Lighting a big tank

[ROYWS3]

Can I get some feedback on lighting a 5 or 6 foot tank with PC. What would you guys suggest for each tank (lamp size and how many)?. I will be using pressurized CO2. The tank will be a room divider built into the wall; my wife and I are still debating the tank size and some other "trivial" decisions - furniture placement and whether we really need a tv - are sticking points. I like the idea of suspending the lights instead of using canopy. Any ideas on this as well?
Thanks,
ROY

[ROYWS3]

:confused: Anyone??

[cblin]

I guess you can go with suspended lighting although it's going to be more expensive, however at the same time, it might be easier to maintain your fish tank.

But I'd definitely look into canopy as well. You can probably go with 2 or 4 96W bulbs depending how deep and wide your tank is. However, either way, give it plenty of ventilation.

Just to advise you that if you decide to get a TV later on, you may want to go with the canopy route instead of suspending the lights, the lights will be too bright and will cause glare.



Originally posted by ROYWS3
Can I get some feedback on lighting a 5 or 6 foot tank with PC. What would you guys suggest for each tank (lamp size and how many)?. I will be using pressurized CO2. The tank will be a room divider built into the wall; my wife and I are still debating the tank size and some other "trivial" decisions - furniture placement and whether we really need a tv - are sticking points. I like the idea of suspending the lights instead of using canopy. Any ideas on this as well?
Thanks,
ROY

[Dopey]

Suspended lighting doesn't have to be more expensive... it can be cheaper. You're thinking suspended metal halide lighting, which IS expensive. With a six foot tank, you could suspend two AH Supply 2x96W bright kits, giving you in excess of 384 WPG.

One idea to cut costs is to a hybrid suspended/canopy. You have a "wall" on each side of your tank, above the tank (as opposed to resting on it.) Then the suspended lighting would be hidden "between" those walls, over the tank. "Walls" can be attached with magnetic stereo cabinet fasteners so they can easily pop off for maintenance.

[125gJoe]

How many gallons would the 5 or 6 foot tank hold..? Depth might matter some too.

[RTR]

I am confused - how does two each 2x96W (2x2x96=384) ever give in excess of 384WPG (watts per gallon) unless it possible to hang these over a less than one gallon tank? And would the water boil? ;)

[ROYWS3]

I am planning on using a stock size tank. A 125 or 135 - 72x18x22 or a standard 100 - 60x18x24. so theres the width and depth for those who were interested. I wasn't sure if I should use the 4x 96(384 watts) or 4x55 or 65 (220 and 260 respectively). Don't PC's have 3x the output of standard floursencent tubes? So the old standard of 3-5 watts of standard flo. lighting for a moderate to high light tank for the 125-135 would be ~400 watts standard total/3=~135 watts PC or is my thinking skewed and I still need the 3-5 watts for moderate to high lighting regardless of the lamp being standard or PC? I'll check back later and if this explination was confusing, I'll try to be more explanitory. Thanks to all.
ROY :confused:

[Dopey]

Oops. Hey, I never claimed to be a math major!!!

Well... in excess of 384 Watts total, then. ( I say in excess because AH Supply claims that the superior quality of their MIRO reflectors gives more usable light to the plants than bulbs in other reflectors.)

[RTR]

PC fluorescents are a bit more efficient than NO fluorescents, you get a bit more light per W of power used. Electronically ballasted lower wattage(32/34 vs. 40) T8 and T5 NO tubes have output comparable to a PC, as they are higher-efficiency as well. PC tubes are effectively folded T5 tubes. If you compare intensity directly under a 55W PC w/the Miro reflector versus a NO 40W in an aquarium strip, yes the intensity will be much greater from the PC -because it is a bit higher Wattage anyway, its footprint is much smaller, it has higher efficiency to start with, and it has a great reflector.

Good reflectors can and do make a big difference. The AH supply refelectors mentined earlier do not waste a lot of light from re-strike (light from the tube hitting the reflector and bouncing back to hit the tube again = wasted), and are very highly refective and configured to redirect the light downward into the tank, so net you have little waste and scatter. Most of the light produced ends up in the tank.

You also have an effect that large tanks do not require the same intensity as small tanks. You will get the same or better growth from less input compared to 29/55 for example, and much better than compared to a 10 or smaller tanks.

