Cycle

[countrygirl]

We are setting up a brand new 250 gallon aquarium. We can put water in it tommorrow. I am getting driven crazy here because the guy at the pet store said to use Cycle, it is a great product, it will help the Nirogen cycle along and make the transition easier for your fish, he said he was going to give us some gunk from the tanks in the store to help get the process along too, so we could bring our fish home this weekend. GREAT YEA!!!! RIGHT?

Well not the built the aquarium said do not use Cycle it is crap and can actually kill the bacteria you want in the aquarium gravel. He said do not bring the fish home, put the three bala sharks in there and that is it let the amonia go up up up up and then when the amonia drops add the other fish. Also do not mess with water changes, leave it alone

Ok I have other aquariums and I have been very successful using cycle at the beginning and then every week thereafter. I do a 25% water change after 4 days, after 8 days and then every week thereafter, that gets me through the 30 day period and I water change once a month after that. This has worked very well for me, so it is what I want to do this time.

I don't know what the right thing to do is, I don't want to lose any fish but I want my fish home, they have been paid for for two months now. HELP!!!!

[SP2]

This is only my opinion!! Take the gunk from the established tank(the more the better)........take a just a couple of fish. Wait a week or two, do your water changes. Wait and check your water. You know what your looking for right.??? Then just add fish slowly over time. My opinion is that cycle is snake oil....would never use it, but what the heck do I know. I dont know how many fish you have paid for for a 250 gallon tank but you are crazy if dump a ton of fish into a new tank.

[countrygirl]

thank you, there are 3 balas, one blue acara, one motoro stingray and one leopaldi stingray

[Richer]

You have some pretty expensive fish there (it is here anyways), personally, I wouldn't chance anything but a fishless cycle. Read this article http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html that should get you started on doing a fishless cycle for your 250 gallon tank. Stay away from things like "cycle." I've tried it before, and it didn't do anything to speed my cycles along.

If you want to make sure those fish don't die, leave them at the LFS for a few more weeks while you get your tank ready (via a fishless cycle).

-Richer

[JesseJ]

I would make sure the tank is fully cycled before getting any fish. Do a fishless cycle like Richer suggested. I have used Cycle in my tanks and I find that it is useful at startup but after that I don't use it. The sponge squeeze is sketchy to me. I wouldn't be comfortable taking it unless I was really really sure that I had a competent LFS giving it to me. The guy you talked to probibly just wanted you to buy stuff that day which is why he said it would work. It would be better for your fish if you got the bacteria started and were sure it was doing fine and could handle all the wastes before you got the fish into the tank.

If I had a 250 G (mmmmm......... big tank.....) GAH where did all this drool come from?........ Anyways I couldn't wait to load it with fish but waiting would be better if you can do it.

[JSchmidt]

If I knew the tank(s) to be healthy, I would much rather get some cultured gravel or filter squeezings to start a cycle. Those both have the actual bacteria responsible for oxidizing ammonia/nitrite, unlike Cycle...

Jim

[greenterrorrr]

IMO the best way is to set the tank up and fill it with water. Let that run for a day or so and then get some fish to add in there and start the cycle. I've cycled plenty of tanks including a 150 gallon and have never used fishless cycling. I very rarely loose a fish I got to cycle with.

[TKOS]

Just a couple of things to mention.

While Cycle doesn't really work, I doubt it will kill your bacteria. If anything it just does nothing but waste your money.

If you do a fishy cycle then I highly suggest not letting your ammonia levels get above 1ppm and nitrite levels above 0.25 ppm. Don't let them climb and then drop. That will at worst kill your fish and at best leave them weak and prone to disease and a short life.

With expensive fish like that buy a Master test Kit and make sure the levels never climb above what I mentioned. Keep it lower if possible with water changes with a good dechlorinator.

If you do go the fishy cycle way then make sure to add the fish slowly and as long as ammonia levels keep climbing between water changes then do not add more fish yet. And feel free to add some gravel or filter media from an established tank. Just adding water or a squeeze of gunk really won't do much though.

[Richer]

Very rarely doesn't mean no fish die. I have never lost a fish in a fishless cycle... because no fish are involved.

Lets break it down a bit:

Cycling with fish:
What does it involve? Sticking a few hardy fish into a tank, and letting the ammonia the fish naturally (and decaying fish food) produce start up the cycle.

Pros:
-You have fish in the tank right from the beginning.
-The tank will cycle successfully.

Cons:
-The fish have to swim in water containing detectable levels of ammonia/nitrite. This leads to the possibility that the fish may contract diseases, infections, etc. because their immune systems may take a hit from the ammonia/nitrite. Exposure to ammonia/nitrite may also reduce fish lifespan.
-The constant water changing that is necessary to reduce ammonia/nitrite levels to a less toxic level, so that your cycling fish can survive.
-The fish you use must be hardy fish so that they can survive the cycle. What will happen if those fish aren't part of your stocking plan? Will you return them? What if the fishstore will not accept them?
-Even a complete cycle isn't complete. Fish have to be introduced slowly to the tank. Introducing too many fish at once will upset the balance of the tank. Remember that the tank only has enough bacterial colonies to convert the waste of a few fish, not a full load of fish.

Fishless Cycle:
What does it involve? Buying ammonia from a store, adding this ammonia to a tank till you get an ammonia level of about 5ppm. The ammonia added will start the cycle.

Pros:
-Spares fish from swimming in water containing detectable levels of ammonia/nitrite. Which prevents any of the ammonia/nitrite related problems a fish may get.
-Cycling a tank on 5ppm of ammonia will give the aquarist a large margin of error for fish stocking. Unless a person really packs a tank, fish will never produce enough ammonia to get an ammonia reading of 5ppm. In turn, this allows the aquarist to fully stock a tank after a successful cycle.
-A few people have said that fishless cycling actually speed up how quickly a tank will cycle.
-Like a fish cycle, it will cycle a tank successfully.

Cons:
-One very large water change at the end of the cycle is needed, to remove the large levels of nitrates that are probably in the water. Still... not as bad as doing multiple water changes during a fish cycle.
-You will have to look at an empty tank for 2-3 weeks.


Seems to me that a fishless cycle is the clear winner. I probably missed some stuff, but that is the general gist of it.

HTH
-Richer

[TKOS]

Good post, though I would have to say that it can generally take up to 4-5 weeks to finish a fishless cycle. That seems to be the norm for posts I have seen around here.

[JSchmidt]

Great post, Richer. I'd add to the cons of fishy cycling that fish cycling may cause permanent damage to sensitive gill tissue from ammonia burns, and the discomfort the fish feel from swimming in toxins.

There are certainly greater evils in the world than cycling with fish, and some folks who practice fishy cycling are no doubt extremely conscientious to minimize damage/discomfort to the fish. Newbies are much more likely to err during cycling, though, and expose fish to dangerous level of toxins. Even worse, the idea of using 'cycling fish" seems to promote the idea that some fish are more or less disposable, an idea I find in opposition to the feelings that make me want to keep these creatures as pets.

Jim

[TKOS]

Cycling fish is one of my biggest pet peeves. I have even heard of stores that tell you to bring your danios back after they have been through the cycle so they can sell them to others for the same purpose.

My current tanks were fishy cycled, but I also had them stuffed with fast growing stem plants and did many water changes. Over a year later they are still very healthy. But I agree that without proper knowledge you will more than likely damage your fish or kill them. My next tank will be a fishless cycle.

[countrygirl]

Okay don't throw stones at me too hard, I know I shouldn't have brought my babies home BUT I DID, call me impatient call me whatever you want, but I promise I will be very very careful and check the water levels religiously. Here is what we did. We filled the tank last night added aquasafe and cycle and let if sit for a couple of hours until it got to 75 degrees. Then I added a smallish (For this tank) Berney's Shark, a Fire Eel, and two angelfish. Then this afternoon we went to the fish store where our poor fish have been waiting for two months on hold. We picked them all up. A motoro stingray, a leopaldi stingray, a large Blue Acara and three large Bala sharks.

They gave us the gunk from the filter to add to our wet/dry system. Guess what they found in the filter when they did that? A baby Acara (the other large acara in the tank had died) So they gave him to us for free he is about 3 inches long and an inch and a half wide. I can't believe he lived in the filter all that time. But they gave him to us free. He is so sweet.

When we got home we added the gunk directly to the wet/dry system to start the bioballs off. Then we floated the fish for 20 minutes and added them all to the tank. So far so good. I then went and picked up some feeder fish and shrimp pellets and boy did these guys eat them all. Good sign, I think, means they aren't too stressed out so far I think.

So this is what we have in there:

1 fire eel
1 Berney's Shark
1 Motoro Stingray
1 Leopaldi Stingray
2 Angelfish
2 Acaras
3 Balas

[Richer]

Alright... what's done is done I suppose.

You have introduced a large load to an uncycle tank... prepare for equally large ammonia spikes. Do large water changes _every_ day without exception. Reduce on the amount of food you feed your fish. Fish don't need much to eat. My 66 gallon Malawi tank only gets fed a few pellets and a few flakes once every 2 days, and my fish are thriving (the fish have bred countless times). I must re-emphasize, you _cannot_ slack off on the water changes. You have expensive (and nice) fish in your tank, you cannot risk losing nor injurying them.

Forget about feeder fish, unless you breed your own, you are only introducing fish with potential diseases to your tank.

*edit*
If you can find a friend, or whoever who has multiple filters on a _healthy_ tank, ask to take one of the sponges/bio media off of the filter and stick it into your filter, that should help things out a little bit.

HTH
-Richer

[countrygirl]

I will be careful. I get so much different information from so many different people. Some say don't bother with the water changes because of the size of the tank, type of filter and siz of pump. Some, like you say do it EVERY DAY without fail. Yikes don't know what to do. I will keep a very close eye on the levels and test the water every day, if I even have a slight discoloration on the amonia test I will do a 25% water change.

I have learned quite a bit about cycling through all of this. My son's 30 gallon aquarium he got for Christmas I water changed on the 4th day, the 8th day, then every week, once a month went by I reduced the water changes to whenever the water got cloudy. Now I change the water once a month and his tank is chrystal clear and so healthy we have a breeding pair of Angelfish in there already.

I have even had people tell me to overfeed the fish like crazy so the bacteria will grow faster, and people tell me to barely feed them so they don't produce much waste. It's so hard to know what to do.

[countrygirl]

Well it is day 3 and good news. All fish are fine and active. We have done a 25% water change yesterday and today and testing the water with my kit tells me pH 7.4, Ammonia 0 and Nitrates 0. The guy that built the tank took some water and tested it on his expensive machine and he said good news. Amonia 0.1 Nitrates 0.24 and pH 7.2. The water is cloudy though. We have a filter in the prefilter that looks like quilting batting and we are changing that every two hours. Hopefully the bioballs will get populated with bacteria fast since we added the gunk from the filter of the tank my fish were in at the pet store; directly to the wet/dry filter.

[copeina]

Day 3 isn't even the begining of a tank cycle. It is a 4 - 6 week process. Just wait until day 13, then you'll be wishing you hadn't been so hasty in stocking the tank.

While changing water will keep the spikes to (hopefully) sub-lethal levels, it will also lengthen the cycling process because it reduces the concentration of available bacteria food. It is kind of a good/bad way to start out. Plan on at least a 6 week cycle using this method.

