Controlling aggression through overcrowding

[qieter]

Hi guys, I am thinking of getting a 50 gal, a lil over 3 feet long, and i am thinking of keeping GTs, salvinis, jack dempseys and texas. I was told that if i start all of them small, like 2-3 inches, i can keep about 6-8 of them in there and they will get along when they are bigger and i can always trade in if there is one that is superdominant. Whats ur opinion on this? thanx

vic

[Lynsey]

I tried that in a 75 gallon (5 feet long), and if didn't even come close to working. I had all of the ones you mentioned, and even tried convict, firemout and nicaragua cichlids in the mix. I ended up with two cichlids that got along.....................an Oscar and a BP (none of the ones I started with)!!!! I got these two after I gave up on the other ones. The Oscar and BP have been together for over a year, and they are great together. Not one fight. It is nice to have fish that have nice perfect tails and fins, that have not been tattered by fighting. I would highly suggest keeping a pair, or only 3 smaller (under 6"), or two 8" fish, ore one larger 12" fish and a few bottom feeders.

[goldfries]

as long as your fish is happy.

[qieter]

Lynsey:

so what actually happens? you mean all the fish got beaten up by each other? or is there just one dominant fish beating up all the rest..because the guy who told me this said that if there is one dominant fish who is beating up the rest...i can just trade in this fish....so i am just curious to wat actually happen when u try setting up that 75 gal....when does the fightings start..etc...thanx alot

vic

[Marcus]

Qieter, I would strongly recommend against it. Keep this in mind. As a basic rule of thumb, large CA cichlids should be given 5 gallons per inch of fish. Just the GT alone should have a 60 gallon tank to itself based on this. The fish you list come to approx. 36" at maximum size. Ideally this would require a 180 gallon tank. Even in a 180 I suspect a full grown Texas would be a terror to all of it's tankmates.

Even if you end up getting those fish to live together they will always be tattered and beat up and you will never have a single spectacular specimen. The pics that you see of gorgeous cichlids with long trailing fins and beautiful colors are typically fish that have been raised by themselves or in quarters that are spacious enough to accomodate the fish load. Show fish are raised as individual specimens.

Look at it this way. If they put 10 prisoners in a cell instead of two, do you think 10 would get along any better than two?

I know it's difficult limiting yourself to just one or two cichlids when there are so many out there to choose from but think about this. A pair of cichlids in a 55. Choose something smaller like Jewels or Kribs. You're in a bit of a tighter spot because it sounds like your 55 is a show tank that is tall and has limited bottom area. After you pick a nice pair of cichlids that are suited size wise to your tank add some good dither fish. 6-8 Australian Rainbows, a couple of Bristle-Nose Pl*cos and two Yo-Yo Loaches. You now have a nice, colorful, lively tank with lot's of fish and minimum of aggression. The cihlids are not crowded and able to develop their nice finnage and act in a more natural manner including breeding. There is nothing more enjoyable about fishkeeping than watching a pair of cichlids herd a school of fry around. Decorate the tank with pieces of bogwood and large stones creating lots of caves and hiding spots. As an intersting twist, put a bunch of fallen leaves in the tank making it look like a littered lake bed. This I think would make for a very pleasing set-up without all of the death and destruction associated with 'controlled overcrowding'.

Just my 2¢ worth (OK, maybe a buck and a quarter!!) :D

[Faramir]

This is common practice with Malawi cichlids, but I've never heard of it being recommended for SAs.

[Frameshift]

Originally posted by qieter
because the guy who told me this said that if there is one dominant fish who is beating up the rest...i can just trade in this fish

When you trade in the most dominant fish, there is a "job oppurtinuity" for the other fish, and one of them will step up and become the new dominant fish. You trade in that fish and... you get the idea.

There is always a dominant fish with cichlids, and removing one will not fix aggression problems because the fish left in the tank develope a new pecking order with a new dominant fish. If you keep trading in your dominant fish I can just about guarantee that you will end up with two fish that get along, or just one fish in the tank.

Overcrowding doesn't work with SA/CA cichlids. Just think of all the waste all those fish would produce if they could live together. Massive water changes.

[Kit Walker]

I would strongly advise against it. You'd be lucky to get away with one single specimen of those, unless a pair was raised together. You have chosen fish with attitude. My Texas wouldn't tolerate any other fish in a 75G. You'll just end up with many beaten up or dead fish, and go through many bottles of Melafix trying to control the wounds.

[Lynsey]

What happened in my tank?.............Well, exactly what Frameshift said would happen. I would take out the dominant fish, and then a new dominating fish would come up and take his place. It is not a good idea. It isn't very nice to sit back and watch your tank, when the fish are fighting and all have ripped and tattered fins.

[Ledslnger]

Frameshift hit the nail on the head with "job opportunity". When the bad boy leaves the tank another will replace him. That is a "fact". If a breeding group has two males and the dominant is removed.....does anyone believe the subdominant will chill and wait for his return?????

[ScottoMacD]

I have done the controlled agrression thing with overcrowding..... But never with anything as aggressive as the fish you mentioned.

I did it with acaras, firemouths, rainbows etc. all fish of that level of temperment.

It worked, the tank looked full and "alive" but it really didn't have the feel that I have come to love about cichlids when they set up their own territory and defend it.

Cichlids can be but really aren't suppose to be community fish.

Keep in mind that fish also have personalities. You can get the friendly ones or the bastartd ones. In any case all that it will take is one or two bad apples in the community and it becomes a living hell for the rest of the fish.

The dempsey's would be the first to get their butts handed to them. I don't know where the myth of JD's being put into the same aggressive catagory as other real meanies like GT's. They really aren't.

I have a Carpinte with my large male JD, with some targets in my 55. The tank looks good and everyone gets along more or less. Dispite the odd squabble.

I would recommend something similar with either the jd and a couple of salvini's or the texas with the salvini's or the jd with the texas. Throw in some targets and your tank will look great.

[qieter]

thanx alot for the input guys..the 55 gal is going to be 4 feet long....i guess ill just get a couple of the fish that i mentioned...plus the bristlenose plec, tiger plecotia and the 3 clown loaches that i have....

vic

[SoulkeepeR]

SA's are to be NEVER over stocked, mainly becuase of thier size and agression.

I think you would be better off with malawi's you can over stock them (to an extent) and they can still be happy. I have been currently running this setup in a 55 gallon for about 3 years now, stay away from the haps and you should be fine. the key is overfiltration and TONS of caves, I currently have

4 electric blues
3 breeding blue zebras
2 labs
4 white thingys that I have YET to identify!!@#$
1 loach
1 CHA
1 green severum