But PC cannot be compared to NO by a factor such as 3x, that is not correct.

HTH

[ROYWS3]

So is 4x 96 overkill?? Is 2x96 0r 4x55 or 65 more appropriate and enough for either the 60x18 or the 72x18. I'm getting then impression from you guys that it will be. BTW, I've heard nothing but good things about AH Supply, and am giving them serious consideration when that time comes.
Thanks,
ROY

[RTR]

How experienced a plant grower are you? If you go past 3W/gal PC w/good reflectors you are going to be driving the plants very hard and fast, so will have to do multiple frequent supplements to keep nutrition up to light available. If it were my tank I'd juggle the tubes selected to stay below 3W/gallon, likely 2 - 2 1/2W/gal. then w/CO2 and other mineral supplements you have a bit more cushion for fine tuning without running on the edge all the time but strong and reasonably fast growth.

Have you ever read any of George Booth's stuff? He advocated that sort of program years ago and was largely ignored or scoffed at in favor of more wattage and higher feeding rates. Now many folks are coming to agree that George was very close all this time and are changing to less intense light.

http://www.frii.com/~gbooth/AquaticConcepts/

[ROYWS3]

;) RTR, I've been doing that sort of thing for about fifteen years now with great results BUT with NO tubes -suplemental pressurized CO2 and minimal daily dosing of commercial ferts, using Booth's ideas that were published in FAMA around that time. I haven't had a tank up and running now for over a year because my wife and I sold our house back then and we are totally renovating our new one. I've never used PC before, so that was the main jist of my original question. You've confirmed what I've been thinking all along. I want a tank thats going to look great and exhibit strong growth BUT not have to be pruned every other day because the growth is "explosive". Thanks for the link. . . Thanks for everything.
ROY

[plantbrain]

For the 135 option:

A good method is using only one bank of the lights for 4-6 hours and then the other for the whole day's 10-12 hour peroid.
Bend the reflectors out so they spread out more and strike most of the floor, the reflectors from A&H are narrow so they will shine well on a small band, but if you have fewer bulbs, bending the reflectors outwards some will spread the light out better

If you plan on this, built into the wall, CO2 gas tank, Flourite, Onyx sand substrate etc, you can do well with this set up.
You can go with 6x 55w also or for the 100 gal, 4x 55w.

I'd go for the 135, 4x 96w and then up the lighting after the tank is well grown in and you have a good feel for everything, till then, just use the 2x96w and see how you like it. Then you can add more light with the other bank.
You are right on the border line with light but 2x 96 w will grow most things, 260w on a 125 gal grows anything I know of.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[RTR]

Roy - Just FYI if you have not been back on the boards for long - Tom Barr/Plantbrain is currently one of the horse's mouth folk in the planted tank world, you are quite safe following his advice. He has even gotten an old coot like me to change a few of my techniques...;) Not all, I'm still a holdout on some things...:o

[plantbrain]

Actually RTR, I have coyote breath, not horse breath:-)

Regards,
Tom Barr

[RTR]

Is that from swimming with mantees, or from eating hydrilla? :D

[slipknottin]

I wouldnt use PC at all. I hate PC bulbs. Use VHO, HO T5, or MH (which isnt that much more expensive at all really)

[ROYWS3]

Slip - Don't those lamps you mention need changing more frequently than PC? I was under the impression that they do. . . PC's having a much longer useful life that VHO or halide lamps. Don't know much about the T5's however. . . aren't PC's just a bent U-shaped T5?
RTR - yes Tom was around when I was here posting much more than I do currently. I always read with great interest what Tom has to say. He and I even had a discussion of Owen Jefferies from "the old days" of FAMA. Owen was one of the contributing editors in FAMA in the late 80's - early 90's, who IMO really contributed to what planted tanks have become today. He and his column just disappeared one month and no one seems to know why. . . it's still a mystery after all these years.
ROY

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by ROYWS3
Slip - Don't those lamps you mention need changing more frequently than PC? I was under the impression that they do. . . PC's having a much longer useful life that VHO or halide lamps. Don't know much about the T5's however. . . aren't PC's just a bent U-shaped T5?

