any chemists? i got a heck of a question

[ewok]

while browsing posts something hit me.....

we all know bleach + ammonia is a serious nono.

isn't chloramine something similar? (chloramine = chlorine (bleach?) and ammonia)

just a wacky thought that hit me while i was reading........

[PumaWard]

Not exactly. I looked up the equation for chloramine and it looks like, during the chemical reaction, one hydrogen atom is released from ammonia, or two hydrogen atoms are released from ammonium.

If chloramine was ammonia + chlorine then the chemical equation would be NH3Cl, the ones I found for chloramine were NHCl and NH2Cl.

I could be wrong though... I don't have anyone to check :D

HTH

[Kagh't]

if i remember correctly, it uses ammonium not ammonia to combine with chlorine, hence the different properties, but i may be wrong...

[ewok]

even if they use ammonium, dumping it into high ph water would theoretically change the substance........

maybe the water dilution has something to do with it too?

interesting thoughts.

[mogurnda]

I had never really thought about it, so hunted around a little. If you look in the Merck Index, you get a sulfonated/chlorinated aromatic hyrocarbon (cloramine T). Interestingly, that is used for bacterial infections in ponds, but isn't the stuff in our water.

What we're dealing with is NHCl2 (dichloramine) or NH2CL (monochloramine), which is what PumaWard was saying. It's made by combining hypochlorite ion (bleach) with ammonia.

According to one book, adding NaThiosulfate dechlorinator to chloramine will essentially drive the reaction toward free ammonia/ammonium. I'm not sure if I believe it.

[ewok]

Originally posted by mogurnda
What we're dealing with is NHCl2 (dichloramine) or NH2CL (monochloramine), which is what PumaWard was saying. It's made by combining hypochlorite ion (bleach) with ammonia.


that's pretty much my point tho...... if you add bleach to ammonia (or vice versa) in your house it creates a crude but toxic form of "mustard gas" i believe it was........ the point being, this is a toxic substance to humans. adding it to water makes it safe?


According to one book, adding NaThiosulfate dechlorinator to chloramine will essentially drive the reaction toward free ammonia/ammonium. I'm not sure if I believe it.

"Thiosulfate" works as a dechlorinator, a couple guys here use it. i've seen it mentioned before. you can probably search that part on the forums.

anyone else? i think the whole idea is sort of interesting.... i guess i'm sort of surprised at it all, and it's so obvious i don't think anyone ever paid attention before........

[TKOS]

I think what we are missing is that the end reaction of bleach and ammonia is chlorine gas. That is why you don't mix them or else you get that by product. But the water inductry is already using chlorine in its gas form so obviously they are not worried about a reaction that forms the poison gas. There would already be numerous safety measures in place.

Even if some chrloine gas doesn't react, that is already what they are pumping into our water. And it bonds too fast to worry about harming you at this end of things.

[DEmigh]

A little ramble here by a pure amateur...

I've understood that the basic idea behind water treatment is a risk/benefit analysis. Yes, chlorine is a toxin, chloramine even more so, but the few ppm in tap water is a small price to pay to virtually eliminate the threat of a whole host of waterborne diseases.

We humans, with our mammalian physiology are only exposed to the toxicity of water treatment chemicals through our digestive tracts, which are all about selective absorption. Its a good trade.

Fish have to "breathe" the stuff :sick: much to the annoyance of aquarium keepers.

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

So wait, if you add dechlorinator to your water before adding it to the tank, (i do), and this dechlorinator also removes chloramine.... and the products from this reaction of the break up of chloramine is ammonia and chlorine... are we not adding ammonia to the tank?
:confused:

Probebly on an insignificant scale, though.

[Slappy*McFish]

^ Yes, but the ammonia is converted into an reletively harmless ammonium ion that is quickly broken down by the biofilter.

[JSchmidt]

My water has chloramine in it. It tests about 1 ppm or less of ammonia after adding straight sodium thiosulfate (at twice the dosage for chlorinated water).

I age my water for my home tanks, and each aging tank has a biocolony that consumes the ammonia before the water is added to the aquarium tanks.

I no longer will add chloriminated water directly to an inhabited tank (e.g., my tanks at work) without using something that also binds the ammonia, like Amquel. Even though a 50% water change (typical for me) would only bring the total tank concentration of ammonia to .5 ppm max, I've decided I don't want to expose my fish to the ammonia, even for a short time. That's probably conservative, but several accomplished fishkeepers pointed out the potential for cumulative problems over the long haul from the ammonia. Better safe than sorry, I guess.

Slappy, you mention that the freed ammonia is in the form of harmless ammonium; isn't that dependent on the water's pH? (i.e., in high pH water, won't the freed ammonia be present as ammonia, not ammonium? My ammonia freed from chloramine shows up in pH 7.8 water using either Nessler or salicylate tests...)

Jim

[PumaWard]

What we're dealing with is NHCl2 (dichloramine) or NH2CL (monochloramine), which is what PumaWard was saying. It's made by combining hypochlorite ion (bleach) with ammonia. (posted by mogurnda)


that's pretty much my point tho...... if you add bleach to ammonia (or vice versa) in your house it creates a crude but toxic form of "mustard gas" i believe it was........ the point being, this is a toxic substance to humans. adding it to water makes it safe? (posted by ewok)

Okay, The NHCl2 and the NH2Cl do not contain ammonia, Ammonia is NH3. A molecule of the mustard gas, as you said, would be represented by NH3Cl. The oxidation# of ammonia is +1 while the oxidation number of chlorine is -1, meaning it would be a 1:1 ratio.

I can't tell you about the NHCl2, but the NH2Cl I think I can explain how it is made.