BTW, where are you located? Locally, stingrays are like $150 a pop, and I think the leopoldi is closer to $300! That's quite the expensive taste for a self-proclaimed 'newbie' unsure of how to cycle a tank. :confused:

Good luck. You'll need it.
/Douglas

[TKOS]

I have to agree that you should be doign daily water changes. As for your sons tank, just because the water is crystal clear doesn't mean the water doesn't need changing. Not to sound mean or jumpy or anything but there things liek nitrates don't make the water cloudy and at high levels are toxic. That 30 gallon tank needs weekly water changes. Also the metabolic process that breaks nitrogen down creates acids which eat away at the buffer in a tank and will eventually drop your pH.

And one more quick little tid bit, hardy fish can easily withstand a 20 minute float int he fish store bag but generally acclimation should take at least an hour as you slowly take a little water out of the bag and replace it with a small amount of fish tank water. Temp isn't the only thing to acclimate for, water quality (ph, hardness etc...) is just as important.

[kveeti]

copeina makes a great point about being overly optimistic on Day 3.

However, I have a differing view on water changes and cycle lengths, based on what I have read by people a lot more knowledgeable than myself. As long as there is ammonia detected by the test kit, the bacteria will continue to grow simply because the ammonia is excessive. A higher ammonia reading does not make their metabolism/reproduction speed up. They will continue to multiply at their own pace as long as excess 'food' is present. Water changes help the fish. As long as water changes dilute the ammonia to almost 0 (but not 0) the cycle process will not take longer.

[JSchmidt]

I agree totally with Kveeti. In addition, there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that higher ammonia levels might inhibit development of nitrite-eaters.

As long as you have ammonia in excess of what the nitrifiers can eat, they will grow in number.

Jim

[TKOS]

And most aquarium test kits are not sensitive enough to meausre all of the ammonia present. So even it it registers 0ppm then chances are there is still a little left. But with your fish load that won't be the case right off. And don't forget to test your ammonia after a water change as well. a 25% water change will cut the total amount of ammonia by 25% not a finite number. You still have to get it below 1ppm so on some days 2 water changes may be needed.

With lots of diligence your fish should do fine.

[daveedka]

And don't forget to test your ammonia after a water change as well.

My thoughts after reading these threads:
This quote is the key to all of this, and to the 30g as well, constant testing during your cycle is what matters, then you can figure out what to do based on your test numbers. the same with an estabilished tank. Many people get caught up in do's and don'ts, and in how long a cycle takes etc. There are many true facts stated in this thread, and a few slighly skewed by mis-conceptions. The gunk from the pet store filter, might have been enough to instant cycle the tank, This is one of the few plus's you have going with your current situation. the easy way to tell is to test constantly. Yes water changes slow the cycle time, but you have fish in there already, and their health through the cycle is most important. 6 weeks at very low ammonia levels is far less damaging IMO than 2 days at 4ppm. Since you aren't trying to hurry the cycle so you can get your fish, it really shoudn't matter how long it takes as long as your fish aren't subjected to spikes. I have cycled tanks in 1 week and sometimes it takes 6 weeks depending on bio-load and filter type. I have done fishy cycle's where there never was a significant spike, I know there wasn't because I tested twice a day throughout the cycle. With the gunk from the pet store filter in place, you essentially have your bacteria. The cyle is technically complete (assuming gunk means media of some kind)each type of bacteria that you need is in there, your worry is that your bio-load may be too high for the amount bacteria you have and it needs time to reproduce and expand its populaation. You simply added too many fish to a tank with questionable bacteria present. very risky, but what is done is done as Richer said. test ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, PH, and hardness at least once a day, and control any fluctuations with water changes. Keep a chart or list of test times and results so you have an accurate pattern. As was said, test before and after the water change and make sure you did a big enough change to keep toxin levels low. I have never kept stingrays myself, but I do know that they are said to be EXTREMELY sensative to water quality. They are absolutely awesome animals.
Good luck, I sincerely hope this works for you, and you never put yourself through it again.

[copeina]

Originally posted by daveedka
Good luck, I sincerely hope this works for you, and you never put yourself through it again.

:) Well said.

[copeina]

CountryGirl - It is now day 11. How's the tank doing?

:dance

[countrygirl]

I just wanted to let you all know that it is now Day 12 and all is still well. We have had increases in ammonia levels but never over 1.2 which we bring down by doing partial water changes and adding a bag of ammocarb to the wet/dry system. The fish seem to be healthy and happy and eating well.

Thanks to everyone for all of your help. Also I just wanted to say that I am not a newbie, I have had aquariums for over 5 years now. I guess I would say I am more a newbie at knowing about cycling.

[QCppg]

I've been doing this for years without knowing a thing about "cycling." What I would always do was to add a couple tablespoons of gravel from an established, desease-free tank and wait a few days. Then I'd add a single 1-inch goldfish and some plants. After a week or so I'd add a few more fish, and so on. I have no access to a nitrate test kit (I've never seen one at the LFS) but this seems to work well enough.

[silentskream]

one thing i'd like to suggest is that if you have a used filter cartridge or filter material from another tank that can fit into the new tank, USE IT.

i'm cycling my 55 gallon tank right now (fishless cycling), and i was told to use Cycle, and it seemed like absolutely nothing happened until i put a used filter cartridge from my 20gal tank's Whisper power filter in the 55gal whisper filter box.

since then, the ammonia has dropped in half, (and its only been 3 days) depending on how the nitrite levels go, i'm expecting i'll be able to have fish in the tank very soon.


The great thing about fishless cycling, is that no fish are harmed at all. not only that, but you can add all the fish at once, which means they all have an equal chance at growth and territory. if i did the common add one cheap fish every so often until its safe, then every one of those fish would be affected by the ammonia levels, which could greatly reduce the lifespan of the fish.

i'd rather spend a dollar on ammonia than spend any money or time killing my fish.

[LongTime]

Originally posted by countrygirl
I will keep a very close eye on the levels and test the water every day, if I even have a slight discoloration on the ammonia test I will do a 25% water change.

II have even had people tell me to overfeed the fish like crazy so the bacteria will grow faster, and people tell me to barely feed them so they don't produce much waste. It's so hard to know what to do.

You are a lot braver than I:eek: I don't know how you are going to avoid a ammonia spike with those many fish in a new tank.

Yes, it is hard to know what to do because there are so many different opinions and each has worked for the one giving that opinion. I would never advocate overfeeding the fish for any reason.

I tend to do a fish-less cycle because it is easier on me and on the fish, but I have also done a fishy cycle. At that time I had Oscars and I was setting up a new tank. I put a feeder goldfish in the new tank. After the cycle he went to the oscars.

[daveedka]

countrygirl,
Just curious ifthings are still going well, Any hiccups etc.


Yes, it is hard to know what to do because there are so many different opinions and each has worked for the one giving that opinion. I would never advocate overfeeding the fish for any reason.

One of the nice things about this board is the advice usually always put the well being of the fish first. A lot of advice that is given does not. In this case overfeeding is used to create an ammonia spike to speed up the cycle, and the health of the fish is deisregarded. One of the things I try to do with any reccomendation is understand the process it creates, try to see the pro's and con's and then decide for myself whether or not to incorporate it. I know I can save some cycle time at the expense of my fish, but don't chose to because I like my fish, and more importantly I firmly believe we have a responsibility to any animal we house to provide them with a decent environment to live in. As the old saying goes "there is more than one way to skin a cat"
And as my dad always said "there are only a couple of good ways to skin a cat, but the rest will get the job done I guess" ( I hope most people know this saying comes from a fisherman, not a feline chef)

[pinballqueen]

Originally posted by countrygirl
I just wanted to let you all know that it is now Day 12 and all is still well. We have had increases in ammonia levels but never over 1.2 which we bring down by doing partial water changes and adding a bag of ammocarb to the wet/dry system. The fish seem to be healthy and happy and eating well.

Thanks to everyone for all of your help. Also I just wanted to say that I am not a newbie, I have had aquariums for over 5 years now. I guess I would say I am more a newbie at knowing about cycling.

Be really careful about removing the ammonia from your tank with ammocarb... it will defeat the purpose... while ammonia is lethal to fish, ammonia-consuming bacteria are what you are trying to establish and if you remove it all chemically, you can halt the process.

The trick is keeping the fish relatively comfortable without completely stopping the process...

But, it looks like you're not doin too bad :) You're still not over the hump, though, so keep a watchful eye on those readings. I would hate to hear of any of those very pricey fish passing away :(

/drools over cg's tank....

[RTR]

daveedka wrote:

"Yes water changes slow the cycle time,..."

Sorry, but this is another of those misconceptions mentioned. So long as there is unoxidized ammonia or nitrite in the tank water, even below that detectable by hobby kits, the ammonia-oxidizing or nitrite-oxidizing bacteria will be at maximum growth rate. Reducing the titer of either to or just below minimum detectable levels will not slow the multiplication of the bacteria at all. These are slow-growing/multiplying bacteria, it is easy to saturate the system.

What will be affected is the total end colony size. Fishless cycling aims at a colony size capable of oxidizing ~2.5ppm ammonia through to nitrate within less than 24 hours. That is a comfortable margin of safety past any reasonable stocking level, even with overfeeding.

Cycling with fish, and maintaining lower titers to protect the fish from injury, will minimize the colony size to the bioload present at the moment, period.

Key difference. If I have not explained it well enough, let me know and I'll try again.

[daveedka]

RTR,
I understand what you are saying to some extent, but still have a quetion.
On the gronds that bacteria like many things will reproduce to consume the available food source:
If the loweing of titers does not slow the cycle to some extent, what is the need or reason for going up to 5 ppm ammonia on a fishless. My observation ( with a lot of variables) was that my fishless ran faster than my fishy cycles. If I understood you correctly, It would make more sense to start a fishless cycle at 1ppm and increase the titer towards the end of the cycle rather than the opposite.

I do know that water changes won't hurt or stall a cycle but also have believed that reducing levels to undetectable seemed to add 7-10 days to completion. As always, I'm trying to learn what I have yet to know.

[RTR]

Ammonia and nitrite are to nitrification bacteria what carbs are to people (or were prior to no-carb diets). They are energy source rather than biomass building blocks. The uptake/oxidation process saturates more than an order of magnitude below the lowest detectable inexpensive hobby test level. These bacteria are among the slowest-growing I have ever worked with - the population doubling time is comparable to most mammalian cell culture more than to the average bacterial cell culture.

The titer does control the terminal colony size. The biomass of either/both species must be much larger to oxidize 3ppm ammonia than to oxidize 1ppm ammonia or 0.1ppm ammonia. That should be self-evident, each component cell can intake and oxidize only a small and defineable quantity of reduced nitrogen metabolite. This is where the difference in fish and fishless hits. With fishless, you can provide/develop sufficient nitrification bacteria biomass to fully oxidize metabolites from even what will be an overcrowded tank prior to the introduction of fish. That is done by higher titer of the metabolites - with fish, that would involve gill damage or suffocation to operate at those levels, so the colonies slow down their division - there may not always be surplus metabolite for them to grab- the total colony size is restricted. If your tank is optimized for biofitration (IME Canisters w/bioballs or FBF) that restriction is less likely to occur as those techniqes allow maximum colony exposure to metabolite and oxygen, plus the minerals, etc required for real tissue building. But you cannot say that the technique requires optimum biofilter conditions - that was a non-trivial requirement for the technique. Novices (or anyone else) should be able to use any form of commercially available filter (or their DIY versions) and still get the same results, plus or minus a few days.

In theory, the most efficient process for the bacteria would follow the step-wise increments in metabolites that you suggest. In practice that takes longer as our tests are not that good. To optimize that process you would be best operating with probe sensors and auto-dosers to maintain optimum titers - not at all a hobby technique. Otherwise you get surplus and deficit periods - never optimum. It is "better" (more practical) to somewhat overdose but be below potential toxicity than to risk slowing down an already slow bacterium.

