Ok.. total newbie here.. lots of questions

[Nahualli]

I thought I knew enough stuff about aquarium maintenance but I am quickly and harshly learning that I don't know very much at all and I am starting to get a little flustered.

I have a 35 gallon hex shaped tank that I recently got. I had to transplant my fish from another tank because it sprung a leak and it was more expensive to repair it.

Right now there are 6 shubunkin goldfish in that tank. I had a pleco but he got sick.

Let me backtrack a little.. here's where the newbieness starts. First off - no one told me plecos were tropical. He used to be in the old tank with 2 goldfish, another pleco and an ADF. For 2 years they were fine. The day I finally moved them to the new tank (at the end of a 2 week gradual migration) 1 pleco ups and dies. I replace him but every replacement dies within days of being introduced to this new Tank of Death. The older pleco lingers just fine and is soon all alone because I gave up trying to add another pleco.

Well 4 months later I decide Im going to add some more fish again now that the tank has somehow stabilized. The very day I go to the fish store for another couple of fish .. the pleco gets sick. The skin around his head area... just comes off.. its like he has acid burns or something.. he's pale, lethargic, he wont eat.. nothing.. and he clouded up the water. I moved him to a q tank and put some meds in the water thinking it was a fungal infection. After changing out the water I went ahead and added the other fish I got ( 2 more shubunkins)

The problem is now I have 2 more small plecos and the larger sick one to deal with. I know now that they are tropical and they probably should not be put in the same tank anymore since the large tank is unheated. I am at a loss as to what to do with these plecos now. The sick one is getting a little better.. in the q tank with some mild meds he seems to be on the way to recovery.. his spots are coming back but he is more active and has taken to doing... pleco-like things again. His gills look healthy and his eyes are not cloudy. he doesnt look a lot better but he doesnt look any worse and with fish thats usually a good sign.

Now I have 4 subunkins in the big tank and 3 plecos in the small tank. What do I do? Are the goldfish poisoning my plecos? Is there nothing I can do to reintegrate that community? The reason I ask is because sure maybe ideally they should not be mixed but like I pointed out these survived for over 2 years in an unheated tank.. they were fine for so long.. why the sudden change? The pleco didnt get sick form the increased bio load Im sure because he was sick already when I got home from the fish store with the new fish. He hasnt even been in the same tank as the new fish so that's out of the question. It was suggested to me that if I heated the tank up a few degrees it would be good for the plecos and that if done very gradually the goldfish would not mind.

So... this isnt about "I have a new tank what do I do?" this is more like "This is my situation. If this were you what would you do?"

I can get another tank if I need to, or if I absolutely wont be able to put these guys back together again. Will I have to start changing the water more often if I do reintegrate them, or add another filtration system for the increased bio-load?

Another question.. I hear lots of mention of testing kH and pH levels, and I think I know what all that is but then I hear about getting readings of X ppm.. and Im just wondering what are some good accurate products you guys use? If I go to the LFS they just sell me the "easiest" and that usually is something like the mardel 5-in-1 test strips.. if Im looking for advice I would like to have some more accurate readings than "well it's bright pink"

I know this post is a mouthful.. I apologize for it being so scatterbrained.. if I could get any advice or if you have more specific questions I will be happy to answer

-Nah-

[tomm10]

I'm not sure exactly why your pleco got sick. Keeping it in colder water than he would like certainly did not help him though. Some times these sudden illnesses are more about the fish being stressed and thereby vulnerable to any number of fungi, parasites, bacteria, etc that may be in the water.

I'm not familiar with your breed of goldfish but I do know that with golfish and plecos you might have the two largest finned producers of waste in a home aquarium. At the very least you need to have amazing filtration in your tanks to keep the water clean.

Hex tanks are pretty inefficient (sp) in their use of water. A 35g hex tank has far less surface area, and therefore less aeration capabilities, than a 35g rectangular tank would. Also because of its shape it would allow as much swimming space for a bottom dwelling fish like a pleco. The pleco will get too big for that tank eventually as they can grow to 18" or larger.

Just because a fish can survive in the "wrong" water temp doesn't mean he can thrive in it. Keep either the goldfish or the pleco in water too warm or cold for them and you'll find yourself having problems down the line.

There are some goldfish folks here who can advise you better than I can but I would not put the pleco back in with the goldfish. I would either start a new tropical tank for him ( a larger one) or nurse him back to health and trade him to the lfs.

Good Luck.
:)

[Gulp]

You definitely need to get a decent water test kit before much can be said. You need to know what your ammonia and nitrite levels are to start. Goldfish are little pigs and make a mess of water. Avoid the test strips and get something like this:

http://www.petsmart.com/products/product_708.shtml It's very easy to use.

What type of filtration are you using?

[OrionGirl]

A 35 is not a large enough tank for all those fish in the long run--or even really for half of them.

How did you cycle the new tank? It sounds like part of the problem is ammonia poisoning. The cool temp, and the ammonia, could very easily have caused the ailments in the pleco.

The other potential problem--how did you acclimate the fish during the move? What was your maintenance routine with the previous tank, and what is it now?

For test kits--there are many that will work. Tetra test kits are fairly popular, as are SeaChem.

[JSchmidt]

I'd suspect you're problems stem from water quality due to overstocking. Six goldfish in a 35 is a pretty sizable bioload (you have about 4 or 5 more goldfish than conservative stocking levels would suggest), not even counting the plecos.

A much larger tank or many fewer fish would be a good place to start. Also, some test kits would be helpful, too, as was already mentioned.

