View Full Version : Hole in the Head.....successful cures???
I have searched and read several threads and websites on treating Hole in the Head and I am even more confused than ever. Gulp's case is getting worse by the day. I swear you can tell the spot on his back (right where the dorsal fin begins) is getting bigger daily. I am not sure what is causing it........and there are so many "theories" I don't know where to start. The water is in great condition, I have removed the charcoal from the filters (except in the Emperor 400 premade filter packs), we have been feeding him a varied diet including standard Hikari floaters, whole shrimp, small pieces of chicken, shrimp pellets, and frozen cubes of several types of worms and other good stuff. He has had NO feeder fish since the day he ate the fish that were helping to prep the 110 for his move from the 55. I do 15-20% water changes once a week now that the tank has cycled.
I guess my question is this. Has anyone here ever successfully treated hole in the head disease on an oscar? If so, what did you do? I hate seeing that spot get bigger and bigger..... :(
His lateral line is also becoming more visable. Not sure if that means anything or not.
EDIT: Forgot to add that I have (2) 250 watt heaters keeping the water at 78 degrees.
What is the nitrate titer in the tank immediately before a water change? How much is the pH below that of aged tap water?
i havent heard of any known cure or treatment of it.
PumaWard
01-27-2004, 3:55 PM
Here's a good article, whether is it accurate, I don't know. Hope it helps.
http://www.cichliddepot.com/diseases/hith.html
Originally posted by RTR
What is the nitrate titer in the tank immediately before a water change? How much is the pH below that of aged tap water?
Unfortunately, my test kit does not have anything for nitrate. I need to do something about that soon......
The PH out of the tap is around 7.2, the PH in the tank is around 6.8 at this time. I try to keep the PH between 6.8 & 7.2.
The nitrite as well as the ammonia level is 0.
Originally posted by PumaWard
Here's a good article, whether is it accurate, I don't know. Hope it helps.
http://www.cichliddepot.com/diseases/hith.html
Thanks for the link. I had read that one a long time ago, but it was a good refresher. I also read this: http://www.oscarfish.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=3 & this: http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/hith.shtml
The first thing I am going to do is get a nitrate test kit. I have NO idea why they don't include it in the "master kit" I bought. It tests PH (high and low), nitrite, ammonia, & hardness.....but they left out the nitrate for some reason.
I will also start trying to soak his food in vitamins as the last article mentions. It sucks that it is suddenly happening. He was a "perfect" oscar up until a month ago, with NO scarring or pits and was 8" long. Now this.... :( This is especially saddening since he is in a much better home with good filters (Emperor 400 and (2) Magnum 350's)...... I feel like I have screwed up somewhere and have got to find a way to fix Gulp up.
PumaWard
01-28-2004, 6:24 AM
Now this.... This is especially saddening since he is in a much better home with good filters (Emperor 400 and (2) Magnum 350's)...... I feel like I have screwed up somewhere and have got to find a way to fix Gulp up.
Don't lose heart, I had something similiar happen. My favorite fish, my female paradise fish, got dropsy shortly after I introduced her into my 38g. She died not long after.
I hope Gulp gets better, I think he will once you are able to find the cause and correct it. Best of luck :).
fish_e_o
01-28-2004, 8:03 PM
I had a case of hole in head with one of my discus and i went to the fish store and picked up some furan or furan 2 i can't remember but a week later he was swimming around and acting like it never happened
Just curious did he go thru an ammonia spike when you moved him to the 110?
Tim
Originally posted by 750t
Just curious did he go thru an ammonia spike when you moved him to the 110?
Tim
He did go through a couple of spikes. I tried to change the water every day (a few times I slipped and missed a day). I know there were a couple of times the "oh crap" thought went through my head though because of the ammonia level.
I wonder if thats what started the hith. Theres got to be a cure though just keep trying I know how attached you are to your fish. good luck...Tim
One theory for cause of HITH is from having stray current in the tank. You might want to try a grounding probe. They ground the tank from any stray electrical current that may be present (from heaters, filters, etc.). Even if you don't have this problem, for $10 or so it's worth knowing that you can rule this out.
Originally posted by NickH
One theory for cause of HITH is from having stray current in the tank. You might want to try a grounding probe. They ground the tank from any stray electrical current that may be present (from heaters, filters, etc.). Even if you don't have this problem, for $10 or so it's worth knowing that you can rule this out.
Is a grounding probe something I pick up at the LFS, or Home Depot? I am clueless about this. I will definitely try it though.