Before Chris' technique for novice fishless cycling, there was a significant amount of argument (with some basis in fact as seen from experiment) that the nitrite oxidizers should be established first, then the ammonia oxidizers. That is never going to be a novice technique, as it requires lab grade chemicals, microgram balances, and laboratory analysis equipment to run. Chris' aim was a simple process that anyone with a small selection of kits could do at home.

The drawbacks to Chris' technique are 1) that getting clear ammonia (nothing but ammonia in water, possibly with a chelator) is no small thing in additive-happy America - additives provide definable branding, all-important to corporate niche-guarding. 2) that the technique is not suited to low-alkalinity water without extra care and testing. The first issue we were aware of before we started popularizing the technique. None of us in the game early had low-alkalinity water or thought to test under those conditions, so that one got by us until it appeared on the boards and became obvious. Overdoses we knew were damaging (slow the process), but low pH/KH damage we missed in early tests. And 3) that the initial introduction of bacteria is important. This is the primary controller of total cycle time. Chris suggested that novices with no access to established filters use rock-wool potted plants, preferably fresh to the LFS. Those plants are largely done hydroponically, the pots submerged in circulating nutrient solutions, the plants (cuttings or divisions) emerse in high-humidity or fogged air. Those rockwool plugs develop plenty of nitrification bacteria during plant development and serve as tank innocula. But that caused a whole world of confusion - nobody got the point that the plant did not matter - it was the rock wool that mattered, and that it had not been away from its circulating hydroponics too long. The blow-back from that has still not ended. Mass confusion. Without a sizeable bacterial introduction, the nitrite oxidizers can starve and die before enough ammonia is oxidized to nitrite to feed them. So, both items #2 & 3 can result in extended nitrite oxidizer development if there was no or too small bacterial numbers put in initially. That is not so big a deal -correct the KH/ph by bicarb or introduce more bacteria - but that seems hard to get across on the boards for some reason. I have all but quit tring to help fishless cycle posts, as you can ask multiple times and never get responses on pH and KH, or if or what startup technique was used. If anything I just cite Chris' third article and let it go.

[daveedka]

Thanks RTR,
I think I got it. Things just weren't adding up in my mind despite what my observations were telling me. I did get the part about the plant wool (one of your posts to someone) back when I was doing my cycle. and that is what I used to seed my first fishless. I pulled the plants out and planted them (slight mistake) and then bagged the wool from the pots and dropped it in my filter. other than the algea from 5ppm ammonia, plants and lights ( I learned the error of my ways after the fact) The cylce worked quite well.

[RTR]

Whew, good - IMHO, understanding aquarium processes is key to being able to trouble-shoot them. This is especially true when several different causes can give the same visible result - such as an extended nitrite "spike".

[daveedka]

IMHO, understanding aquarium processes is key to being able to trouble-shoot them. This is especially true when several different causes can give the same visible result - such as an extended nitrite "spike".

In my profession, just as with scientific experiments understanding all of the variables is the key to finding the correct answer. This is something I find easy to apply when I know what the variables are or might be, but something that doesn't come naturally to most people. I try very hard to seperate and control variables, thus my observations can be more accurate. At the same time I discard any observation that has too many uncontrollables, or unknowns.
As I tell my students, simplify every process to the lowest common denominator, and when you understand how each step is supposed to work, then you can determine which step didn't work and find a cause. Sounds simple, but of course it isn't at all or I would already know everything :D :D :D

[RTR]

No, not really any hope of that clarity - none of us has any hope of knowing everything, but with a bit of methodology we do have hope of learning some things which help us trouble shoot issues.

[jamzwayne]

Comparing MY knowledge against everyone on this board .... guys know eveything. :D

..and Dave, you've been doing this awhile, huh?

[jamzwayne]

Originally posted by Richer
Very rarely doesn't mean no fish die. I have never lost a fish in a fishless cycle... because no fish are involved.

Lets break it down a bit:

Cycling with fish:
What does it involve? Sticking a few hardy fish into a tank, and letting the ammonia the fish naturally (and decaying fish food) produce start up the cycle.

Pros:
-You have fish in the tank right from the beginning.
-The tank will cycle successfully.

Cons:
-The fish have to swim in water containing detectable levels of ammonia/nitrite. This leads to the possibility that the fish may contract diseases, infections, etc. because their immune systems may take a hit from the ammonia/nitrite. Exposure to ammonia/nitrite may also reduce fish lifespan.
-The constant water changing that is necessary to reduce ammonia/nitrite levels to a less toxic level, so that your cycling fish can survive.
-The fish you use must be hardy fish so that they can survive the cycle. What will happen if those fish aren't part of your stocking plan? Will you return them? What if the fishstore will not accept them?
-Even a complete cycle isn't complete. Fish have to be introduced slowly to the tank. Introducing too many fish at once will upset the balance of the tank. Remember that the tank only has enough bacterial colonies to convert the waste of a few fish, not a full load of fish.

Fishless Cycle:
What does it involve? Buying ammonia from a store, adding this ammonia to a tank till you get an ammonia level of about 5ppm. The ammonia added will start the cycle.

Pros:
-Spares fish from swimming in water containing detectable levels of ammonia/nitrite. Which prevents any of the ammonia/nitrite related problems a fish may get.
-Cycling a tank on 5ppm of ammonia will give the aquarist a large margin of error for fish stocking. Unless a person really packs a tank, fish will never produce enough ammonia to get an ammonia reading of 5ppm. In turn, this allows the aquarist to fully stock a tank after a successful cycle.
-A few people have said that fishless cycling actually speed up how quickly a tank will cycle.
-Like a fish cycle, it will cycle a tank successfully.

Cons:
-One very large water change at the end of the cycle is needed, to remove the large levels of nitrates that are probably in the water. Still... not as bad as doing multiple water changes during a fish cycle.
-You will have to look at an empty tank for 2-3 weeks.


Seems to me that a fishless cycle is the clear winner. I probably missed some stuff, but that is the general gist of it.

HTH
-Richer

Richer,

OUSTANDING POST ! ! !

I copied this and printed it out.

[jamzwayne]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Great post, Richer. I'd add to the cons of fishy cycling that fish cycling may cause permanent damage to sensitive gill tissue from ammonia burns, and the discomfort the fish feel from swimming in toxins.

There are certainly greater evils in the world than cycling with fish, and some folks who practice fishy cycling are no doubt extremely conscientious to minimize damage/discomfort to the fish. Newbies are much more likely to err during cycling, though, and expose fish to dangerous level of toxins. Even worse, the idea of using 'cycling fish" seems to promote the idea that some fish are more or less disposable, an idea I find in opposition to the feelings that make me want to keep these creatures as pets.

Jim

Well put Jim.

Me being a newbie, started my tank as a fishy cycle, but when I saw the effects of the Ammonia on the fish (they acted very strange after awhile, and showed great signs of stress like hiding in the caves I made in the tank) I had to remove them from the tank.

I 'd rather watch a happy fish then watch a fish suffer. They are now doing great in my 10 GAL for now. They will soon be in my pond I am gonna build in my back yard :D

[jamzwayne]

WOW

Wonderful thread, full of good info.

Thanks EVERYONE

[anonapersona]

But, back to countrygirl and the fishy cycle, I noticed that she has a successful angelfish tank in the house.

I suggest that she import bacteria from that tank to the new tank frequently by taking filter squeezin's from that tank's filter media to the filter of the new tank.

If you can import bacteria, why bother with a fishless cycle at all?

[RTR]

Even when I start a tank with a fully mature filter, I still do an ammonia challenge to confirm there are no unoxidized metabolites after 24 hours. same as with fishless cycling - knowing that you have a mature and fully functioning filter before introducing any lifestock is quite cheap insurance IMHO & IME. I don't do shots in the dark if I can avoid it.

[Cat]

It amazes me the lengths you all go to for testing! Im about to set up my fourth aquarium (6ft this time) and every time I have started off by just filling with water adding my stress coat and leaving a week with just the filter running to clear the water then start a fish cycle with about 5 White cloud minows then each week work my way up to slightly hardier fish untill fully cycled at 6 weeks. only then do I do a water change of 50% cleaning the gunk off my sponge filters in the waste water. Now I have never lost a fish this way nor had any fish illness. Also I started off by wanting to buy all the many testing kits. Till the guy who worked thre told me I was better off not wasting my money he said so long as I do a 30% water change every month and I buy suitable fish for the water in my area their was no need. Sure enough in the last 2 years I have only lost a few fish for stress within the first couple of days of introducing or a couple that got killed by other tank mates. The only illness my fish have ever had is my 50gal has had Ich twice. (just increased temp for three days and was gone).
I dont see how fish cycling is cruel as I was told that fish that are used are used to conditions in the wild where they withstand many different water conditions thoughout the seasons, including when lakes dry up on the summer the survive in small pools with high nitrate/amonia levels.

Just my two cents anyway!

[OrionGirl]

2 years is not really a very long time.

The fish are harmed by the exposure. Might not be lethal, but it's harmful. Natural conditions--even in lakes that dry up, even in very small streams, will never reach the titers of nitrogen found in most aquariums and all cycling tanks. Just doesn't happen--I've seen the test results from a variety of waters around Wyoming, including ephemeral streams 2 weeks before they dried up, and they never had ammonia levels higher than .05ppm.

And, of course, what of the tank that you don't want white clouds (or danios, or any of the other 'hardy' fish) to occupy?

If you choose to use fish for cycling, that is your right. However, do not imply that it is harmless to the fish just because you can't see the damage.

[RTR]

Two years is a mature tank, no question. But it is only mature for the shortest-lived fish, quite immature for most of the fish I keep. I want and expect my fish to easily exceed their wild lifespans, not uncommonly a multiple of their wild lifespan. If they do not, I know there is something wrong with my husbandry -they certainly are not exposed to predators, disease, and only rarely to natural disasters.

[daveedka]

..and Dave, you've been doing this awhile, huh?

Solving problems or keeping fish :laugh: I kept fish for a lot of years without knowing what I was doing, I kept them for a few more with some decent knowledge, and now have a lot of experience to back up knowledge that I am gaining everyday. I am trying new things that I never dared to attempt because I didn't have knowledge, and was hesitant to mess with success before. Of the 34 years I have lived I have kept fish for about 16 of them, and helped others with tanks for an additional 7 while my tanks sat empty. I am very seriously considering opening an LFS when money is no longer an issue for me (hope that day arrives before I'm too old).



I dont see how fish cycling is cruel as I was told that fish that are used are used to conditions in the wild where they withstand many different water conditions thoughout the seasons, including when lakes dry up on the summer the survive in small pools with high nitrate/amonia levels.

First of all, cruel is an interpretation, irresponsible may be a better choice of words. there are many things that do occur in the wild that could fall in the class of cruel. just watch the discovery channel for a day or two. Secondly the fish that are caught in pools in the wild where the water volume is so low that the ammonia and ntrite levels rise usually die. that's why we find pools of dead shad when the floods subside in ohio. still enoguh water, not enough air and too much nitrogen
The big issue is what are we doing with fish in our homes. We have them for entertainment. if we chose to keep anmals for entertainment, we have a responsibility to provide them with excellent conditions to live in while they entertain us. if we aren't willing to do that IMO we shouldn't have them in our homes. they aren't there for any necessary purpose except to entertain us.
You open your post by stating that you don't understand why we test so much, ignorance is bliss in many cases, but it doesn't mean the fish like it. ammonis burns, and nitrite poisoning may not kill a fish today but why would you want to put a fish through it so you can be entertained? Why not learn how to prevent these issues and keep fish that didn't have to live through ammonia and nitrite spikes? I have put plenty of fish through a tough cycle when I didn't know better, but now that I do I cannot in good concious put another fish through one. I may put a fish through a spike accidentally, but not on purpose, when there is an alternative so easlily available. As far as Fishy vs Fishless cycling, either can be done without harming fish but it is a lot of work to do a fishy cycle without hurting a fish, and has a much higher potential for problems. so it makes almost no sense at all to ever do a fishy cycle when the alternative is easier, more effective, and cantains less risk.