PCs need to be replaced about once a year, certain MH bulbs can last ~16 months. VHO bulbs last about 8 months, but are generally cheaper than CF bulbs.

CFs are usually T6's bent in half. The bending causes alot of light loss for two reasons, 1. the brighest part of fluorescent bulbs is the middle of the bulb, and that part is cut in half on CFs, and 2. The two parts of the bulb are so close that it is impossible to direct all the light downward as you can do with linear (straight line) fluorescents.

T5 bulbs should last at least 18 months.

[RTR]

Tom Barr holds that PCs last indefinitely, but most folks don't seem to push that. The abillity to direct light downward for PCs, as for NOs and HOs & VHOs, is a function of the reflector. IMHO, the AHSupply Miro relector is by a substantial margin the best on the market for directing light downward into the tank.

Also IMHO & IME HO & VHO is dying technology, and I will not miss it a bit. Others still using such are welcome to it.

[plantbrain]

MY PC bulbs are an average of 4-5 years old right now.
Anyone that has "young" bulbs in the 1-3 year range, I'd be happy to take them off your hands and pay for shipping:)

T-5 lights seem as bit too expensive yet from the prices I've seen or maybe relatively close to that of PC's. I know a number of folks that are using them but they seem over priced still in this country. A number of folks over seas have been getting better prices and availability(vs PC lighting) so it's become popular there.

MH's vs PC are an apples and oranges issue. I can set up a MH tank pretty easily and cheaply, but the bulbs are large and yes you can get electronic ballast if you don't like the hum and improve the efficiency etc, I like the Double ended bulbs with an electronic ballast, but go check out how much all that cost:)
That's likely what I'll have on most of my tanks later, when I'm done with school.

RTR, I brush with an algae scrub pad.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by RTR

Also IMHO & IME HO & VHO is dying technology,

How exactly is that dying technology? What is it being replaced with? :confused:

If anything CFs are on the way out.

And yes, reflecting the bulbs light into the tank is a function of the reflector, and also the bulb, the two parts of the CF bulbs are too close together to have the light reflected downwards.

[plantbrain]

I think we will see the T-5 come into their own but they are expensive still yet, but I'd expect to see the cost drop in the near future.
I'd like to see the Electronic ballast cost for MH's drop and more double ended bulbs made cheaper also.

They have small high tech looking MH European style German made 150w pendents for 150$ that are smaller and use the 150w double end bulb which look quite nice.
See www.aquaticeco.com
These look much better than those big globes by Hamilton and Coralife.
They have a great deal of products from large commericial applications but also have a lot of smaller goodies.

For now, the PC are a good value for their usefulness.
I do not think we'll will see anything replace anything for awhile yet.

VHO's, HO etc will be used for a few more years and folks can use the regular NO bulbs on those and over drive things if they want.

But overall for now, the PC still seem to beat out the T-5's.
For a 4 bulb set up over 24" the bulb cost run 24w at 24$ ea.
So that's 96$ for 96 watts for a bulb!
The 36: bulbs run 27$ and are 39 w so it's still close to 2x as much.
Compared to a 40$ 96 PC bulb.
The Fixture runs 300$ for 4 x 24 w. The same fixture for a pair of 96 w runs 100-130$ or completely built with lamps for 240$ vs 400$ for the T-5.

I do like the straight bulb shape and evenness of the lighting spread and also the potential for plant folks to use less light that's well distributed, but, they need to make these lights ___cheaper__ before I pay for less watts that are not much better than these.

Over all, I much prefer the HQI small double ends lights and small low profile fixtures.

With electronic ballast, these are hard to beat on looks, light and efficiency but they cost more.

You might be able to hunt around and find less, but the general market suggest the T-5 are still too pricy still.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[slipknottin]

T5's have only been in the US aquarium market for around a year now. There is only a handful of bulb makers.(3 I believe) When more companies start making the bulbs the prices will drop, probably lower than CFs, since they are cheaper to manufacturer.

As for MH, the HQI setups are really starting to catch on, and there are 3 or 4 companies making Electronic ballasts, prices should drop pretty nicely on both HQIs and E-ballasts this year and next.