You may find it at the LFS. It is strictly for aquariums, so it's not like you'd find it in the hardware store. If you can't find one locally, look at bigalsonline.com or petwhse.com.
fish_e_o
01-30-2004, 9:58 PM
holes in the head is a common symptom of many things such as ammonia levels, to soft of water, stray currents (so I hear now), but most of the cases I have looked at were caused by a bacterial infection furan or furan 2 as I said kills both gram positive and gram negative bacteria I would give it a try at a lowered dose for a sustained amount of time (say half the dose for twice the time) like I said it worked for my discus. It also says in the article to add salt probably to kill bacteria and parisites. And as mentioned by daveedka clout is an anti bacterial anti fungal medication
I am going to get back into the habit of including salt in my water changes, but Gulp is a little too hard to handle at this point to move him into a smaller tank with a strong salt content. Just moving him to the 110 was an adventure.....and I had a pretty large net.
I will head to the LFS and try to find a grounding rod and some furan or furan 2 just to cover all the bases. The only problem I have is how the mass quantity of medication I will probably have to add to the 110 gallon. It will probably take a whole bottle for 1 days treatment. :p Thanks for all the advice.
Squint
01-31-2004, 2:46 PM
When my life got too busy and I got lax on the water changes, my Oscars got a mild case of HITH. Vacuuming the gravel and changing the filter media were the most time-consuming so I just did the water changes if I didn't have time and that made the most difference. I change 70-80% of the water every two weeks and the HITH went away once I got back on that schedule.
I have no grounding probe and very soft water. No meds or vitamins. I feed only Hikari gold.
If you're using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals nitrate tests, they read very low. It starts to register around 180 ppm. I discovered this when I was dosing a planted tank with nitrate so I knew there was nitrate in there but the test wasn't picking it up. I then got a Hagen kit and both my planted tank and Oscar tank were off the scale. I was wondering why I could feed the Oscars so much and have so little nitrate.
nimbusv
02-03-2004, 7:27 PM
Here's what i did when my oscar had HITH, i raised the temperature, add salt to the tank, fed him vitamined food, and the drastic thing was to take him out of the water, and put one drop of Mercuro-cromo (Don't know the word in english, but is like iodine), in each of the holes, injuries were healed in less than 10 days and has not presented any symptoms at all in 6 months.
Hope it helps
Originally posted by nimbusv
Here's what i did when my oscar had HITH, i raised the temperature, add salt to the tank, fed him vitamined food, and the drastic thing was to take him out of the water, and put one drop of Mercuro-cromo (Don't know the word in english, but is like iodine), in each of the holes, injuries were healed in less than 10 days and has not presented any symptoms at all in 6 months.
Hope it helps
How big was your oscar? For the life of me I can't figure out how I would get Gulp out of the water and keep him still enough to put on the medicine. When I moved him from his old tank to the new one........he was thrashing around like you wouldn't believe. Did you just let your oscar thrash until he ran out of stream? Just wondering if you have any tips before I try something like that. BTW, Gulp is a little over 9" now.
get a trout net, wrap him up in it, like it was a blanket. that should work. trout nets are bery silky so, it wont hurt him.
nimbusv
02-04-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Gulp
How big was your oscar? For the life of me I can't figure out how I would get Gulp out of the water and keep him still enough to put on the medicine. When I moved him from his old tank to the new one........he was thrashing around like you wouldn't believe. Did you just let your oscar thrash until he ran out of stream? Just wondering if you have any tips before I try something like that. BTW, Gulp is a little over 9" now.
At the time he was between 11" and 12", right now he's 13".
here's a pic of him last week
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/knopfler-Kubrick1.jpg
yes, use a trout net and it will be less trouble
Man that is one bright oscar. What do you feed him? I can't get the orange to "shine" on Gulp like your big boy.
nimbusv
02-04-2004, 11:52 AM
I feed him Tetra cichlid sticks, Wardley cichlid pellets, live crickets, live earthworms, live crawfish, shrimp, an ocasional feeder.
Hi Gulp :)
I actually joined this forum so I could reply to this thread. I have a juvenile tiger oscar (about 5.5" right now) and thankfully have not had to deal with HITH with on oscar yet, but I have successfully treated HITH on my oldest and dearest angelfish. Where are you located? I'm pretty sure metronidazole isn't available over the counter in the UK, but it is in North America. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals markets it in a product called General Cure. It's also found in Tetra Medicated Flake food. If you must get it through a pharmacy or vet, you want to dose at 125 mg per 10 gallons, treating every other day. I kept this up for 12 days (6 doses) and had complete success. I also did small daily water changes (5 - 10%) before adding the meds. As has already been mentioned, keep Gulp nice and warm, and I agree that adding 1 Tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water will help with healing, as well as aiding in respiration in the oxygen depleted water (the higher temps and meds both reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of the water).
If you want or need to 'net' Gulp in the future, consider 'netting' him in a brand new (no soap residue) pillow case. Also, you can hold him quite still with a wet towel. I know it's still no picnic, but I find it easier than trying to catch large fish in a little net with a long, skinny handle.