Dave

[Illdoitright]

All good info, and maybe I missed it or there is a link that has the "dummies" detailed procedure for the fishless cycle?
I would like to know what ammonia to get and how much to add at what intervals and what to look for in my readings?

I have a new 29 gal with a UGF and two powerheads and a hang on power filter.
I have about 2 inches of substrate and am waiting on a replacement hood before i do anything else (no water yet). I did get a good test kit and was originally going to seed the cycle, but now will wait to do it fishless..

[daveedka]

Fishless cycle is mentioned and explained here and there in the last four pages. the quick version is add water, and enoguh clear ammonia to get 5ppm keep ammonia t that level until nitrites start to raise and then keep ammona between 2-3 ppm. when nitrites start dropping nitrates will appear. when you can add ammonia and 24 hours later ammonia and nitrite are 0 the cycle is estabilished do a large volume water change to reduce the nitrates created, and add fish. takes 4-6 weeks without a starter culture of bacteria. for more detail, search fishless cycle here and or on Google.
To speed things up find a source of bacteria from an estabilished tank
Dave

[Dangerdoll]

did you try this link that Richer posted earlier in this thread? http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html

I just went through the process of starting all over again and decided to go with fishless cycling... I'm about halfway through it and found this to be quite helpful.

[Indigo]

I was just reading the marine section about cycling. They use cocktail shrimp for ammonia? Can this be used in FW setups to kick start the cycle? Cuz I KNOW I can find shrimp hehe.

Thanks :)

[JSchmidt]

Sure, you can use any kind of rotting organic material. The problem, aside from the stench, is that you can't really control the levels of ammonia and nitrite. I belive that SW tanks are usually much less heavily stocked than typical FW setups. A rotting shrimp might produce enough ammonia to cycle a tank for SW, but maybe not enough for FW. Liquid ammonia, if you can find it, allows much easier dosing. Also, your house won't stink.

Jim

[Indigo]

gotcha. my apartment has a weird smell to begin with, rotting seafood won't help. I'm hunting down ammonia :)

[livewyr25]

i have a relativly new tank, still not fully cycled with a few fish in it. its been 3 weeks since ive had the tank. i have a penguin 170 bio-wheel filter on my 20 gallon tank. and its been doing a great job. it recently has slowed down alot and i checked the filter cartride (not the bio wheel) and it is filled with gunk. i read somewhere that i shouldnt change the filter while im cycling cuz of the bacteria loss, but how would i go about cleaning my tank if my filter is soo dirty??? thanks in advance+

[daveedka]

Just rinse it in tank water while doing a water change and stick it back in. no need to replace it unless it wears out, or you need activated carbon for some reason.
dave

[Cat]

Okay you will be happy to know that in the process of setting up my new tank I have bought a load of water testing kits and I will be doing a fishless cycle.
Untill finding this forum I had never heard of fishless cycling and I had been advised against bothering with water tests.
So anyway I spend last night cleaning out the Eheim professional filter I got second hand with the tank. I dont think the last guy had ever cleaned his filter as it was filled and I mean filled with poo! bits that I looked at thinking were soild filter material were not foam at all but solid waste. So I took bucket after bucket of water out my 50imp gal tank and cleaned all the filter material in that and reassembled adding new filter wool at the top. Now if I fill my tank tonight with tap water and de-chlorinator and get the pump running how long are we talking before adding fish? I have hunted around both my LFS's for amonia to add and cant find any, will I be okay without as I have a mature filter?
I am also going to do a test for the first time of my 50gal tonight just to see if it is all okay, will be quite interesting!

**Also just another thing I have noticed, so many books I have and one of my LFS's say to do a 25/30% water change once a month. why do so many books etc say this as I dont believe any fish would be happy with this! :confused:

[OrionGirl]

How long did the filter sit without running? I'd be concerned that the bacteria were overwhelmed, or inactive due to Old Tank Syndrome--that much waste will go through the buffer quickly and can drop pH below the bacterial tolerance.

Ammonia won't be at the LFS. Check Walmart, Home Depot, a pharmacy or grocery store.

You always want to test the system. Even when pulling a sponge from one of my filters to setup a new tank, I always challenge the filter with ammonia before introducing fish. Just safer than guessing.

Newer books advocate more frequent water changes. Many older books, and many LFS employees, use old techniques, qith little understanding of the chemistry involved in the tank. So, water changes used to be a bad thing--and they weren't done monthly, sometimes not even annually. Getting people on board requires getting them to let go of the myths, and that, my friend, can be painful.

[daveedka]

first issue, the filter is only "mature" if the bacteria has been fed and kept in water. If the Eheim sat dry or without any circulation for any period of time more than a day or two you are starting from scratch. You can jump start a cycle with filtermedia, mulm or Gravel from another tank.

Next item. look for ammonia at the grocery store not at the LFS. Generic ammonia sometimes labeled clear ammonia. When you shake it it should not foam. it should also not have many ingredients listed. Mine had ammonia water and cheleating agents nothing else.

Without a good bacteria culture, you are looking at 4-6 weeks to cycle the tank. with a good culture you are looking at 2 days to verify that it is cycled. everything else falls in between.

Water changes: pollutants build in our tanks, solid watse is converted to nitrogeneous waste, phosphates metals and any number of other things. these build up. water changes reduce them quickly. A bitrate test is a good judge of pollutant levels in a tank, because notrates are easier to test for than most other nasties we get. Water changes should be done to keep the tank below 20 ppm nitrate IMO. this will ensure low pollutant levels, and a stable tank. The percentagew and the frequency of water changes will vary from tank to tank depending on fish load and feeding habits. I change a lot of water. I also stay way below the 20 ppm mark (personal preference) and I have big messy fish that like to eat a lot. I'd start with a 30% change weekly, and test nitrates. if they stay below 20 ppm each week then you are fine. if they go higher increase volume and or Frequency.

LFS advice. Read the sticky on information and how to asses it. Remember a couple of things. LFS's arent necessarily as well informed as they should be. LFS make a living by selling you stuff. Their advice should always be considered but never banked on.
Dave

[Cat]

Okay, well the filter has been sitting for a week with water in but not circulating and I have used water from my other tank which is up and running to clean the media with. I will do a lager water change on the 50 gal tonight and put that in the new tank, perhaps ring out the sponges into the new tank as well. Do you think this will be enough to get the cycle going or do you suggest adding amonia as well?
As for my LFS well the main one I use are very good in the fact they are a couple of old guys who have been fish keeping for a number of years, and its not like a big pet store where its a load of kids as staff who dont know a thing about fish. But yeah as they are old guys they have their old methods of doing things, I take on board what they say but I always tend to look on line or refer to my little library, 'Knowledge is power' and all that.
I have always done more frequent water changes as I like my tank to be pretty clean, plus Im quite heavily stocked at the mo while the other tank is being sorted. But it will be good to use tests for a more acurate guide in the future!
I like you LFS advicce on the other thread by the way. :)

[xhibition]

Cycle has always worked magic for me. I Cycled a 60 gal. in 5 days with that stuff. I suggest not doing water changes everyday especially in new tank that size. You need to give your tank a chance to build up bacteria. I feel when you change water everyday your defeating the point by putting more amonia in the tank a losing bacteria.

[ChicoRaton]

X, The bacteria you want are attached to solid objects like rocks and filters. Only a very small percentage are free-floating in the water. Therefore, if you're doing a fishy cycle, Daily water changes serve to reduce stress on your fish without inhibiting the nitrogen cycle any significant amount.

[daveedka]

Cycle has always worked magic for me.

Do you test for nitrites and nitrates ? The cycle product will eat ammonia, but most folks report that it does not live long, and does not eat nitrite. This means it will not properly cycle a tank, but will reduce ammonia levels very quickly when first added. As always, the proof is in the pudding so if you have results that show success it would be good to share your test numbers with everyone for their use and reveiw. also your methods if they worked.


You need to give your tank a chance to build up bacteria. I feel when you change water everyday your defeating the point by putting more amonia in the tank a losing bacteria.
Water changes are a must when cycling with fish. there is no other way to keep the fish safe while estabilishing the cycle. Furthermore as has been said a couple of times during this thread water changes do not slow the cycle. Water changes definately shouldn't add ammonia to a tank, they should do the opposite.
Dave

[Milky]

congrats on getting
that 250 gal monster of a tank.
what kind of stand do you have it on
is it indoors or in a basement or on a deck??
what kind of ventalation do you
have going on in the room ? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[gregor7777]

I wonder how CG's tank ended up, not seen since 4/04.

[qtaquaman]

Just two things, first products like cycle and use of estabilished sponge water, do not speed up the cycling process they just seed the tank with benefical bacteria, the length of the cycling process is set at about five weeks. Second bacteria will not grow faster as much as growing in greater numbers by generating more ammonia. This can in fact cause an unexpectedly high spike in nitrites as there is such a build up of ammonia converting bacteria in the limited filter bio-surface that they hinder the growth of the nitrite converting bacteria. RJust remember, go slow, everything in moderation (except maybe biological filtering capacity) and when in doubt water changes.

[JSchmidt]

Just two things, first products like cycle and use of estabilished sponge water, do not speed up the cycling process they just seed the tank with benefical bacteria, the length of the cycling process is set at about five weeks.


By seeding the tank with beneficial bacteria, you ARE speeding up the cycle... that's the whole point of seeding. Rather than waiting for a very small number of bacteria to multiply according to their own little pokey schedule, you bring in about a zillion of their cousins. If you import enough bacteria (i.e., if you seed heavily enough) you will have no measureable cycle. I agree that the product Cycle is worthless, but getting enough seeding material can greatly reduce the time to cycle, or eliminate it completely if you have enough innoculant.

Jim

[daveedka]

In addition to the above response, it should be noted that there is no set time for the cycle 5 weeks or otherwise. Typically without a seed, you have a 4-6 week process, but there are still variables and fluctuating time frames. I have had them take as much as 7 weeks, and as said by JSchmidt, I have seeded heavily, and had it estabilished in a day. There are a lot of variables, and a lot of way to influence those variables. "Cycle" has been known to hinder the process for some people, and extend its completion. It seldom if ever recieves a good reveiw.
dave

[maaltan]

My tank was much smaller. only 10g. I got suckered into the cycle crap. Fish store told me to take this "kit", cycle, and the $20 of fish they sold me (6 neons and 4 swordtails) with tap water treated with dechlorinator (well one thing was right).

I ended up doing daily 50% water changes for 2 months to keep poisons below the max readings of my tests. During this time i lost all my swordtails and most of the neons. One swordtail was pregnant and i cut her open and actually got 9 babies. they are still alive at the moment no thanks to my recent F-up (read general thread for more info)

So take the suggestion .. do big water changes every day. Doing this WILL increase the time to cycle but "kickstarting" the filter with food will just kill your fish faster.

now when i upgraded my 10 to 20g i took all the substrate plants fish filter etc to the new tank and i had no poison spiks at all. Filter gunk will help.