[Robert H]

What brand PC, CF, (tomatoe, tomato) lamps are you using that lasts 4 or 5 years? The PC bulbs I got from AH supply became seriously dimmer after a year and a half. After 11 months my coralife PC bulbs became noticeably dimmer, and my JBJ PC bulbs became 50% less bright with the ends of the bulb turning black after 7 or 8 months.

I asked JBJ if this was normal, and they told me that 8 or 10 years ago when PC bulbs first came out manufacturers made big claims about the bulbs lasting for years and years, but he said time has shown this was all hype and PC bulbs last just as long as any other flourescent, peaking at six months. He told me companies are making the same claims about T5s now as they did about PCs, but the same thing will happen.

I can see my tanks getting darker, and when I changed the lights I was shocked at how brighter it was with fresh bulbs.

[125gJoe]

I like my PC bulbs and would reccommend others to at least look into them. They are brighter watt for watt than regular 'aquarium' flourescent tubes - and I think that confuses some about the 'watts per gallon' issue. I also agree that PC bulbs will be the main type in use by aquarists in the future. While other vague named and hard to find bulbs will be found at "swap meets" and antique stores... :D ----joking, but still, you never know... !

Bring on the PC's and all thier different shapes, K's and outputs!

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Robert H
He told me companies are making the same claims about T5s now as they did about PCs, but the same thing will happen.


Except that T5s have been out and avaliable in Europre for some time now, and they have done CF comparisons and the T5 bulbs have held their initial light output far longer than CFs. Overall bulb life should be a bit better, but very few people run their bulbs until they burn out.

[Captain Hook]

The 55 watt power compact bulb I am planning on buying has an average life of "12,000 hours". This works out to be about 3.25 years at 10 hours per day.

I have heard all sorts of different info on when aquarium bulbs should be changed. I still don't know what to believe.

[Robert H]

The rated life of a bulb is until it burns out completely, but long before it burns out, it looses intensity and becomes weaker and weaker. That is why everywhere you read it says to replace standard flourescents every six months. Thats because on average, after 6 months these bulbs have reached their peak and begin to get dimmer and dimmer.

I can tell you my experience with power compacts from three different manufactuers, ( I have over 20 tanks) is they all become very weak within a year.

That is why I asked what brand Tom is using that lasts four years. Take his four year old bulbs and look straight at them and you will barely have to squint. Stare at brand new bulbs and it will be like looking into the sun.

Slip... PCs are a lot cheaper than any you mentioned...

VHOS, when I had a VHO system a few years ago, 48" bulbs were around $35 a peice. An Ice cap 440 ballast as I remember was over $200. Then you need end caps, wiring harness...

HO lamps only come in 8 feet at stores like Home Depot, Lowes, whatever. If they make them any smaller than 8 feet, you can only get them at very specialty lighting stores, and they are expensive. The bulbs are almost as much as VHOs. I searched and searched for smaller HO tubes, like 4ft to use in my store. I could not find any anywhere.

Metal Halides.... run anywhere from $70 to well over $100 just for the bulb. Then you need to buy the ballast, and the fixture. Most complete units I have seen are over $400. And for a big tank you would want two or three of them. Look at the prices for the combo units that have both MH and PCs, they are over $800!!!

T5 fixtures are ridiculously expensive in the USA, and I have not seen anything to justify the price

[ROYWS3]

Thank's to everyone for turning this into a very interesting as well as informative thread. I, for one am gleaning a ton of info from it.
ROY

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Robert H

Slip... PCs are a lot cheaper than any you mentioned...
$25 for a 55 watt, $35 for a 96.


VHOS, when I had a VHO system a few years ago, 48" bulbs were around $35 a peice. An Ice cap 440 ballast as I remember was over $200. Then you need end caps, wiring harness...
You need wiring harness and end caps and a ballast no matter what you get.

110 watt VHO- $25


Metal Halides.... run anywhere from $70 to well over $100 just for the bulb. Then you need to buy the ballast, and the fixture.
And if you price all the lighting options out per watt, MH beats them all. I setup 2x400 watt MH for just about $300. 800 watts of lighting in CF would be ~$700, in VHO it would be $600, and T5 would be $800.


T5 fixtures are ridiculously expensive in the USA, and I have not seen anything to justify the price

A 4 lamp retrofit (including bulbs) is $200... About the same as a 2x96 watt PC kit, and puts out quite a bit more light.