Here would be what the reaction would look like:

1NH4 (aka ammonium) + 1 Cl ---------> 1 NH2Cl + 1H2

I know ammonia is not in this reaction because then it would leave 1 NH2Cl and one single H atom. Hydrogen is a diatomic element meaning it doesn't exhist in nature by itself, so it would have to be at least H2 .

The NHCl2 also did not probably have ammonia in a reaction either because ammonia is +1 and chlorine is -1, meaning that if there were 2 Cl there, the molecule of chloramine produced would have a -2 charge.

Could be completely wrong though :D, lol

[ewok]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Slappy, you mention that the freed ammonia is in the form of harmless ammonium; isn't that dependent on the water's pH? (i.e., in high pH water, won't the freed ammonia be present as ammonia, not ammonium? My ammonia freed from chloramine shows up in pH 7.8 water using either Nessler or salicylate tests...)

Jim

good catch! :)

that question also popped into my head as i was reading..... it may be ammonium "now" (assuming neutral or lower ph water), but if you dump it into a high ph african tank, that should essentially "free" it. end result, dumping ammonia into the tank. and in a high ph setup, even small amounts of ammonia can be highly toxic.......

bad reasoning?

[ewok]

maaaaaaann, i'm glad i'm not a chemist, this stuff could give you a headache! :D

same question i suppose, puma....

if you add NHCl2 or NH2Cl to high ph water, doesn't that essentially turn the ammonium to ammonia? or is the chemical more stable? the bond has to be broken by dechlorinator, basically removing the clorine (atom?)..... then it can be converted to ammonia?

this actually sort of raises more questions as it goes along....... :rolleyes:

any more thoughts?:D

[ewok]

*another* question......

so say i made up my mind to "dechloriminate" chloramines (say that 5 times fast :D ) with a product like "amquel" which purports to neutralize ammonia.........

what happens then if i dump it into high ph water? does the amquel convert the ammonia to ammonium to neutralize it and now, added to high ph water it frees it anyway and you still have the same problem you sort of started with?

:D

[PumaWard]

if you add NHCl2 or NH2Cl to high ph water, doesn't that essentially turn the ammonium to ammonia? or is the chemical more stable? the bond has to be broken by dechlorinator, basically removing the clorine (atom?)..... then it can be converted to ammonia?

The Chloramine won't turn into mustard gas, if that's what you mean.

Like i said, I can't say much about the NHCl2, but the NH2Cl has achieved a "Noble gas-like" state and would take a good deal of energy to break the bonds and allow another hydrogen atom in. In that current state, it is stable because the outter electron sublevels are "full", adding another hydrogen would mean the need of more electrons to fill the outter sublevel of the new hydrogen atom. Again, I could be wrong... I'm only half way through chem :rolleyes:

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

Now i'm scared to use the de-chlorinator/de-chromaineator on the water i add to my african mbuna tank! :(


I haven't noticed anything bad yet. Does allowing the water sit and chemicals evaporate remove chloramine as well as chlorine?

[Slappy*McFish]

It's seems there may be some confusion on how the freed ammonia from chloramine is actually 'neutralized.' I am one of those that is a bit confused by it, as well. It seems that the majority of chloramine removing products don't actually convert NH3 to NH4, but rather 'binds' it to hydroxymethanesulfonate/HOCH2SO3-, or hydrosulfite salts.

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- > H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

This bond is extremely stable and dangerous NH3 will not be released back into the water regardless of pH. The biofilter then removes the bound ammonia(aminomethanesulfinate).

[ewok]

this is just a discussion and mostly conjecture. if you haven't noticed any ill effects the arguements may not be valid. i wouldn't worry too much yet. :)

unfortunately chloramine doesn't outgas like chlorine does. it has a much longer half-life? that's the whole purpose of using it. it lasts longer.

this was mostly to encourage discussion, and to satisfy some idle curiousity of mine. if what you're doing is working, keep doing it, you should be ok. :)

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by ~*LuvMyKribs*~
Now i'm scared to use the de-chlorinator/de-chromaineator on the water i add to my african mbuna tank! :(


I haven't noticed anything bad yet. Does allowing the water sit and chemicals evaporate remove chloramine as well as chlorine?

Our water utility uses chloramines. In the past, I did 75% water changes in my 180 mbuna tank at work using a simple dechlorinator. I tweak the water a bit to bring up pH and GH a bit and KH a lot; pH is about 8 or 8.2. The fish never seemed to show any short term ill-effects, and I never keeled over from a mustard gas release.

I only switched to Amquel later because of concerns about long term, cumulative effects of the low-level exposure to ammonia.

This is an interesting discussion, and I can almost (but not quite) follow the chemistry, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over doing water changes.

Jim

[mogurnda]

Slappy,
Have you got a reference for that reaction. I found one for hypochlorite with sodium thiosulfate, but the chemistry of chloramine is harder to find.

[Slappy*McFish]

Here are a few references..the 1st reference is a very good one and answered many questions for me.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

Aquatic Science Research Group website
http://aquascienceresearch.com/ProductInfo/AmQuelSpecs.htm

Wetman's site
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/nitcyc.shtml

The Krib
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/cl.html

List of all the major water conditioners with links
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

Plus you can do searches on the actual ingredients in some of these products.

[mogurnda]

Oops. Caught being lazy again.

Thanks!

[HungryGoldfish]

The chemical name you are all looking for is Hydrazine.

This is the principle reason you do not mix bleach and ammonia.

There are other products as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A795611

[Uncle Bete]

Hummm? interesting! but I got lost when then formulas kicked in :confused:
I like to use Prime(Seachem), it says it Removes Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia and Detoxifies Nitrite & Nitrate and Provides slime coat.

So I guess it covers all the problems I've been trying to understand here?
:confused: lol