Bottom line im in the fishless cycle and cycle=crap (actually crap would probably be more usefull than cycle) schools now and I have not seen any evidence to switch my decision.

[jonny p]

ive just started seeing nitrates now, after over 2 months, i was getting worried for a while,
anyway, i was doing a water change and desided to look to see if i could find where the bacteria are hanging out, my filter is a juwel built in one, with baskets for loads of sponges, well i took out my sponges and they all seem clean, the only thing in the tank that has any "gunk" on it is my power head is that were my bacteria have colonised?

i put my hand inside the filter to feel the walls but they dont feel slimy.

the reason i ask is i dont know if i should clean my power head, i dont want to risk getting rid of my only bacteria. the gunk is a cream colour about 3mm deep (its a slightly green colour now since i treated for ick last week)
im afraid it will eventualy block up the pump head
i know that theres bacteria in the gravel too, but is there enough to keep the proces going if i clean the pump?

[OrionGirl]

Clean the powerhead--that's not the bacteria colony. The bacteria will preferentially colonize where their needs are best met--ie, lots of surface area, lots of water flow. The powerhead has one condition, but there's just not enough room for a large colony. Yes, the bacteria are colonizing everywhere, but most of them will end up in the fitler media. They aren't visible--so don't go based on where you can see a build up of something. Visible build ups tend to be wastes that can and should be removed, IME.

[Homebrewhead]

My wife said I needed a fish tank. So now I have 50 gallon tank filled with water running through a filter with no fish in it.

Can someone in layman's terms explain the initial process so we can introduce some fish?

I want to add a couple plants and the most colorful FW fish available suited for my size tank.

Do I need to add ammonia to my water? I have well water, so no chlorine.

I think I added 2 ozs. of Stress. I think it's suppossed to grow bacteria.

Is cycling the art of growing bacteria in the gravel for the fish?

When do I know I have bacteria?

Do I need to swap the water out so much? I have enough on my plate, now this! I have chickens, wife, kids, friends, I make my own beer and a job!

Thanks for the cliff notes.

[Maj0rFiSh]

Send me some Home Brew and ill give you an awnser ;)

j/k, normally i leave a cycle between 1-2 weeks before introducing my first fish, only add one or a few smaller fish once a week, to many fish at once can cause stress and they are likely to die, water changes on a new tank i say about 25% a week, then after a few weeks make it every 2 weeks, if you come across problems like high nitrate, then water changes will differ.

[Homebrewhead]

Send me some Home Brew and ill give you an awnser ;)

j/k, normally i leave a cycle between 1-2 weeks before introducing my first fish,


Should I add ammonia?

Will Stress develop bacteria?

Thanks!

PS: My beer is good! :) I do an all grain 5 gallon full boil. I use a secondary carboy to clear it, age it and then keg it! I have a 17 cu. ft. freezer with an electronic temp. controller and 4 taps!

[kamla]

hi.. the link is not working

[happychem]

If you don't add ammonia, you're not cycling.

Cycling is the growing of nitrifying bacteria colonies. One strain converts ammonia (NH3/NH4) secreted from your fishes' gills to nitrite (NO2). Another converts NO2 to nitrate (NO3). If these colonies are sufficiently large then your fish will not suffer from ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

These bacteria require 3 things: a surface to adhere to, a source of NH3 for food, a source of O2 to respire. Nitrifiers use NH3 and NO2 in the same manner as we use carbohydrates: energy. In an oxygen rich environment NH3 has more potential energy than NO2 and NO2 more than NO3. The bacteria use NH3 or NO2 and O2 to get energy, with which they carry out their life processes.

So what can you do for them? Well, the higher the surface area, the more bacteria can colonize, so anywhere with a high surface area can potentially hold large colonies. Finally, they need constant water flow. Flowing water carries new NH3/NO2 and O2 to the colonies, in stagnant water these would have to diffuse which is much slower.

Stress Coat, to my knowledge does nothing to grow bacteria, other than dechlorinate. I've stopped using it, personally, because other, cheaper dechlorinators work just as well (for me, no chloramines) and don't add unneeded stuff (like aloe) to my water. If you're on a well, better for you, no need to add anything.

To sum up:
To cycle you need a source of bacteria, a sponge from the filter of an established tank is best, NH3 and O2 (flowing water). If any of these is missing, you're not cycling. You can run your tank w/o fish for as long as you want, if you're not adding ammonia (or a source of ammonia), you're not cycling.

[squeek]

cycling with fish is horrible.....its like exposing humans to smoky ari for a month......id NEVER stress my fish that way....

I mean..crystal-clear is NOT an idication of how safe the water is....you cant see PH Ammonia, Nitrates or Nitrites.....

I have used cycle many times....there is fine print on the bottle that says to put the bottle in the fridge....the first time i didnt read this and cycle did absolutely nothing....but after following the directions i got pretty good results with it...

IMHO....change 20% of the tanks water twice a week....smaller water changes more often are best as they do not overwhelm the bacteria, nor does the different water stress the fish out....I would also be weary of using gravel or anything from anyone unless you are 100% certain that there are no diseases or dormant parasites in the tank.....

remember....if you so large water changes during a cycle..there is a big chance that you can stress the fish out....better to cycle FISHLESS then add fish....

Cycling with fish is the worst thing anyone can do...it does hurt them...

[happychem]

I agree with the general message, if not the vehemence. I don't think that it could be called the 'worst thing anyone can do', nor do I think it fair to pass judgement on folks who don't know any better.

I do have one problem with the facts presented, I don't think I'll be the only one either:
water changes more often are best as they do not overwhelm the bacteria. I fail to see how a water change would overwhelm a bacteria that is attached to the surface of the filter media and, to some extent, the rest of the tank and its contents. Assuming that the water was dechlorinated, of course.

[Coulter]

Question for you guys.

Quite a newb here, and I've been having some problems with my tank. It's a 29 gal setup with a aqua clear 70 filter running. My water was a bit cloudy, so I asked my LFS, and he tested some of the water for me. My phosphates were ridiculously high (the test kit only went up to 10 ppm, and that's the color my water registered). I bought my own test kit and read through the instructions, and it said the quickest way to reduce phosphates is to do a 25-50% water change. Needless to say, I changed the water and then tested phosphates. Still the maximum reading. Well, after about the 5th 50% water change in 48 hours, the phosphate reading is finally at 2 ppm. My question is this: Did all those water changes drastically affect my bacteria? If so, what do I need to do? (As a side note, I also just bought a new filter, that aqua clear 70 I mentioned. I used to have a whisper 30, and when I was replacing it with the aqua clear, the bio-bag was disgusting ... brown and slimy. There was also a rather thick slime all over the filter, so I assume that contributed a lot to the problem.)

Also, I noticed my fish sometimes swim at the top as if they are trying to get air, so I added a little bubble wand to the tank, which seemed to help for about 10 hours, but they're doing it again. What is the problem?

And lastly, my water is still somewhat cloudy, but I just got the phosphate levels to be normal about 6 hours ago ... how long will this cloudiness take to clear up? There doesn't seem to be any excessive algae juding by my pieces of driftwood (in fact, hardly any algae at all), and all my levels are within the test kit's instructions acceptable range.

Sorry this was a long post, I've just been reading through the forum for several hours now and came up with a lot of questions.

[JSchmidt]

You aren't using anything to regulate pH, are you (e.g., Proper pH)? Those are often loaded with phosphates. Did you test your tap water, too, or just the tank water?

Jim

[happychem]

What he said. ;) and also:

Did you let the new filter run for a while before discarding the old one to allow the new media to be seeded with bacteria, or alternatively, did you add some of the old, slimy media to the new filter? As long as you provided a good source of bacteria to the new filter and dechlorinated your new water, there shouldn't be any effect on the bacteria.

Rinse out your filter sponges every week in some old tank water, that should keep your sponges in good condition and keep your bacteria healthy and with plenty of surface area.

You've got a bacterial bloom right now, the bacteria may be drawing in a lot of O2, hence the fish gasping. Lower the water level by about an inch and the filter splashing will help to oxygenate the water.

Be patient, the bloom is from an imbalance in your tank chemistry, or a sharp change that threw off the natural balance in the tank. Once a new balance is established, the cloudiness will dissapate. This could take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. Just be consistent with your maintenance, feed lightly once per day and change 50% of the water each week.

And test your tap water! Call or e-mail your water comission and ask for the annual water analysis. It won't be exactly what's coming out of the tap, it's an annual average, but it will give you a good idea of what to expect.

[Coulter]

I tested the tap water, and all the levels were actually quite wonderful, everything was either 0ppm or near 0ppm.

I had two new fish die, one didn't last for more than 2 hours and the other almost made it two days. I've been discussing this with the LFS (they know me quite well), and we decided it would be best to completely empty the tank, give it a really thorough cleaning, and then fill it back up with tap water (plus about two gallons of the old water).

After I did that, the water was less cloudy, but I still could barely see out the back of the tank! I feel I didn't do a good enough job cleaning the gravel when I first emptied the tank. There was a ton of gunk under there, uneaten food, dirt, etc, and I don't think I got it all with my gravel vac. I just tested the new water, and my phosphate, nitrate, and nitrite are next to 0ppm, but my ammonia is sitting at a good 4ppm, which I'm thinking is from that gunk underneath the gravel. So right now I'm debating doing this over again, but this time doing a much more thorough job by literally taking the gravel out and putting it in some sort of sifting cooking dish (the kind you would drain your pasta in) and running water over all the rock for a good half hour. I also didn't clean the glass of the tank very well, I just used a wet paper towel and wiped it down since I don't have access to a garden hose or anything (I live in an apt. complex and I don't even know where the outdoor faucet is). So what I would like to do is take the tank over to a friends house and use her garden house to spray it down real good. After that, I'd come back and put it all back together, and see how it looks then.

All my other fish seem to be doing fine, no sign of ich or stress for them. And they've stopped swimming at the top now that the water has been changed.

Any comments?

[Coulter]

Well, I ended up emptying the tank of everything but the gravel and whatever water I couldn't get out of it. I then took the tank down to the LFS, and the guy there cleaned it out for me, free of charge. Rinsed the rock out real good until the water coming off of it was entirely clean. I brought the tank home, set it up, and it looks beautiful now. I'm gonna run some tests on it later tonight and let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for the advice thus far.

[HeinekenMike]

WOW! I just read through this entire sticky on cycling and found it very informative. I would classify myself as a "semi noob" I had a 10 gallon aquarium with a few hardy fish in it for about a year then I moved and sold it, I also have experience with some exotic hard to maintain animals such as poison dart frogs. but as I posted earlier in the noob section I recently bought a 72G bowfront tank I have had it running for 2 days now and not tested the water, its pretty darn clear and I am considering going to my LFS to get a water test and buy some of that cycle stuff. How long do you think it would take this tank to cycle? ( i bought it used so the gravel and filters are used also) I had absolutely no idea what a fishless cycle was until I found this forum. It would just about kill me to have this thing sit in my living room for a month with absolutely nothing it... so I am hoping I could get it up to par in a couple weeks. what do you think? any advise?

[JSchmidt]

Get BioSpira. It seems to actually work to abbreviate/eliminate the cycle. All the other products are pretty much considered around here to be snake oil.

Personally, even an empty, cycling tank is preferable to one with sick/injured/dead fish from ammonia or nitrite poisoning... netting dead fish gets old pretty fast.