HTH,
Jim

[Nahualli]

Originally posted by Gulp
What type of filtration are you using?

the 125 gph model of

http://www.petsmart.com/fish/shopping/filtration%5Fequip%5F%5F%5F%5Facces%5F/power%5Ffilters%5F%5F%5Fsupplies/products/product%5F776.shtml

thanks for the head's up on the water test kit.. that's what I was looking for

-Nah-

[Nahualli]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
I'd suspect you're problems stem from water quality due to overstocking. Six goldfish in a 35 is a pretty sizable bioload (you have about 4 or 5 more goldfish than conservative stocking levels would suggest), not even counting the plecos.

A much larger tank or many fewer fish would be a good place to start. Also, some test kits would be helpful, too, as was already mentioned.

HTH,
Jim

I hate to interject here prematurely but while the bio-load NOW may be too much just keep in mind the timeline of events and how they happened.

-- 2 plecos, 2 gf, 1 AFD in 20 gallon tank for 2 years
-- new tank arrives
-- transplant all plants and animals to new tank, 1 pleco dies
-- 4 months later 1 pleco, 2 gf still alive
-- pleco gets sick
-- new fish arrive

Im just pointing this out because it's important to note that even if the water is too poisonous for the fish now, the old pleco and the new goldfish have never been in contact with each other. Recall I came home from the fish store literally with bags in hand and saw that my water was cloudy. I then moved the pleco over to a q tank.

Any poisoning that happened happened without "help" from the new fish that were added in

-Nah-

[OrionGirl]

The poisoning I am referring to has nothing to do with the age or contact between the fish, but rather ammonia and nitrites--natural waste products from all fish. So, the build up of these will result without the presence of beneficial bacteria--which, unless you moved the old filter over, the new tank completely lacks. Without test kits, there's no way to judge if this is the case.

Sorry--you are sounding defensive, and no one here is trying to attack you. We are trying to determine what is going on in your tank, and extrapolating based on a) experience b) knowledge of the nitrogen cycle.

[Grassguy]

It sounds like Oriongirl is talking like you still have some ammonia from when you cycled, if the tank ever completely cycled. The ammonia is generated by the fish in the tank, and is converted into less harmful nitrite, and then nitrate through the nitrogen cycle. The newer plecos may have died because they had first been stressed by travelin from the LFS and then put into a tank with high levels of toxins in it. Without some test results, we have to make some assumptions and look for all plausible possibilites. If we had some test results, we might be able to weed some of them out.

Again, we're not attacking you, we're just trying to help you sort this out.

[Nahualli]

WTF.. I'm not being defensive. I was clarifying something that I didn't feel I conveyed well enough the first time. I just wanted to clarify that the tank with the 6 goldfish was not responsible for poisoning the plecos by virtue of having 6 goldfish in it.

While I don't have accurate ppm measurments (one of the reasons I came here) was because up until now I had been using the Mardel strips and they registered the ammonia in the water as slightly above "safe" levels. I don't have any conclusive numbers, sorry.. I can only tell you it was "light, light pink"

As for the moving of the fishies.. what I did was when it was time to move from tank 1 to tank 2 was I took about half of the water from tank 1 and poured it into tank 2, setting up the filter and gravel at that time. Then I filled up the rest of the tank with regular tap water and conditioned it (I think I used the NovAqua) starter kit thingy for new tanks.

About 2 weeks later I replanted all the plants from tank 1 into tank 2. About 4-5 days after that I moved the fish by just scoopin em out and popping them into their new home.

As for maintenance I admit I was less than stellar on the cleaning of the old tank. One of the reasons I got the bigger tank instead of just flushing the fish was because I decided I was going to be a little more responsible about the aquarium and it was actually interesting enough to care at that point. Once I had them moved over to the new tank, especially because pleco after pleco was dying I was pretty careful to observe water changes (I used to do em every 10 days). Im not always exact on the amount of water I change.. my basic rule of thumb is to vacuum the gravel (love my python) and replace whatever water was lost in the process... rather than stick to a % water change at the expense of leaving dirty gravel.

-Nah-

[OrionGirl]

I suspect that 2 things happened. 1) If you had not done regular water changes on the old tank, the water probably had fairly high nitrates. When the fish were moved over to the new tank, the drastically lower nitrates shocked them. 2) This, combined with the build up of ammonia, caused the health issues in the pleco #1 of 2. While high nitrates are not toxic, a sudden change in water quality--even for the better--will shock the fish and can kill them.

The new tank ran for a few days, but since it did not have an ammonia source, there were no bacteria colonies growing at this time. So, when the goldfish and plecos were moved over, the levels of ammonia spiked, and resulted in pleco 1 of 2's death, and pleco 2 of 2 getting a bacterial infection. The subsequent additions that died most likely suffered from ammonia burns, in addition to the shock of the cooler water.

The current fish, if acclimated back into the cool water slowly, and one a week to avoid a large spike, should be okay--though the cooler water will not be ideal and they may be prone to infections.

Personally, I would return the plecos. The new tank does not need them--and you can control the algae with regular water changes and controlling the nutrients in the tank.

[Nahualli]

yeah I guess I never thought about that.. fish used to living in lower quality water goes into shock when put into higher quality water.. it's always the little stuff that gets me. Here I was thinking I was doing the fish a favor :(

poor fishie... :(

-Nah-

[adblair]

PLEASE don't mention "just flushing the fish" - my heart can't take it. :sad