. Now you can add the dwarf gourami. Given the extra room now, I'd say you could go as high as 5, as long as they'r dwarves. For algae control, 3 ottos should to the trick. And then you've got a pretty good 25g.

[Slappy*McFish]

Agree with all the above posts, but with a pH that high(8.5), I wonder about the long term health of any tetra species..and even gouramis. If it was 7.5 I would feel much better. To be honest, it seems your water is better suited for african cichlids, but at 25g you don't have much space to work with and cichlids need their space. Maybe you could go with a livebearer tank...these fishes include swordtails, platies, guppies, and mollies...all of which would do fine in very alkaline water.

[Wippit Guud]

Heh, was so concerrned with the bio load, never thought to check PH.

Could try dropping the PH using driftwood, a couple of fairly large pieces could bring it down to 8 or so...

[jb_lyndon]

Thanks for all the advice guys, truely appreciate the help.

Sad news this morning as the bigger of the 2 Silver Dollars had the life sucked out of him sometime through the night when he got stuck to the filter tube :(

About the high ammonia level...
I've been told that those suggested "daily" water changes will stress the fish more than the high ammonia levels. And that the ammonia is to be expected in new aquarium setups and actually helps with establishing the bio cycle. Then once the cycle is established the ammonia levels will go down. Does this guy know what he's talkin' about?? (oh he also of course recommended removing the goldfish, feeders, and bala but not immidiately as he says the goldfish and feeders will assist in aquiring a good bio cycle).

Oh and yes we have a relatively large piece of driftwood in the tank already but what about picking up some reverse osmosis water for the water changes to bring down the ph in the process?

[OrionGirl]

'Stress' from ammonia is deadly--water changes are a relief. Do the water changes. Ammonia is deadly!

As for contributing to a good cycle--malarky. The amount of ammonia--once detected by a hobbyist kit--is far more than the bacteria can consume. Keeping it in levels low enough to reduce the negative effects on the fish will not starve the bacteria, nor slow their growth. Think of it this way--if you are served 10 times more than you can eat, will it greatly increase the amount you can eat? No--it just means there's 10 times as much as you need. Same for bacteria--having lots of ammonia around does not increase the speed of reproduction.

The silver dollar was ailing--healthy fish are fully capable of resisting the pull of a filter or powerhead. Sick fish are not, dead fish even less so.

[Slappy*McFish]

^agreed.
The statement of daily water changes being more stressful than high ammonia levels is ignorant and just all out very poor advice. Also, the higher the pH, the more 'toxic' ammonia becomes...all the more reason to do daily water changes. Ammonia will do more than just 'stress' your fish, it will very quickly 'kill' them..especially high concentrations in high pH.

[jb_lyndon]

Yeah I thought his advice sounded suspect.
So I plan to do daily 10-20% water changes but for how long do you think I will be doing this?

And I suppose removing the goldfish immediately can only help with clearing up our polluted water? The Bala shark will be going to a new home sometime this week so our population will be down to:

12 neon tetras
1 Pleco
1 Irridescent Shark
*1 Silver Dollar (hopefully to be returned for a refund)

And another question about ph...
I hope to use softer reverse osmosis treated water for water changes but that may become very inconvenient if I'm doing daily water changes for an extended period. And I was thinking of getting ph [down] drops rather than discolouring the water with peat filtration, but was hoping that someone might reassure me that it's a good idea or dissuade me if it's not.

Oh and is the high ammonia level contributing to the high ph?
When the ammonia level drops will the ph go down as well (this seems logical to me if highschool chemistry taught me anything)??

[OrionGirl]

The only way to determine when you don't need to do daily changes is by testing--when ammonia and nitrites are both 0, you can go to a less frequent regimen.

For pH--I would not try to manipulate pH during the cycle. The fish are acclimated to this pH now, and changing it along with the other toxins will probably cause more problems that it's worth. What is the pH of your water from the tap, after aerating overnight? Could there be something in the tank that is increasing it? Once the tank has cycled, test again, and see if the pH is still as high. If not, don't worry about it. If so, MAYBE make some changes. pH is important, but not critical. Fish can adapt to a variety of pH values, as long as that value is stable. Some fish won't reproduce successfully in the 'wrong' pH, but otherwise will be fine.

Manipulating water chemistry is not easy. There are tons of methods that will temporarily change the pH, most result in yo-yoing, and this can be fatal for your fish. If you know the hardness (primarily KH) of your water, and you want live plants, you may want to look into CO2 supplementation--but once more, not until the tank has cycled.

[TKOS]

My tetras do fine in a high 7's pH. They will adapt. And as was mentioned by the time the cycle is done your fish will be used to their water. The only thing chemical you should add to your water is a good dechlorinator that also removes chloramines.

With a pleco in your tank producing enough ammonia for the bacteria will not be a problem. I would do daily water changes for the next week. Then start testing the water daily for ammonia and nitrite. If none are present then you can hold off on the water change. When it appears do a water change. Eventually you will be fine doing a weekly water change (excpet in overstocked conditions).

[Slappy*McFish]

Just keep in mind that the pH scale is logarithmic, in that each gradation of pH represents an increase/decrease of 10X. For example, a pH of 4.5 is 10X more acidic than pH 5.5, and 100X more acidic than pH 6.5. That's a huge difference. A pH of 8.5 is just as alkaline as a pH of 5.5 is acidic. I seriously doubt anyone would keep a hardwater fish in a pH as low as 5.5 and not expect some long term difficulties. Fish do adapt, but they will never display their true behavior and/or color. I would never keep African cichlids in water with a pH lower than 7. Even though they probably could adapt to it, they surely wouldn't display their full potential. If your pH was in the 7's, I would say they'll be fine, but 8.5 is just too alkaline for tetras. They won't do well. seriously consider a 'livebearer' tank....these fish would thrive in your water and you wouldn't have to tamper with the pH, causing even more problems.

[FastFish]

jb_lyndon, you seem to have a misunderstanding about ammonia toxicity vs. pH. Ammonia does not cause a significant pH increase in the quantities being described (order of 1ppm), because of the strong buffering capacity of water, even soft water. Rather, ammonia toxicity is affected by pH. In acidic water, most ammonia occurs as the ammonium ion, NH4+, whereas at higher pH the ratio of [much more toxic] unionized ammonia (NH3) is much greater. Thus, ammonia is MUCH MORE DANGEROUS AT HIGHER pH. A relevant link:

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

From the data we can predict that at pH 8.5, an expected 50% of fish (here at 86F) will die after four days from prolonged exposure to only 0.17ppm total ammonia, less than you have measured. Comparitively, four-day lethality at same temperature is 0.75ppm at pH 7.0.

From experience, I would say that your silver dollars were already near death before the filter caught them.

I think until your tank is fully cycled (ammona, nitrates undectable), the recommendations for daily water changes are very correct.