HTH,
Jim

[HeinekenMike]

JS cool thanks for the info, I looked into BioSpira at my LFS and I think I will start a thread based on that product alone and see what kind of feedback I get.
EDIT* I FOUND a very helpfull link allready on this product within our forums and here is the link http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45899

[ralph.horrocks]

Ok, like everyone else, id like some reasurrance that my tank is on the right path. Ive got a heavily planted 27g tank. Im cycling with fish. Its been up and running for 6 days now. I squeezed in alot of gunk from my old filter, and currently have one old filter media in my new filter. Ive tested for Ammonia and its at 0.00ppm and nitrates are 10ppm. What else should i be doing? How much longer till i finish cycling?

I did put in Cycle, only becuase i wanted to get rid of the last bit and becuase i cant get biospira.

I also have a CO2 system running, will it effect the cycling process??

[TrickyD119]

Do you have a nitrIte test kit? The plants and seeding are helping you along so if your nitrItes also read 0ppm, you could possibly be done with the cycle.

[ralph.horrocks]

ahh, no i dont have a nitrite test kit. Should i get one?

[twiztedfait]

yes, nitrites are as dangerous to fish as ammonia.

[Liz]

How long does a tank take to cycle? I just set up a 10g, have a few guppies and a betta in there. This is about the third day and the water is cloudy.

I used "cycle" in it, as well as AquaSafe and a little bit of Coppersafe (one of the guppies had some shredding in his tail, I wanted to make sure it didn't get infected or anything). I also used a little bit of aquarium salt. I have since realized that mixing all the chemicals probably wasn't a good idea. I'm a total newbie to this business. I've sucessfully kept fish bowls for years, but never an aquarium.

[Kasakato]

Start a new trend. Il help you there.

[blasterman]

This thread is irritating in that I've never seen so many solutions in search of a problem in my life. I had to sign up simply to respond.

First, I come from a background of maintaining marine and reef tanks, and due to the fact I move around so much I elected to go back to my roots keeping freshwater. I sold my salt water gear, coral frags, fish, and went back to fresh with a happy face. No offense, but maintaining a community freshwater tank is absurdy easy. Plants aside, it's about as difficult as making ice cubes. For that matter I haven't lost a fresh water fish due to water conditions for over 20 years, and rarely lose salt water fish. This is not rocket science, people.

The basic biology between a fresh water and salt water tank are pretty much the same, and the solutions are the same. The difference is that in a salt water reef we've solved the basic nitrogen cycle problem becuase thre is no tolerance for Ammo/Nitrite in a reef tank anyways. So, why this is a such a problem to solve in a freshwater tank baffles me.

I recently brought my converted 75gal fresh water tank online, and cycled the stupid thing in 12 days. Want to know how? I filled it full of plenty of rocks, used adequate powerheads to move water around, didn't mess with silly bio-wheels, and used cheap fish with high metabolic rates such as zebra danios and tinfoil barbs. 12 days - that's it. Ammonia went from being just detectable to back to zero. I could care less with nitrite is because it will follow the same course.

Which brings me to my first complaint - fishless cycling. Yeah, I've done it with salt water tanks because I get sick of chasing damsels around when the cycle is finished. First, my experience with fishless cycling is that it takes much longer than *with* fish, and next, it creates and artificial bacteria colony that have to re-adjust when actual fish are put in the next. I'd also like to ask our resident expert here if he/she is aware that nitrite reducing bacteria *will not grow* in the presence of ammonia, so it doesn't save you time in that respect.

A couple people have commented that they've never lost fish while cycling, and I can be added to that group. I've seen fresh water tanks when cycling produce ammo levels so high they'd sterilize every living thing in a salt water tank. Obviously if you're breeding discus or neons you need pristine water conditions, but what gives with this 'bacteria in a bottle' for starting to a tank? Last I checked, nitrosomas and nitrobacter required this stuff called oxygen to survive, and there ain't a whole lot of that in a plastic bottle now is there? You do realize these two bacteria basically thrive on virtually any moist and dark surface on earth? Throw a spoon full of dirt in your tank if you must.

Otherwise, by reading these threads I strongly recommend many of you re-think your filtration systems, dump the bio-wheels and HOB filters, get adequate circulation in your tanks, and find a way to export nitrate.

[blasterman]

I tested the tap water, and all the levels were actually quite wonderful, everything was either 0ppm or near 0ppm

Regardless, the bloom is likely induced by a nutrient being introduced from the water changes (phosphate and silicate are two common ones), and bad tank husbandry because the good bacteria can't compete with the bad. You have no idea how often I see this same problem, and it's always the same tank set-up; Usually poor circulation, hang on back only style filter, and the bllom occurs a few days after a water change.

Rip out the gravel, clean most of the gunk, and stick a good undergravel plate in there with 200gph head. Throw the hang on back filter in the trash since it's basically your biological filter anyways, and failing.

[reiverix]

The difference is that in a salt water reef we've solved the basic nitrogen cycle problem becuase thre is no tolerance for Ammo/Nitrite in a reef tank anyways. So, why this is a such a problem to solve in a freshwater tank baffles me.
It's not a problem to solve in FW. When the tank is cycled there's no ammonia or nitrite.

Ammonia went from being just detectable to back to zero. I could care less with nitrite is because it will follow the same course.
Great. But most of us do care about nitrite levels.

I'd also like to ask our resident expert here if he/she is aware that nitrite reducing bacteria *will not grow* in the presence of ammonia, so it doesn't save you time in that respect.
It did in my tank. I've just finished a fishless cycle. I added ammonia every day.

First, my experience with fishless cycling is that it takes much longer than *with* fish, and next, it creates and artificial bacteria colony that have to re-adjust when actual fish are put in the next.
What's an 'artificial bacteria colony' ? After the cycle is finished, that's it. There's no adjusting of anything.

[Kasakato]

Just leave it. He is an idot.

[uwish]

Ok, first point...technically there is NO fishless cycle. I don't care what people tell you or what they say at the LFS. If you look at the chemestry and what is involved the tank cycling does not even start to happen until you add fish. It doesn't matter if your tank has sat full of water for 8 years, it will not start cycling until you add fish. There are some products on the market that can help with this so call "fishless" cycle but I have never heard of any credible source pushing this type of cycling.

Cycling is a slow process if done correctly and there are numerous variables to make every situation unique. I personally, when cycling a new tank do use the product "cycle". It will NOT cycle the tank for you, this produce simply helps reduce the spikes that occurr in your tank DURING the cycling process. It can take 2 months to fully cycle a tank and it can not be considered established until its reaches at least the one year mark after cycling.

[Kasakato]

Ok, first point...technically there is NO fishless cycle. I don't care what people tell you or what they say at the LFS. If you look at the chemestry and what is involved the tank cycling does not even start to happen until you add fish. It doesn't matter if your tank has sat full of water for 8 years, it will not start cycling until you add fish. There are some products on the market that can help with this so call "fishless" cycle but I have never heard of any credible source pushing this type of cycling.

Cycling is a slow process if done correctly and there are numerous variables to make every situation unique. I personally, when cycling a new tank do use the product "cycle". It will NOT cycle the tank for you, this produce simply helps reduce the spikes that occurr in your tank DURING the cycling process. It can take 2 months to fully cycle a tank and it can not be considered established until its reaches at least the one year mark after cycling.
Technically ammoina is fish poo

[JSchmidt]

Ok, first point...technically there is NO fishless cycle. I don't care what people tell you or what they say at the LFS. If you look at the chemestry and what is involved the tank cycling does not even start to happen until you add fish. It doesn't matter if your tank has sat full of water for 8 years, it will not start cycling until you add fish. There are some products on the market that can help with this so call "fishless" cycle but I have never heard of any credible source pushing this type of cycling.

Cycling is a slow process if done correctly and there are numerous variables to make every situation unique. I personally, when cycling a new tank do use the product "cycle". It will NOT cycle the tank for you, this produce simply helps reduce the spikes that occurr in your tank DURING the cycling process. It can take 2 months to fully cycle a tank and it can not be considered established until its reaches at least the one year mark after cycling.

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. The 'cycle' generally refers the part of the nitrogen cycle where ammonia is converted to nitrite which is converted to nitrate. It doesn't matter if the ammonia source is from fish respiration or from a bottle of ammonia. The bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite are ubiquitous and they will colonize a tank with ammonia content in the water.

It could be said that there are other microorganisms that must also establish themselves before a tank is established, but the nitrifiers are the most important as unoxidized ammonia is toxic.

Please refrain from contributing to posts on topics about which you have no information. Posting wrong information is worse than not posting...

Jim

[Harlock]

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. The 'cycle' generally refers the part of the nitrogen cycle where ammonia is converted to nitrite which is converted to nitrate. It doesn't matter if the ammonia source is from fish respiration or from a bottle of ammonia. The bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite are ubiquitous and they will colonize a tank with ammonia content in the water.

It could be said that there are other microorganisms that must also establish themselves before a tank is established, but the nitrifiers are the most important as unoxidized ammonia is toxic.

Please refrain from contributing to posts on topics about which you have no information. Posting wrong information is worse than not posting...

Jim
I couldn't agree more, Jim. Also, the product called Cycle, which uwish touted as one he used is known to actually slow down the cycle as it, in the end, removes ammonia and thereby starves the beneficial bacteria. Also, to say you have never heard of any credible sources pushing this type of cycling is to ignore a huge chunk of the aquarist hobby and shows a certain lack of understanding of some of the more recent developments. Oh, and for what it's worth, uwish, check into a product called BIO-Spira from Marineland. Not only does it work to help significantly reduce or eliminate the cycle period, it has been proven time and again. There, now between Jim and me you have $.04 USD. ;)

[happychem]

Cycling refers to the establishment of nitrifying bacteria. True, there are other bacteria, such as heterotrophs, which will develop once there is a source of organic waste for them to consume, but these are not part of "cycling". In truth, FW tanks are not "cycled" they're "nitrified" since we don't establish nitrogen fixers or denitrifiers.

Ammonia does come from fish poo as it's decomposed, but the direct source from fish is through their gills. While we fix our ammonia in our kidneys - in the form of urea - fish simply secrete it to the water surrounding them.

[Kasakato]

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. The 'cycle' generally refers the part of the nitrogen cycle where ammonia is converted to nitrite which is converted to nitrate. It doesn't matter if the ammonia source is from fish respiration or from a bottle of ammonia. The bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite are ubiquitous and they will colonize a tank with ammonia content in the water.

It could be said that there are other microorganisms that must also establish themselves before a tank is established, but the nitrifiers are the most important as unoxidized ammonia is toxic.

Please refrain from contributing to posts on topics about which you have no information. Posting wrong information is worse than not posting...

Jim

:bowing: Thats how its done!

[cshepard]

After reading this entire thread, I think fishless cycling is the way I would like to go on my new tank. In my 90 gal. I eventually want to end up with about 7-8 full grown fancy goldfish, but as I live in a somewhat remote area I suspect that I will be finding the particular colours and varieties I want one at a time over a long time period, and on top of that they will most likely be small babies.
Here's my question: After the fishless cycling, if I only add one or two small fish to such a large tank, will the bacterial colony survive? Won't these fish produce too little an amount of ammonia to feed the bacteria? It sounds like the only way fishless cycling can be successful is by adding a full bio-load (i.e a lot of fish) so do I have no choice but to use a fishy cycle? Thanks everyone for this entire thread - most informative!