Hope this helps..
Thanks for the info Una. :D
tim_123
10-29-2005, 3:31 PM
i have an orange parrot fish that has hole in the head
has hole have slowed down and are not geting any bigger
i try heaps of things and every one said somthing different
i am still try to heal him and it has been 3 months i think
it is geting better,it is just the nitrates are to high and i don't over feed i do an 50% water change every 2 days ,i am 100%
sure he would be cured because nitrates are giving him 2nd infections of the disease.
this is what i tryed metro 400mg in an 20 litre tank every 2 days for 3 treatments i did 2 teatments after an week and when you treat the metro must do an 50% water change.
after you have treated the metro do another 50% change and use melafix until it heals and feed him food with heaps of vit c and raise the temperture to 27 a little salt will help.
it will take around 2 months to heal to normal just keep trying like i am and you will .good luck the fish is not in any pain with hole in the head so thats an good thing.
tim
i have an orange parrot fish that has hole in the head
has hole have slowed down and are not geting any bigger
i try heaps of things and every one said somthing different
i am still try to heal him and it has been 3 months i think
it is geting better,it is just the nitrates are to high and i don't over feed i do an 50% water change every 2 days ,i am 100%
sure he would be cured because nitrates are giving him 2nd infections of the disease.
this is what i tryed metro 400mg in an 20 litre tank every 2 days for 3 treatments i did 2 teatments after an week and when you treat the metro must do an 50% water change.
after you have treated the metro do another 50% change and use melafix until it heals and feed him food with heaps of vit c and raise the temperture to 27 a little salt will help.
it will take around 2 months to heal to normal just keep trying like i am and you will .good luck the fish is not in any pain with hole in the head so thats an good thing.
tim
I hope the HITH is already cured. :rolleyes:
SquirrelOsO
10-29-2005, 7:28 PM
im getting back into the cichlid craze again after 5 long years of being cichlidless. now im very afraid of hith disease, ive had cichlids with it before and it was horrible. no one died from it but it left them scarred and well just plain ugly. my plan is to keep the water very clean by doing once a month water changes of 50 percent, is this a bad idea? or is this the only way to prevent this disease? i keep reading there is no cure but one site i came across said that the prescription drug flagyl may work. i used to have flagyl in the house when my cats came down with giardia but i wonder how this drug could be given? mine was in a pill form, now i no oscars dont take pills lol
is there any way to prevent this disease from happening in the first place?
~*LuvMyKribs*~
10-29-2005, 9:57 PM
Ahhhh create a new thread! You'll get more responses if you just create a new thread with your own questions.
These threads have been laid to rest ages ago.... :duh:
;)
-Diana
ChileRelleno
10-29-2005, 10:42 PM
im getting back into the cichlid craze again after 5 long years of being cichlidless. now im very afraid of hith disease, ive had cichlids with it before and it was horrible. no one died from it but it left them scarred and well just plain ugly. my plan is to keep the water very clean by doing once a month water changes of 50 percent, is this a bad idea? or is this the only way to prevent this disease? i keep reading there is no cure but one site i came across said that the prescription drug flagyl may work. i used to have flagyl in the house when my cats came down with giardia but i wonder how this drug could be given? mine was in a pill form, now i no oscars dont take pills lol
is there any way to prevent this disease from happening in the first place?
Number one HITH cure (IMHO), this care is based on a
on a fish that already has a case of HITH.
(1)Water Quality
Get your water quality/chemistry perfect, NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3- 0/20ppm,
check your filters & clean'em if necessary (reduces alot of NO3), gravel vac & PWC, do small PWC's (25%) every other day.
Just about everyone will agree that bad water chemistry and HITH go together like apple pie -n- ice cream...
(2)Vitamin Supplements
Add liquid vitamin supplements to all food and vary their diet.
Soak or load everything you feed the fish with vitamins until cured and watch your water.
Vitamins that you add to your tanks water are worthless (IMO).
We use "Vita Chem", our fish get it regularly.
This particular brand is available at most on-line retailers and at better LFS's (We get ours at BigAls).
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=27489;category_id=3781;pcid 1=2911;pcid2=
(3) Supplementary treatment.
I would add a dose of salt to the tank, this helps lower stress, encourages slime-coat production and gill function amongst other things.
Also a dose of Melafix and Pimafix, these have been known to help healing.
(4)
Medicate,
Alot of folks blame Hexamita for HITH and thus treat for it with medications, BUT, studies have been done showing that Hex (and others) is/are a secondary infection/s (Whether or not Hexamita plays a key-role with HITH infections is controversial).
You need to do what "You" feel is right and correct after reseaching this for yourself, google "HITH causes prevention and cure" or some such, and visit Cichlid specific forums for more info.