[Kasakato]

After reading this entire thread, I think fishless cycling is the way I would like to go on my new tank. In my 90 gal. I eventually want to end up with about 7-8 full grown fancy goldfish, but as I live in a somewhat remote area I suspect that I will be finding the particular colours and varieties I want one at a time over a long time period, and on top of that they will most likely be small babies.
Here's my question: After the fishless cycling, if I only add one or two small fish to such a large tank, will the bacterial colony survive? Won't these fish produce too little an amount of ammonia to feed the bacteria? It sounds like the only way fishless cycling can be successful is by adding a full bio-load (i.e a lot of fish) so do I have no choice but to use a fishy cycle? Thanks everyone for this entire thread - most informative!

No, the bacteria will be fine. Just be sure not to add to many fish at once after the first few. Maybe 2 a week.

But all the goldfish will get too big for the 90g. Try maybe 3 or 4 goldfish max. Let them grow to their full size of 1 foot, and be proud that you are saving these fish from small 10g tanks!

[Harlock]

After reading this entire thread, I think fishless cycling is the way I would like to go on my new tank. In my 90 gal. I eventually want to end up with about 7-8 full grown fancy goldfish, but as I live in a somewhat remote area I suspect that I will be finding the particular colours and varieties I want one at a time over a long time period, and on top of that they will most likely be small babies.
Here's my question: After the fishless cycling, if I only add one or two small fish to such a large tank, will the bacterial colony survive? Won't these fish produce too little an amount of ammonia to feed the bacteria? It sounds like the only way fishless cycling can be successful is by adding a full bio-load (i.e a lot of fish) so do I have no choice but to use a fishy cycle? Thanks everyone for this entire thread - most informative!
Kasakato pretty much summed it up. Depending on the size of the goldie, 7 or 8 couild be too many. Some of the fancies can stay around 6 inches, depending on the type. Some can get... well, at least twice as big. I'd get four adults in there first and see what it looks like. Also, about the bacteria dying you are correct. But, there is something to be aware of. Even though the "full bio-load" worth of bacteria die back to the 2 or 3 fish you start out with, you still have ALL of the right bacteria. You may have noticed the ammonia converters appear first in a newly cycling tank, then the nitrite converters, right? In your case, even if they die back and you add a fish at a time later, ALL the proper bacteria aer already in place and will simply begin to grow as the extra food source becomes available. You will experience what is known as a mini cycle. It's not nearly as drawn out as the first cycle, so you are in luck. Just be sure to keep testing the water daily and changing water as necessary while the mini cycle does its thing.

[JSchmidt]

I'm not sure I agree. If you cycle a tank so that it will process 5 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours, then you stock it with fish that produce 1/5 of that ammonia titer, the bacterial colony will slowly decrease in size. Adding more fish later will result in a mini cycle, because the ammonia production will have exceeded the biofilter's capacity.

One of the advantages of fishlessly cycling is that you can prepare the biofilter to handle a full bioload all at once. If your bioload is substantially smaller, the biofilter will die back some. It won't happen immediately, but I wouldn't go more than a 2-3 weeks unless I was OK with some die-off of the original biofilter.

Jim

[Kasakato]

JS- thats why I say to add them slowly. You may get a small spike under .5ppm. This is how people who did a fishy cycle add fish.

[cshepard]

Thanks for the info. It sounds like if I add 2" goldies one at a time over a period of several months, I should be fine. But I'm thinking that If I'm only going to have 3 or 4 goldies in that size tank, as per the advice, maybe I'll consider buying larger ones, all at once. Maybe mail order. I know "the Fish Sempai" ships large goldfish to BC. I'll have to do a thread search on mail order fish, see what people's experiences have been.

If I introduce three 5 - 6" goldies that should avoid any mini-cycles, I guess, especially if that's the limit! (I was also considering a bristlenose plec).

[Kasakato]

What will be best is a fishless cycle, and then fish. This way there is no chance of any mess up, and mini cycle.

[D4MI4N]

There is no way I'm reading through 8 pages of posts, so please bear with me if I'm being repetitive.

I am a big fan of fishless cycling. I am now (fishlessly)cycling a small (20gal) Tankanyikan shell-dweller tank. I decided to try out Hagen's Cycle in addition to normal procedure, ie:

1:bio-wheel filter from an established tank (year old tank, month old filter)
2:sand from same est. tank (about 2 cups)evenly distributed over new sand.
3:9 midsized plants: 3 anubias, 4 corkscrew val.s, 2 java fern

The ammonia levels tapered off after 5 days, absorbing 5ppm overnight thereafter. The nitites are still spiking, after almost two weeks now at reduced ammonia infusions.

I shudder to think what may have happened if I just thrown in a bottle of Cycle, and a bunch of fish, without properly cycling the tank.

Traditionally or fishlessly, do not rely on Cycle to cycle your tank.

[happychem]

Okay, I'm a little confused by this exchange between cshapard and Kas. Are we talking fishless or fishy cycling?

At the end of fishless cycling you fully stock your tank. Period. No more cycling, no "mini-cycle".

At the end of a fishless cycle your nitrification colony is as big as it's going to get. Ideally, you should have reached a point where colony size is limited by living space (i.e. surface area on filter media), not by food. After you add your full stocking level, which in theory should not be producing as much ammonia as 5ppm daily, the colony size will die off to match the available food supply.

If you don't fully stock you've essentially wasted the months you've put into fishless cycling. True, you've established a base colony, but you still find yourself back in the standard "add one or two fish every few weeks" situation. Why?

[happychem]

Wasn't that the point of his post?

[Kasakato]

Edit: Now, Im confused :hang:

[Kasakato]

Ok, forget it. Im leaving this one alone.

[wilson]

I'm looking for help on the fishless cycle, where is the info ? I thought this was a sticky because it was a guide.

this link (suggested in other threads) is not working:
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html

[Dragonmommy]

Oh boy. Ok first of all I am not new to fishkeeping, but cycling a tank is very new to me. See when i got my first tank the idiot at the ptestore told me nothing, thank god we were on a well or my fish would have died from the water i used alone!
That said... I have NEVER cycled a tank and have alwasy been successfull.
Right now I have a 10 gallon going, it was an emergency set up from my mother... she pulled a "I don't want this crap anymore" on me so I took the 10 gallon set up only to find 3 very sick goldies in her little pond, so I took them home to save them. No time for a cycle, so here I am cycling a tank with fish and lots of them. It was not planned. I did want 3 or four more feeders in the tank though so i sent hubby and 4 year old to the store for "a few feeders" what I got was almost 30 feeders (he asked for 1 dozen), an african cichlid, and 3 danios. Yay. Now I am doing daily 50% water changes just to save these poor fishies because the fish store would not take them back. Idiots.
Thats the last time i send hubby to the petstore.
So to solve the huge overstocking problem I scored a 55 gallong tank. Now I have to cycle it and quick. I tested it today, its watertight. My problem? I have no equipment for it so I cannot begin the cycle till I get a filter at the very least.
So here is my delima. Fishless cycle is more humane, but its a 6 week process. If I do it this way then I will continue with thie WAY overstocked 10 gallon tank till them. If i do a fishie cycle I can get many of these fish into the 55 gallon and get it going, but I may loose some. I really don't know what to do. My family really put me in a pickle here.
As for testing, nitrates ect... honestly i know nothing about it.
So since there are so many opinions here on how to cycle a tank I am even more confused. If YOU were in MY situation (need to have the 55 gallon going ASAP) how would you choose to do it? Fish cycle or fishless? I already have the fish needed.

As for the product cycle, I use it. I use it to reduce fish stress when doing water changes and stuff, dont know if it works but I feel that its not hurting. I didn;t used to use Cycle and had no problem

[pbrack]

When people say you can buy liquid ammonia at grocery stores, is there a certain product name that I should be looking for, and what does it do (does it clean surfaces...?). I don't which aisle to start looking for it.

[pitthull]

When people say you can buy liquid ammonia at grocery stores, is there a certain product name that I should be looking for, and what does it do (does it clean surfaces...?). I don't which aisle to start looking for it.

Just finished doing a fishless cycle on a 36g. I read all the articles, asked as many questions as I could, etc -- but the one big thing that no one answered well was WHAT do I use for the ammonia in the fishless cycle. The articles said PURE -- they also said that it should have ONLY ammonia and water as the ingredients, etc. The other real pickle was that no clear guidance on the amount to use was anywhere to be found.

My experience was a very good one -- happened to be in Walmart and walking past the cleaning section -- decided to see if they had PURE ammonia -- nope -- but they had something called CLEAR ammonia. House brand -- purple label, blue square on front with white letters -- has "Great Value" printed on it but I'm not sure if that is the brand or not. Above the UPC on back it says "Marketed by WAL MART". When I looked at the ingredients, it said "softened water, ammonia, and chelating agent." I didn't know what a chelating agent was -- but the articles said NO SURFACANTS -- this sounded different -- and I shook the bottle and got no foaming/bubbles (which the articles said was a must).

One article said to start with very small amounts and continue adding until I reached 5 ppm -- it seemed I would use up my entire testing kit just trying to find 5 ppm -- so I took another article's advice which said to start with 1/2 cup for a 50 gal -- I had a 36 gal so I used 3/8 of a cup -- my ammonia readings were 8+ ppm (off the scale on my test kit) but when the bacteria started to grow, it just had more to eat -- everything worked out fine with that. After the initial overdose, I experimented a little while continuing to feed ammonia and found that 25 mL gave me about 3 ppm of ammonia (measured 2 hours after introduction).

The other thing that I didn't see in ANY articles and freaked me out when it happened -- this "clear" ammonia clouded my water BIG TIME! Pea-soup-fog type of cloudy. I was sure I had messed up -- but in about 2 weeks, I had a serious bio-load of bacteria working.

Hope this helps those fishless cyclers -- I am THRILLED that I went that route -- and my fish seem very happy in their new home.

[happychem]

When I looked at the ingredients, it said "softened water, ammonia, and chelating agent." I didn't know what a chelating agent was --
A chelating agent is a large organic molecule made to bind other molecules or atoms.

They are added to ammonia because in the NH3 form ammonia can be gaseous and leave solution. So to prolong the shelf life they add chelates which bind the ammonia and keep it in solution.

[RobertA]

Huuhh! Could someone be kind enough to explain to me EXACTLY what a fish cycle is? I just got a new 20gal tank, the gravel and the water are already in there but I still need to get some fish...

Oh, and is it bad to put sea shels in the aquarium?

[daveedka]

I'm looking for help on the fishless cycle, where is the info ? I thought this was a sticky because it was a guide.



The info unfortunately is scattered about throughout 8 pages of responses and additional questions. It would be a shame to see this thread removed, but it is no longer an easy users guide to cyling fishless or otherwise.
Here are links to some articles that should get you through the process with some additional information provided as well.

http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=2&page=1

http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=3&page=1

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57791

http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=6&page=1



HTH
Dave

[bzehr]

This sticky is completely worthless. It is unorganized, incoherent and good information is sparse. Anyone looking to this thread for cycling information will only be more confused than when they found it. How about taking this down and starting over? Start it off with a strong informative opening post, like most of the other stickies in this forum.

[OrionGirl]

An article is actually in the works. Rather than just throw something up, though, it's being peer reviewed. I'd expect it to go online within the next few days. At that time, I'll pull this off, clean it up and consolidate the relevant bits, and put it in the archives. This is being kept up since it does HAVE the info needed, just not in a very organized fashion, meaning it requires a bit of effort to be helpful.

[loafy]

as a newbie, i totally agree.

[roadrashron]

I am currently cycling a new 75 gallon tank with 1 Chocolate Cichlid, 1 Green Terror, 3 Columbian cat sharks, and 1 common pleco in it. The ammonia and nitrites are high, I put the filter from their old tank with the biofilters on the new tank as well as the new filter, will this help it cycle? I figured that with the established Biofilters in the old filter that it would help displace the ammonia and nitrite levels.

[tomdkat]

One of the advantages of fishlessly cycling is that you can prepare the biofilter to handle a full bioload all at once.Is the implication here that one should be prepared to do a "full bioload" after completing a fishless cycle to minimize any die-off of bacteria (as they adjust to the actual bioload)? Would a fishless cycle be recommended if the aquarium will be stocked gradually?

Peace...

[tomdkat]

If you don't fully stock you've essentially wasted the months you've put into fishless cycling. True, you've established a base colony, but you still find yourself back in the standard "add one or two fish every few weeks" situation. Why?Well, I guess this answers my question. :)

As to the "why" asked above, I would want to stock the aquarium gradually so I could hand pick specimens, etc. I would research what I would want to ultimately keep together so I would be aware of compatibility issues and so on but I wouldn't necessarily want to add them all at once.

Also, how does the size of the fish added impact bacteria colony? So, I do a fishless cycle and plan on adding 10 fish to my 55g aquarium. I would most likely add "baby" fish since I would want them to grow. As they grow, they eat more and produce more waste, etc. If I stock a fishless cycled aquarium with all of the fish I intend to keep at the same time, won't there still be adjustment needed to the bacteria colony since I'm not necessarily adding adult fish?

Peace...

[tomdkat]

An article is actually in the works. Rather than just throw something up, though, it's being peer reviewed. I'd expect it to go online within the next few days. What's the status of this artcle?

Peace...

[happychem]

As to the "why" asked above, I would want to stock the aquarium gradually so I could hand pick specimens, etc. I would research what I would want to ultimately keep together so I would be aware of compatibility issues and so on but I wouldn't necessarily want to add them all at once
Actually, since there are still weeks to a couple of months required to cycle fishlessley you have lots of time to research and source potential inhabitants.

As for the article, I know that at least one of the reviewers is finished with the article, but it was a fairly substantial document and it will take some time for the author to work in all the revisions - especially if (like on my committee) some reviewers gave contradictory suggestions.

[111188]

Hi All,
I am a true newbie, just bought a 5 gal hex kit today. I just put washed gravel in, water, and chlorine remover, water. I am running the filter bio-wheel thing, and want to leave it run as long as necessary before I buy my fish, which will be a couple of small (1") goldfish I think. I have two questions. One is, I read above to buy some ammonia and add to tank. Do you mean regular ammonia or is there some kind of special aquarium ammonia, and how much to add to 5 gal? Two is does it matter whether I put in the charcoal packet in the filter during this cycling period? Told you I was new. Many thanks in advance :)

[happychem]

1 - Just make sure that the ammonia has no surfactants, detergents, or perfumes. The cheaper, the more likely it's what you're looking for. Try Walmart.

There's no way to know how much, it varies from bottle to bottle. Get test kits for NH3, NO2, and NO3, add a little bit of ammonia (keep track of how much you add) and measure the NH3 concentration resulting from it.

[Roan Art]

Hi All,
I am a true newbie, just bought a 5 gal hex kit today. I just put washed gravel in, water, and chlorine remover, water. I am running the filter bio-wheel thing, and want to leave it run as long as necessary before I buy my fish, which will be a couple of small (1") goldfish I think. I have two questions. One is, I read above to buy some ammonia and add to tank. Do you mean regular ammonia or is there some kind of special aquarium ammonia, and how much to add to 5 gal? Two is does it matter whether I put in the charcoal packet in the filter during this cycling period? Told you I was new. Many thanks in advance :)Just a note, but a 5 gallon tank is too small for a goldfish. They need at least a 20 gallon double-filtered tank, 30 gallons, double filtered, is better. That's just for *one* goldfish. Add 15 gallons for each additional. You're looking at a 35-45 gallon tank with filteration for a 90gallon tank.

Goldfish produce a lot of waste and as they grow -- depending on the type, about 6-8" -- you will have to do more and more water changes just to keep the ammonia and nitrites down.

One kept in a small tank like that might live a couple of years -- if you are lucky. If it's kept in a proper sized tank it could live 20+ years.

I'd like to suggest that you get a smaller fish, such as a betta. They are ideal for 5 gallon tanks.

Roan

[indiginess]

hey 00100110

ditto on the goldfish, many species can get well over a foot, and when people say 'they will grow to the size of the tank,' they mean 'it will live an uncomfortable and short life and you will never know the difference.'

happy chem is right about the tests... but, in my experience with Walmart ammonia directly:

in a five gallon tank, i would start with half a capful of the Wal-mart stuff a day, but for this process, you need a nitrIte test minimum (NO2). if you want an indication of how to get by with a nitrite test alone, just ask... takes some paper an pencil too, as happychem aluded to. record all readings you take for future use,especially if you use tests and are not completely sure what they mean. often the numbers make more sense in consecutive days.

after you make it through the cycling process and your tank is using all the ammonia daily, i might suggest a betta and some live plants (elodea or ancharis). if you are good about waterchanges, and really enjoy your tank, there are a few other fish that would work in a five gallon tank long term, but not many. chances are, though, people buy larger tanks the longer they are in the hobby (my first was a bowl, hehe... took me a while to understand why minnows died so quick, i mean, its just water right?)

you know, in all honesty, i havent read much of this thread, so if its just vague redundency, then i appologize.

:cool:



if you want to add something to the tank now, plants are fine during the cycling process. they will use small amounts of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates), but not enough to worry about.

edit: about the minnows, i was, like 7

[rrkss]

1 - Just make sure that the ammonia has no surfactants, detergents, or perfumes. The cheaper, the more likely it's what you're looking for. Try Walmart.

There's no way to know how much, it varies from bottle to bottle. Get test kits for NH3, NO2, and NO3, add a little bit of ammonia (keep track of how much you add) and measure the NH3 concentration resulting from it.

I've had success with pathmark brand clear ammonia with cost me $1.29 for a gallon. It took 3 capfuls to get my ammonia to 4 ppm in my 29 gallon and I have yet to lose a fish after the tank cycled though I did do a 100% water change after cycling the tank (my nitrates were well above 200 ppm after the fishless cycle).

[tomdkat]

Actually, since there are still weeks to a couple of months required to cycle fishlessley you have lots of time to research and source potential inhabitants.Ok, so during the cycle period if I go fish shopping (just to see what my local stores have) and I find what I consider to be a "perfect specimen" (after I've done compatibility research and have identified what I actually want to keep) do I ask the LFS to simply keep it at their store until my aquarium has fully cycled? Of course, I would pay for it, etc.


As for the article, I know that at least one of the reviewers is finished with the article, but it was a fairly substantial document and it will take some time for the author to work in all the revisions - especially if (like on my committee) some reviewers gave contradictory suggestions.Thanks for the update.

Another question for the group: given the length of this thread and the debating that has taken place, would two separate cycle threads be of benefit? Have a sticky "fishy cycle procedure" thread that gives an introduction to a fishy cycle method, followed by a step-by-step procedure, followed by additional notes/things to consider, etc. Then have another one for a "fishless cycle procedure". Then people can post their successes or problems with the method they chose and so on.

Whaddya tink?

Peace...

[happychem]

The document being discussed does contain step by step directions for the three most common methods for preparing a tank (are there more than three?). Although there is an understandable bias towards fishless. Frankly, I don't know why anyone would make the informed decision to do a fishy cycle, all other things equal, fishless is much less expensive, and isn't that the scale tipper in the end?

Most fish shops will gladly hold fish on reserve for you. Once you build a reputation and a relationship with the staff - managerial in particular - you may not be required to pay in advance and they'll hold it for you in good faith. It's really 6 of one in the end, but the advantage is that you can spot a fish and if you don't have the cash on you, or if you want to research it, you can ask them to hold it for you for a couple days so that you can research it or get the money together.

[tomdkat]

The document being discussed does contain step by step directions for the three most common methods for preparing a tank (are there more than three?).Ok, fair enough. :)


Frankly, I don't know why anyone would make the informed decision to do a fishy cycle, all other things equal, fishless is much less expensive, and isn't that the scale tipper in the end?I guess that would depend on how the fishy cycle was done. The presumption being it's "ok" to "sacrifice" the fish used for cycling purposes. The intent isn't to start a philosophical discussion on that in this thread but to address the question asked. :) I've done "fishy" cycles in the past so a fishless cycle is intriguing to me. :)


Most fish shops will gladly hold fish on reserve for you. Once you build a reputation and a relationship with the staff - managerial in particular - you may not be required to pay in advance and they'll hold it for you in good faith. It's really 6 of one in the end, but the advantage is that you can spot a fish and if you don't have the cash on you, or if you want to research it, you can ask them to hold it for you for a couple days so that you can research it or get the money together. Ok.

Peace...

[happychem]

Fishy cycles can be done safely and without "sacrifice" fish(I think that this thread has already debated it a few times), but it takes a lot of care and needs to be done very slowly. It's tedious, to say the least.

I agree, I prefer to avoid the philosophical discussions because they're usually based on intangibles. My biggest reason for supporting fishless for beginners and advanced hobbyists alike are cost (fishless is cheaper), ease (it's dead easy), and risk (you can't screw it up, all you lose is time).

[sloshy]

Cycle contains beneficial bacteria meant to break down waste(fish/organic) into ammonia then to nitrite and finally nitrate. I've found it to be useful at all times. Even after cycling it helps keep your tank clear by dissolving uneaten food, and sludge. I also use biozyme which contains ingredients to neutralize the harmful effects of ammonia on your fish while reducing the ammonia/nitrite with live bacteria, also cutting down the cycling time.

[happychem]

So did you copy/paste that from the label? Cycle contains the wrong species of nitrifiers for FW systems. Don't like that answer? Do your own research, start with DR. Chris Cow's PhD Thesis and work from there. Cycle does not have the correct species.

As for continued use, if it works properly then there shouldn't be a need for continued use. Therein lies the rub, clearly the manufacturers of Cycle have no interest in providing a proper and beneficial product, if they did it would take one use only.

Nothing "neutralizes the harmful effects of ammonia", that phrase is an expression, devoid of content, used only for marketing. A compound can bind ammonia (Prime, Amquel) or it can provide the proper strains of nitrifiers (Bio-Spira), but the harmful effectes of ammonia - gill burn and suffocation - are not something that can be neutralized.

As for dissolving uneaten food. If there's much uneaten food, you're feeding too heavily. Otherwise, the heterotrophs in your substrate should take care of the remenants and weekly maintenance should remove the "slugde" or mulm which is the result of heterotrophic decay.

[sloshy]

I've cycled without cylce or biozyme and lost fish. I did it with those and didn't lose one. I have a good memory so it may have sounded like I was reading from the container in my description, but it was also from my experiences in using them. Does the "binding" of the ammonia not make it less toxic?

[happychem]

Absolutely, however, the bottle should then say that it "neutralizes ammonia", not the harmful effects. The first statement is an accurate statement of what the product - reportedly - does, the second is a scare tactic.

[shediddily]

im wanting to cycle my 135 gallon..... i've used filter squeezings from my established aquariums ALOT of squeezings... and now the water is clear.... and i've got 20 or so guppies swimming around in there.... its been a week and my ammonia is at like 0 or mabey just above ... can't really tell ... the test comes out too clear.... and my nitrites are 0 or around 0.... i'm wondering if its established ??... or if it takes longer than a week for any ammonia to rear its ugly head???

[daveedka]

For the purpose of everyone here and elsewhere the Article finally did get edited and posted. Check the article forum at this link:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64301

Dave

[OrionGirl]

And, since the article summarizes everything, this is being retired to the archives.