Some folks also think that filter carbon plays a role with HITH...
It seems there are no absolutes as to the cause, but just like ICH there are many ways to treat it and proponenets/opponents of each treatment.
I say again though...
Perfect water quality and a varied nutritious diet supplemented with vitamins.
Here's a good article on HITH available here at Oscarfish,
http://www.oscarfish.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=3
This is how I treat/would treat my fish, this is my opinion, this is just my $0.02.
Preventive care for healthy fish,
(1) Test water chemistry atleast weekly,
I test bi-weekly.
Test NH3, NO2, NO3 are pretty much mandatory and testing PH, GH & KH regularly is a good thing too.
PWC's and GV's are best done weekly or as needed. Once a month WILL NOT suffice!
(2) Regularly supplement/soak food in a quality liquid vitamin, a quality multi-vitamin, not just some C.
I recommend atleast twice per week.
HTH.
daveedka
10-30-2005, 7:37 AM
Not sure why this thread was ressurrected, but Gulp is no longer among the swimming.
dave
telecubby
10-30-2005, 8:29 AM
had hole in the head long time ago on my big black shark just like discus get.went to lfs ,asked 4 meds ,don't remember the type but you couldn't tell he has big ugly hole in his head any mo.its totaly gone & years later he's fine.not even a scar .
SquirrelOsO
10-30-2005, 2:12 PM
Ahhhh create a new thread! You'll get more responses if you just create a new thread with your own questions.
These threads have been laid to rest ages ago.... :duh:
;)
-Diana
well to someone who just joined this forum a few days ago, its new. sorry if i havent been lurking around here for years to see this post over and over again.
with new comers your always gonna see the same things written, after all we all have the same questions at one time or another.
daveedka
10-30-2005, 7:10 PM
SquirrelOsO, I don't think anyone meant any offense, and I'm definately sure I didn't. A lot of folks don't read into old threads or follow them closely, so starting a new thread with you questions will get more people to read them and respond specifically to what you asked. You can copy and paste what you've already typed right on to a new thread with a new title and folks will be more apt to read it. As far as your questions that I can help with:
Hith is far easier to prevent than a lot of people seem to think. keep your nitrates low, make sure your fish have a healthy diet, and keep them in a big enough tank to house them comfortably and handle the bio-load they create.
I'm a firm believer that there is nothing to fear if you understand the typical causes and contributors to this disease. I have never ever had a case of HITH start in a fish I raised myself. I have adopted several fish with HITH back in the old Days, but never had it start on my own fish.
once a month 50% water changes would seem very inadequate to me, I change 60% a week and feed far less than most folks do. My nitrates still hover in the 10-20 range and I have live plants in my tank. I do have what I consider to be a crowded tank (see signature on 115g) , but by some folks standards it is virtually empty.
Nutrituon is extemely important. I avoid goldfish as a food source entirely, I feed a good quality cichlid pellet as a staple and supplement with live snails, shrimp, and guppies. I raise my own guppies and feed them sparingly so the fish do not become finicky about the pellets. I also feed a variety of frozen foods but not in any routine manner. Goldfish quite simply are low nutrition, high fat, and most Oscars you've ever seen with HITH were fed goldies at some point. Oscars do not need live food as a source of nutrition. they like live food, and I believe it is good for their personalities, and well being, but small guppies and snails will allow them to hunt without all of the waste and pollution created by larger feeders.
I've not done any research or heard anything on Flagyl. I gave up adopting sich fish, so I haven't had to deal with Hith since I re-entered the hobby. I do occasionally use liquid vitamins, but there is some controversy to how helpful they are really. If I had a fish With HITH I would definately supplement vitamins daily, but healthy fish on a good diet probably really don't need them IMO.
dave
SquirrelOsO
10-30-2005, 8:25 PM
im sorry
someone called me a troll before for no reason so i guess i still felt a little feisty
60 percent per week, i can do that. i wasnt sure if weekly was too much. but i got the python so this can be done easily.
i sorta forgot the days of hith and it wasnt until i read this post that it brought back memories of an oscar i had several years ago with it. no one at the time could help me, it was pre-computer days so i had to rely on petshop advice which wasnt very helpful
daveedka
10-30-2005, 8:56 PM
im sorry
someone called me a troll before for no reason so i guess i still felt a little feisty
Folks are a bit tense around here right now, we have several trolls working very hard, and we've had a couple go to the trouble of working around a ban to return and cause more trouble. So people seem to be quick on the draw with the T word. Things will settle down. People here are usually very friendly and inviting , and it's a great place to learn. I fought HITH for years and never knew what I was doing right to make it heal up. The internet is an amazing tool, and there is always more to learn.
dave